Author Topic: India/Indian Ocean, India-China, India Afpakia  (Read 166383 times)

Crafty_Dog

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India's citizenship law
« Reply #350 on: February 26, 2020, 09:13:21 AM »
USCIRF's Biased Advocacy on India's Citizenship Law Tarnishes Its Image
by Abha Shankar
IPT News
February 26, 2020
https://www.investigativeproject.org/8318/uscirf-biased-advocacy-on-india-citizenship-law


ya

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Consquences of Inbreeding
« Reply #351 on: April 03, 2020, 06:36:37 PM »
This is serious stuff. Lots of videos on the web, peacefuls celebrating Corona virus, talking about intentionally infecting the populace in Europe, China, USA and India. In India, incidents of peacefuls beating up healthcare workers and doctors. sad...




MARC:  I've changed the subject line to make it easier to find.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2020, 07:46:46 PM by Crafty_Dog »

G M

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #352 on: April 03, 2020, 07:38:02 PM »
This is serious stuff. Lots of videos on the web, peacefuls celebrating Corona virus, talking about intentionally infecting the populace in Europe, China, USA and India. In India, incidents of peacefuls beating up healthcare workers and doctors. sad...



Darwin will figure in for a population with the peacefuls' typical levels of hygiene and medical care and the habit of marrying cousins.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-14209869


Now, if it can be sexually transmitted through goats, they are in big trouble!
« Last Edit: April 03, 2020, 07:53:16 PM by G M »

ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #353 on: April 25, 2020, 08:33:20 PM »
India China military force comparison. China cannot win, unless they go nuclear along with MAD.
https://www.belfercenter.org/publication/strategic-postures-china-and-india-visual-guide#footnote-045

Crafty_Dog

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US copters to India
« Reply #354 on: May 16, 2020, 12:50:48 PM »
Pasting YA's post on Afpakia here as well:
================
I wonder why the hurry   Might even have some disinfo in the article, re:delivery time line. I dont think it takes the US 3-4 years to make 21 helicopters!.

"WASHINGTON: The Indian and US governments were in such a hurry to get sub-hunting US helicopters into the hands of the Indian navy that the Americans gave up some of their own helicopters to fill a rushed delivery early next year."

https://breakingdefense.com/2020/05/us-navy-rushes-its-sub-hunting-helicopters-to-india-eye-on-china/

A second article on delivery of Rafales
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/iaf-to-get-first-batch-of-rafale-jets-by-july-end/story-7MsrcyBC38Jq0twGHmU7zH.html

It is not too difficult to connect the dots..as to where this is leading.

ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #355 on: May 21, 2020, 05:54:53 AM »
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/us-slams-chinas-disturbing-behaviour-at-india-border/articleshow/75857248.cms

Tensions are rising again with China. Either they are doing it to support Pak, who is getting beaten up at the LOC, or they are unhappy with India's support for investigation of the Wuhan virus at WHO.





ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #356 on: May 24, 2020, 06:47:46 AM »
The India-China standoff is not showing signs of dying down..both sides bringing in reinforcements. The current standoff is in the Pangong lake area.

Crafty_Dog

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ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #358 on: May 26, 2020, 05:55:11 PM »
I think China will have to back off...just like in Doklam. India is in no mood to humor the dragon.

They want India to stop building roads and infrastructure close to the border (after they have themselves done it for decades). India realized that not having border infrastructure prevented the chinese from invading india, but does not prevent salami slicing of indian territory. Also, the Chinese can reach the border in 15 min from their garrisons in the tibet plateau, whereas the lack of roads prevented India from reaching the border for days and in many cases by foot. As a result India has spent the last several years building border roads and the Chinese dont like it. This equalizes the situation.


ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #360 on: May 27, 2020, 05:36:41 PM »
India has a lot of fire power in ladakh region. Chinese will back off. They seem to miscalculate a lot. Thats what happens if you have not fought a war in decades.


G M

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #361 on: May 27, 2020, 06:35:35 PM »
I really would like to see the PLA get their ass handed to them.


India has a lot of fire power in ladakh region. Chinese will back off. They seem to miscalculate a lot. Thats what happens if you have not fought a war in decades.



ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #362 on: May 30, 2020, 06:16:49 AM »
The Modi govt has a muscular policy with respect to all borders. This is rattling Pak and the Chinese.

- They made articles 370 and 35 A void, effectively changing 70 years of negotiation strategy with pak. No more discussion on Indian Kashmir, only discussion on POK.
- Changed maps, reiterated claim on Aksai Chin (under Chinese occupation). Up to the early 1900's Chinese maps showed Aksai Chin as part of India, until Nehru the
  peacenik let the Chinese have the territory because "not a blade of grass grows there".
- Indian Home Minister has said in parliament, India willing to lose lives over POK and Aksai Chin. Similar statements by Defense minister, foreign minister, PM etc.
- Multiple statements on bringing back POK, which has the CPEC corridor going through.
- Strong complaints about Chinese construction activities in POK and opposition to building CPEC highways in POK.
- Started showing POK as indian territory and weather for that region.
- Rapid border infrastructure development, tons of roads, tunnels, airfields, new mountain strike corps, weapons purchases and development (subs, planes, artillery).
- Multiple dams being constructed to stop flow of water to Pak (allowed under Indus water treaty) of the  3 western rivers. Once this is done, the treaty will be scrapped since
  India is giving 80 % of the water to Pak of rivers that originate in India!!.
- Building dams in afghanistan to reduce water supply to Pak.
- Growing unrest on Pak's other borders, particularly Balochistan and also across the Durrand line.
- Indian LOC very, very hot. Very aggressive artillery and ATGM (anti tank guided missiles) use by India to take down pak bunkers and installations.
- The economy is bad at the moment, that is a particularly risky time wrt to war for all parties.
- Increased Indian and US pressure on pak to reign in proxies, Pak on FATF grey list, risk of blacklist.

At some point the pressures will become too much for someone and they will lash out.


ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #363 on: May 30, 2020, 07:44:07 AM »
Chinese propaganda video..its played at 1.5 x or so to give a sense of urgency. Nice music too.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1266731610688405504

Crafty_Dog

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GPF: India-China Standoff
« Reply #364 on: June 02, 2020, 12:41:39 PM »
   
Daily Memo: India-China Standoff Gets More Complicated

By: Geopolitical Futures

India’s frictions with its neighbors are becoming more entwined. The Pakistani and Chinese governments on Tuesday finalized an agreement on implementation of the Kohala hydroelectric power project within the framework of the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor, a series of infrastructure projects that seeks to improve economic regionalization. The CPEC passes through Pakistan-controlled Kashmir, and the Indian government has hotly contested the project and others like it. Though many CPEC projects remain stuck in the planning phases, this one has added importance given the current border tensions between India and China.

Indian and Chinese troops have reinforced their bases along the border, and there are reports that China has begun to fly J-11 and J-7 fighter aircraft within 30-35 kilometers (19-22 miles) of India’s Ladakh region. The U.S. government has been a vocal proponent of India in the standoff. Beijing responded by advising Delhi to be careful in its dealings with the U.S. and not to get sucked into the U.S.-China trade war and worsening bilateral relations. The announcement of the Kohala project is a reminder that China can also call upon allies like Pakistan to create more problems for India. Chinese military support for Pakistan is a much bigger concern to India than anything that happens in the forbidding terrain of the Himalayas.

ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #365 on: June 02, 2020, 05:43:20 PM »
Things are getting serious. The defense minister said this time things were "different" from before and India does not seek war, but will respond forcefully if needed. It turns out the Chinese got pushed back from Indian territory, and in turn they blocked one of the smaller rivers that arises in Tibet and enters India. This is a serious issue and portends trouble.  This is now out in the media and no government can stay quiet.

https://theprint.in/opinion/chinese-intrusion-in-galwan-lasted-for-two-weeks-before-it-was-cleared-by-indian-troops/428658/

Crafty_Dog

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GPF: Ladakh
« Reply #366 on: June 05, 2020, 03:38:42 PM »
June 5, 2020   View On Website
Open as PDF

India-China Border Standoff
Clashes along the Line of Actual Control have prompted a show of force on both sides of the border.
By: Geopolitical Futures
 
(click to enlarge)

On June 6, the lieutenant generals of the Indian and Chinese armies will meet in eastern Ladakh to try to defuse border tensions that have escalated over the past four weeks. Major generals from each side recently held three rounds of talks, none of which managed to end the standoff. It started in early May when some 250 soldiers patrolling on both sides of the border clashed near Pangong Tso. The incident prompted Beijing and New Delhi to dig in further; both countries sent troops and weapons reinforcements to the Line of Actual Control where they are now at a stalemate.

Since the 1962 Sino-India War, the two countries have regularly clashed along their shared border. There are still disputes over territory in Arunachal Pradesh and Ladakh, where the current standoff is taking place. The last major confrontation in eastern Ladakh occurred in 2013. Sikkim is another region where tensions have escalated, most recently in 2017. Both countries have sought to consolidate control along the border through major infrastructure projects, such as a new road India is constructing near the LAC. Beijing and New Delhi closely watch such projects, which often become the subject of hostilities. Challenging terrain, long-term goals and economic problems at home mean neither side has an appetite for war. Still, they also don’t want to be seen as backing down, so the region will remain tense.   




ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #367 on: June 05, 2020, 07:50:35 PM »
Tomorrow Lt.General level border talks with China, such high level talks are a rarity on the border. India will want China to withdraw and secondly India will indicate that they will not cease border road and infrastructure construction. After that one report about China stopping waters of one river, have not seen any discussion about that in the Indian media. Might have been misinterpretation of satellite images.

At this time the Indian govt is quite clear, they dont want war, but India will not back down. China will have to withdraw, looks like their salami slicing of Indian territory will work no more.

In related news the agreement with Australia to share bases has been signed. Secondly, India is debating whether to invite Australia to military exercises between US and Japan and India, i.e. become part of the QUAD military alliance. This will depend to some extent on whether China behaves or not. This year India has taken 2 steps which the Chinese did not like, 1. Asked the WHO to investigate the origins of the Chinese virus and 2. Sent envoys to the swearing in of the Taiwanese PM.


G M

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #368 on: June 05, 2020, 08:06:53 PM »
 2. Sent envoys to the swearing in of the Taiwanese PM.

Oh, that raised some blood pressure in Beijing.


ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #369 on: June 06, 2020, 06:07:13 AM »
The results of the border talks with the Chinese are not yet known. It will likely be a slow de-escalation process to save face. But below is a nice video of how the Chinese have grabbed territory over the last 60 years, when India did not have military or satellite resources. However, now the games up. There is no appetite on the Indian side to give up territory and they are willing to go to war if necessary. Even though the Chinese have overall superior military capabilities, what India has is huge public support to teach China a lesson, a patriotic battle hardened army and strong leadership. Not sure if the Chinese have won or fought any wars in the last 50 years, or whether their population has the motivation to fight India in Tibet with their supply lines stretched thin in the high Tibetan plateau avg altitude 14800 feet.

https://youtu.be/1AF4J8WL0Hg

ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #370 on: June 06, 2020, 10:28:09 AM »
The mood in India

ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #371 on: June 06, 2020, 03:36:12 PM »
The godless chinese dont do this, but few know that hindus always worship their weapons, whether a lowly machine gun (see soldiers above) or a fighter jet (see defense minister). In India going to battle has religious connotations.



ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #372 on: June 06, 2020, 04:05:20 PM »
Hopes no body minds my posting these pictures for educational purposes, but it is important for folks to know why the Chinese dont stand a chance. Hindus get a bad rap for worshipping a multitude of gods and goddesses. Two important females are Kali, the destroyer of evil and Durga the goddess of war, These are worshipped in India and Nepal (land of the gurkhas, who fight for India). Best to stay on the right side of these ladies.

Kali


Durga


DougMacG

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #373 on: June 06, 2020, 05:51:08 PM »
"Hope no body minds my posting these pictures for educational purposes..."

ya,  Your posts are phenomenal, exactly why I come here, learning important things I wouldn't otherwise know. 

G M

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #374 on: June 06, 2020, 06:10:46 PM »
"Hope no body minds my posting these pictures for educational purposes..."

ya,  Your posts are phenomenal, exactly why I come here, learning important things I wouldn't otherwise know.

Agreed.

Crafty_Dog

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #375 on: June 06, 2020, 09:07:01 PM »
Love your posts!  Carry on!

ccp

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #376 on: June 07, 2020, 10:02:51 AM »
Ya wrote:

"In India going to battle has religious connotations"

Well I always admired how India stopped Alexander the Great at its borders and put a stop to his empire expansion ~ 2300 + yrs ago.

ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #377 on: June 07, 2020, 07:23:17 PM »
While we wait for official word for the outcome of the Lt.General level talks, Chinese Global Times put out this psyops video. Soldiers from the plains of China catch a commercial flight to the Tibetan plateau at 14000 feet, catch a tourist bus and are ready to fight. Enjoy.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1269806349417943042

ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #378 on: June 09, 2020, 06:55:07 PM »
So China has agreed to with draw from 3 of the 4 locations. The 3 locations were not contested, so i wonder why they bothered to create a stand-off there. the 4th at Pangong lake is still under discussion, will take a round or more of talks.

Makes you wonder why they play these games...I can think of 2 possibilities.
1. pak is under a lot of pressure at the LOC, this was a good way to reduce pressure on pak. Interestingly, the LOC battles were even more intense these last few weeks.
2. China is concerned about India taking back POK, through which the CPEC/OBOR corridor passes. They probably want to indirectly discuss the fate of CPEC, were India to take back POK, or even flex muscles to dissuade India from doing that.

Infact, the quick backing down by China would suggest something is not right...

ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #379 on: June 12, 2020, 07:15:59 PM »
So the stand-off at Pangong lake continues. China is amassing soldiers and equipment at many parts of the 4000 km. India is matching equipment and men in all sectors. On the LOC with Pakistan, the beating of Pak has increased tremendously, its an almost war like situation with pak. Essentially all fighting corps have been activated.

India has also expedited road construction, infact they have just sent over 10,000 laborers for acclamitization.

Question is what is China's end game.


G M

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #380 on: June 12, 2020, 07:18:18 PM »
Long term: China as the global superpower.


So the stand-off at Pangong lake continues. China is amassing soldiers and equipment at many parts of the 4000 km. India is matching equipment and men in all sectors. On the LOC with Pakistan, the beating of Pak has increased tremendously, its an almost war like situation with pak. Essentially all fighting corps have been activated.

India has also expedited road construction, infact they have just sent over 10,000 laborers for acclamitization.

Question is what is China's end game.

ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #381 on: June 13, 2020, 07:22:07 AM »
One cannot be a super power without fighting wars !. Japan, US, Germany, UK etc have a history of fighting wars. Chinese luck with recent wars with Vietnam or even skirmishes with India in 1967, Nathu La and Cho La is not promising. They have a huge army, fancy weapons, a lot of money. What their soldiers lack is grit and determination to win, probably because they are not fighting for their motherland, but trying to snatch other people's territories.


ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #383 on: June 14, 2020, 07:37:34 AM »
For the last 50 years or so, no bullet has been fired on the China-India border. Only fist-fights and kung-fu. All it takes is one emotional soldier to fire the first shot and a blood bath could ensue. She Gin Ping perhaps drunk with power expects a short skirmish and victory, what will likely happen is a lot of blood shed and stalemate at best. The 4000+ km border has areas where India dominates the heights and areas where the Chinese dominate. India will capture some areas and the Chinese will do the same, they will end up exchanging territories...i.e. stalemate.

If things get really nasty, India can stop all Chinese sea traffic that must traverse the malacca straights to or from the middle east. The Indian subcontinent is a massive unsinkable aircraft carrier jutting into the Indian Ocean.

ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #384 on: June 16, 2020, 04:25:37 AM »
Looks like I spoke too soon. Casualties on both sides, details  murky. Some reports of Indian side doing a night reconnaissance on mountain heights.

Crafty_Dog

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #385 on: June 16, 2020, 09:56:09 AM »
Keep us posted please!

Crafty_Dog

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GPF
« Reply #386 on: June 16, 2020, 10:04:46 AM »
Daily Memo: Making Sense of India, China and North Korea
By: Geopolitical Futures

Actual deaths on the Line of Actual Control. Violent clashes broke out Monday in the Galwan Valley, a disputed area in the Himalayas on the border of India and China. Three Indian soldiers were killed when, according to China’s Foreign Ministry, they crossed into Chinese territory. India, of course, denied the claim. Details about the incident are unclear.

What we do know is that China and India have been engaged in a border standoff since the end of May. Since then, there have been multiple skirmishes followed by attempts to calm down. Remarkably, these are the first fatalities in the area (along what’s known as the Line of Actual Control) in more than 40 years — a period marked by repeated low-level clashes between the Indian and Chinese militaries. This speaks to the inherent difficulty of conducting major combat operations in one of the world’s most extreme geographic environments and the success Beijing and New Delhi have had in keeping small-scale incidents between them from escalating. (Troops stationed along the Line of Actual Control typically do not carry firearms, per protocols agreed upon by both sides.)

But even before Monday’s incident, there were signs that things were starting to change. Incidents are typically confined to a single disputed area, for example, but over the past month China has been pressing its claims in several areas across the Line of Actual Control. And infrastructure development by both sides has made it at least a little bit easier for the two militaries to flow troops and materiel to the front lines. Another major conflict in the Himalayas remains unlikely for the foreseeable future, but it’s an issue worth watching.

Crafty_Dog

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Stratfor
« Reply #387 on: June 16, 2020, 10:07:29 AM »
Clashes on the China-India Border Presage Intensifying Competition
3 MINS READ
Jun 16, 2020 | 14:46 GMT
HIGHLIGHTS
A deadly escalation between Indian and Chinese troops in the long-disputed territory of Ladakh could presage tactical and strategic escalation with major potential diplomatic, economic and political consequences for the two giants....

Three members of India's armed forces died in clashes with China's People's Liberation Army on the night of June 15 in the Galwan Valley area of Ladakh, Hindustan Times reported June 16. According to unconfirmed reports, the Chinese side also suffered an unspecified number of casualties. What caused the fighting, which involved stones and rods rather than firearms, remains unclear. Indian and Chinese officials both agreed to dialogue to deescalate matters, and India stopped short of accusing China of instigating the clashes. But a statement from China's Foreign Ministry accused Indian troops of crossing the border illegally twice and attacking Chinese personnel.
 
News of the clashes risks inflaming nationalist sentiment, already running particularly high amid the COVID-19 crisis, in each country. This is the first time Indian troops have died in clashes with the PLA since 1975, marking an unusual and potentially dangerous escalation in the disputed region of Ladakh and raising memories of the period of clashes up to and following the 1962 Sino-Indian War. Grassroots nationalist pressure might compel more aggressive action. But Beijing may well choose to tamp down nationalist rhetoric by closely controlling the domestic media narrative in a bid to keep its focus on its broader strategic priorities and to avoid fueling unrest.

Higher tensions and recent casualties raise the risk of additional clashes between individuals or small groups in the border area in the coming days and weeks, even if senior leadership wants to avoid them.

Even if a military deescalation on the border ensues, the underlying tactical and strategic factors driving Indian-Chinese tensions — among them the ongoing construction of military and civilian infrastructure near the disputed border — will continue. India, for example, reportedly transferred 1,600 additional workers to continue road construction in the region on June 16. Likewise, the higher tensions and recent casualties raise the risk of additional clashes between individuals or small groups in the border area in the coming days and weeks, even if senior leadership wants to avoid them.
 
Whether this incident leads to clashes and further escalation remains to be seen. China's growing economic and military might have changed the dynamic substantially, however, giving Beijing the confidence to assert greater control over this far-flung frontier region. As in the South China Sea, China has done so through a steady buildup of infrastructure and incremental expansion. It is not necessarily in China's strategic interest to use deadly force to achieve its aims — a move that could challenge global perceptions of a benign rising China. Instead, it may exercise restraint, ease tensions and refocus on other parts of the border. For India, the strategic calculations are tougher. China's years of incremental gains along the border present a greater dilemma. India is weaker, and China's territorial gains risk a steady erosion of its position that, if not firmly resisted, could lead to more substantial long-term losses in territory and regional influence.

ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #388 on: June 16, 2020, 06:37:55 PM »
So Indian sources claiming 20 Indian soldiers dead, along with around 43 Chinese dead.
One military journalist says this is what happened.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1272962811656732672.html

Weapons such as this were used, by 2 nuclear powers.


China of course will not reveal casualties, but the above numbers and account is what military journalists are saying. The Indian govt put out this info.


Govt of India is saying there will be no salami slicing.

Overall, this is a huge setback for Indo-Chinese relations. Interestingly, Modi is keeping his cards close to his chest, has not said a word in public, despite demands to speak to the nation. My guess is the  Chinese have been asked to withdraw to pre-crisis position. If they refuse, there will be kinetic action. True to prior form, he will likely speak once/if action has been initiated.

If the Chinese casualties are truly twice Indian casualties, there is a chance that peace can reign if they withdraw.


ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #389 on: June 16, 2020, 06:51:44 PM »
Here is Ashley Tellis from the USA who follows Indian military affairs.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EapBMKQX0AI_tci?format=jpg&name=900x900

Below is a nice article written 1 day before the big fight..
https://www.orfonline.org/expert-speak/simmering-boundary-new-normal-india-china-border-part-2-67806/
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 06:56:02 PM by ya »

DougMacG

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #390 on: June 17, 2020, 06:29:56 AM »
Picking this interesting piece out for further military strategy analysis:
quote author=ya
Weapons such as this were used by 2 nuclear powers.


Is it because both have full nuclear capability and deterrence that a conflict is fought at this level?

In US wars like Vietnam and Iraq, one side had nukes in reserve that provided zero value in deterrence because of unwillingness to use them.  It makes me wonder what value weapons have that we are unwilling to use against foes who are unafraid of taking massive civilian losses.


"If the Chinese casualties are truly twice Indian casualties, there is a chance that peace can reign if they withdraw."

   - Only for ego, pride and appearances sake would China care about taking 50 casualties.  If they don't escalate it is because they don't want to cause the Indian response to that.

On computer maps I see dotted lines or no lines for borders in that region.  Very strange to not know where one country ends and another begins.  You would think both sides would benefit from a negotiated solution.


« Last Edit: June 17, 2020, 06:33:39 AM by DougMacG »

G M

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #391 on: June 17, 2020, 02:53:22 PM »
I appreciate the role "The  Walking Dead" has in this conflict.

https://www.insider.com/walking-dead-negan-bat-lucille-2018-3


Picking this interesting piece out for further military strategy analysis:
quote author=ya
Weapons such as this were used by 2 nuclear powers.


Is it because both have full nuclear capability and deterrence that a conflict is fought at this level?

In US wars like Vietnam and Iraq, one side had nukes in reserve that provided zero value in deterrence because of unwillingness to use them.  It makes me wonder what value weapons have that we are unwilling to use against foes who are unafraid of taking massive civilian losses.


"If the Chinese casualties are truly twice Indian casualties, there is a chance that peace can reign if they withdraw."

   - Only for ego, pride and appearances sake would China care about taking 50 casualties.  If they don't escalate it is because they don't want to cause the Indian response to that.

On computer maps I see dotted lines or no lines for borders in that region.  Very strange to not know where one country ends and another begins.  You would think both sides would benefit from a negotiated solution.

ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #392 on: June 17, 2020, 05:37:55 PM »
The no guns rule was enforced 2km from the LAC for the China border. It is likely going to be re-examined, as things went from pushing and shoving to rocks and iron rods and clubs with barbed wires.

The barbarity of this conflict was immense. The story is that the Lt.Generals for India/China agreed on a withdrawl by both sides. At evening the Indian CO went unarmed to confirm that withdrawl had occured with a few Indian  soldiers. He found out that China had not withdrawn, infact they were constructing a structure on the Indian side. This led to an argument and he was met with a superior force, and clubbed to death. Soon thereafter, a larger Indian force came up and a free for all ensued for several hours and many Indian and Chinese soldiers were thrown down the slopes to their death.

Several published accounts indicate that this was a trap that the Indians walked into, the Chinese had numerical superiority. However, all accounts for some reason say that Chinese casualties were much higher. China has not acknowledged their casualties.

China is now making absurd claims that the Galwan area is theirs, which the Indian govt has rejected as "exaggerated and untenable".

ccp

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Ya
« Reply #393 on: June 17, 2020, 05:47:34 PM »
so not knowing the history of this area
what is your opinion about who is right or has the most legitimacy to this area

India or China?

ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #394 on: June 17, 2020, 06:48:59 PM »
The area is unmarked, but the territory belonged to India after the British left in 1947 as the state of Jammu and Kashmir had joined India. I dont know the history before that, but even then it was never Chinese territory. In those days, India was resource poor and the Indian army never patrolled that area very much. It was almost 10 years later that India found out that the Chinese had constructed a road through Aksai Chin. The war of 1962 ensued, it was a war where India took a lot of casualties and lost. The Indians were not properly equipped with weapons or even warm clothes.

China occupied Aksai Chin as multiple maps from 1962 show that. The problem is that even after occupying that huge chunk of land, they have continued to nibble away Indian territory during successive weak Indian  governments for the last 60 years. Infact today's map is very different from the original map after 1962 and they have continued this unopposed until last month. Now we have a nationalist government under Modi and this will stop.

China has had it relatively easy since most of their infrastructure and road construction is on the plains of Tibet, the Indian side has to deal with mountains and they did not build roads as the thinking was that the mountains were a natural barrier.

As India builds roads, the Indian side can monitor Chinese activities with satellites and can challenge them very quickly. Previously, it could take weeks to even reach the border and heavy supplies could not be transported.

So you may wonder, why we do not demarcate the border ?. China does not want to, because it can continue to nibble away territory !. China will not even exchange maps.

Below is a moving and firm speech by Modi in response to the Galwan incident. Its in Hindi, but you may appreciate his resolve and seriousness. I doubt very much the Chinese will get away with it this time. On June 19th, he is holding an All Party Meet to apprise the opposition of the situation.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1273295720729022464

I think India will need to respond this time, unless there is unequivocal withdrawal from the Chinese side. If India does not respond, the same will occur again and again.

The govt has started to act, the Chinese are now out of the big 5G contract as well as other construction contracts.


Crafty_Dog

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GPF
« Reply #396 on: June 17, 2020, 08:53:26 PM »
second post

    Daily Memo: Clarity on the Himalayan Skirmish, More Confusion in Korea
The details of the deadly India-China brawl still aren't great, but at least it didn't involve guns.
By: Geopolitical Futures

Sticks, stones and 15,000-foot cliffs. As it turns out, the first casualties since 1975 in the India-China Himalayan standoff came not from a firefight, as assumed. (This is important, as it would have meant one or both sides had broken a mutual protocol that bars troops in the area from carrying firearms, potentially presaging a dangerous break from the historical pattern.)

Rather, it appears the mother of all brawls broke out in the disputed Galwan Valley when, at least per Indian media, Chinese troops “trapped and encircled” an Indian patrol of some 120 troops in an area China had previously agreed to vacate. The melee, which lasted some six hours, involved stones, iron rods and “nail-studded clubs.” Some of the reported 20 Indian troops who died reportedly fell to their deaths off a 15,000-foot cliff. Others died from their injuries and/or exposure as nightfall brought with it subzero temperatures. Indian media and U.S. intelligence are claiming that there were as many as 43 Chinese casualties as well, and Beijing has hinted that this was indeed the case, without confirming it. (In past conflicts, China did not provide official casualty counts for years or even decades afterward.)

The schoolyard nature of this clash will ostensibly make it easier for cooler heads to prevail than if one side or the other had broken the weapons protocol. Nevertheless, India did increase its security presence at its Uttar Pradesh, Uttarakhand and Kashmir borders as a precautionary measure. The two countries’ foreign ministers held talks on Wednesday, and both sides are calling for de-escalation, though neither side has hinted at a willingness to compromise on its core claims. Either way, this is your daily reminder that combat is a pitiless business (with or without modern weaponry), and geography unforgiving.

DougMacG

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #397 on: June 18, 2020, 07:04:30 AM »
Galwan Valley, Ladakh: A cut-paste location to help me find it on maps.

quote author=ccp
so not knowing the history of this area
what is your opinion about who is right or has the most legitimacy to this area
India or China?
(Well answered already by ya)
From where I sit, formerly secure Upper Midwest US location, China has been behaving in an expansionist mode on all fronts lately.  India until Modi was not even defending its existing territories. China lies; India claims have turned out to be truthful.

The major US bias in this is that if China's expansion is the threat of our time and all our other adversaries of us lean to their side, having India as our ally (along with most of the countries of Asia and Pacific Rim) is of utmost importance.

What does China want from that region, natural resources, a trade route??

 https://amp-cnn-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/17/asia/india-china-aksai-chin-himalayas-intl-hnk/index.html?amp_js_v=a3&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=15924884988291&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2020%2F06%2F17%2Fasia%2Findia-china-aksai-chin-himalayas-intl-hnk%2Findex.html

G M

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Most Chinese thing ever!
« Reply #398 on: June 18, 2020, 08:15:55 PM »
[img]  [http://ace.mu.nu/archives/china.jpg/img]

Crafty_Dog

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GPF: Why the Himalayas are worth fighting for
« Reply #399 on: June 19, 2020, 05:13:27 AM »
June 19, 2020   View On Website
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    Why the Himalayas Are Worth Fighting For
The ocean is the reason Chinese and Indian soldiers have died over this rugged, seemingly irrelevant piece of land.
By: Phillip Orchard

It says quite a bit about the sheer improbability of a major China-India war in the Himalayas that this week’s deadly clash in the Galwan Valley – which produced the first fatalities along the disputed high-altitude border since 1975 – played out the way it did. No shots were fired, no explosives detonated. Rather, it was just two nuclear powers going at it the old-fashioned way: with fists and clubs and whatever else their troops could find lying around. The 20-odd Indian soldiers and their two dozen or so Chinese counterparts who reportedly lost their lives are believed to have done so by falling off a cliff and/or into a river turgid with spring snowmelt. The unforgiving terrain impeded rescue efforts on both sides, leaving the wounded exposed to sub-zero temperatures.

Both China and India have been building out ambitious networks of roads and outposts in order to be able to bring substantial firepower to the frontline. Yet, evidently, neither side is capable of truly taming the unforgiving geography of the Himalayas to the extent needed to conduct complicated operations, much less stage an overland invasion into the other’s heartland. But this doesn’t mean that the high ground isn’t strategically important, or that the soldiers died merely in defense of national honor and abstract notions of sovereignty over barely inhabitable land. Its value just needs to be understood in the context of the broader competition between China and India.
 
(click to enlarge)

Big Mountains, Big Problems

The difficulty of extreme-altitude combat is hard to overstate. There are, obviously, unpredictable weather patterns, extreme temperatures and treacherous roads. With enough grit, gear and engineering, some of these obstacles can be overcome. But the Himalayas are so tall and so steep that communications breakdowns are inevitable, resupply helicopters can become useless, and commanders are stuck with the unsavory prospect of moving troops and supply convoys through an endless series of exposed chokepoints. Even in the best of circumstances, moving personnel in from the lowlands is a weekslong process. In the 1962 India-China war, for example, an estimated 15 percent of troops India rushed to the frontlines developed severe altitude sickness. A fighting force is only as good as its supply lines, and the Himalayas are a logistical nightmare.

Along the Line of Actual Control, the loosely defined border between Indian and Chinese territories, this environment creates low-level instability by putting a premium on controlling key chokepoints and areas conducive to infrastructure development. This is why many standoffs over the past decade have typically been triggered by attempts from one side or the other to build new roads or bridges. But it also creates high-level strategic stability, since the probability for escalation to an all-out conventional war is extremely low. In a way, the LAC provides a safe space for the two nuclear powers to work out their differences – to signal displeasure over unrelated issues, to please nationalists at home, to keep their armies well-trained and preoccupied with matters other than politics, and so forth – without risking catastrophe.

But there’s more at stake. China has relatively few direct strategic interests in dominating the Himalayas. It doesn’t rely on them as a trade route or consider them a source of resources (except the headwaters of its major rivers, which it comfortably controls). Still, they are valuable to China in two main ways: One is as a defense against a foreign force from meddling in Xinjiang and Tibet; keeping its buffer zones intact is a core Chinese imperative, even if India is a long way from having either the capability or reason to want to make a move on the Tibetan plateau. The second is how the Himalayas can take India’s attention away from where it can truly threaten China: the ocean.

The High Seas

India should be a maritime power. It inherited invaluable naval expertise from the British. It sits astride the world’s busiest sea lanes. It does little overland trade with any of its neighbors. Its prosperity relies on distant markets in Europe and the U.S., and, even more so, on unhindered imports of energy from the Middle East. And with a robust navy, it could exploit an immense geographic advantage over China on the high seas. China’s foremost external challenge is its own reliance on trade, most of which flows through chokepoints along the first island chain and the Strait of Malacca. Though it’s rapidly developing a bluewater navy, and though it’s investing heavily in the so-called “string of pearls” – a network of ports built along the Indian Ocean basin under the purview of the Belt and Road Initiative – China is decades away from being able to credibly threaten critical Indian supply lines. India, in contrast, is ideally positioned to do just that to China. Everything China sends to Europe and imports from the Middle East flows right by the subcontinent. And India’s superbly located Andaman and Nicobar islands to the east in the Andaman Sea theoretically enable it to shut down the mouth of the Malacca Strait – particularly in joint operations with the U.S. and/or Australia.
 
(click to enlarge)

The problem for India is that it’s had a devil of a time shifting resources from its army and air force to the navy. While it’s been touting grand plans for a 200-ship navy by 2027 (up from 130 today) and quietly laying the groundwork for its own “string of pearls” in the Middle East and Southeast Asia, the navy is still getting just 15 percent of this year’s budget, compared to 23 percent for the air force and 56 percent for the army (the bulk of which goes to pensions). The navy’s share of the pie is actually down from 18 percent in 2012. India’s efforts to turn the Andaman and Nicobars into a major deterrent are still in the very early stages. In January, India’s chief admiral effectively admitted defeat on the navy’s shipbuilding goals. Simply put, a bluewater force can’t be built cheaply. The economic fallout from the COVID-19 pandemic won’t make things any easier.
 
(click to enlarge)

China has every intention of keeping India bogged down on land. The main way it’s doing so is through its vast military and economic support for Pakistan – support that has the added benefit of denying militants access to Xinjiang and, potentially, the development of a naval base at Gwadar or farther east. But it’s also a way to ensure that India remains overwhelmingly focused on Kashmir.

Deterring China in the Himalayas is a comparably lesser concern for India. But China doesn’t need to do a lot to ensure that New Delhi continues devoting manpower and resources to the theater. Though China cannot credibly threaten the Indian heartland from the Himalayas, it could use the high ground to destabilize certain strategically vulnerable areas of India. The disputed region in the west, for example, overlooks Pakistan. The one in the east overlooks the Siliguri Corridor – the 14-mile wide belt connecting West Bengal to India’s restive northeastern provinces – potentially giving China the leverage that comes with the ability to sever India in two. And while China also needs to prioritize the needs of the navy over those of the army, its Himalayan investments are comparatively easier to stomach. It has deeper pockets, superior infrastructure expertise, a desire to keep the People’s Liberation Army busy, and a geographic advantage from being able to stage operations from the Tibetan plateau rather than the Indian lowlands. As a result, India has always felt like it was at an inherent disadvantage. In this light, it’s notable that Chinese forces have deviated from their historical pattern by trying to pressure India in multiple disputed areas all at once, effectively tempting India to devote even more resources and manpower to the mountains.

The risk for China is that its coercion in the Himalayas encourages India to further embrace the Quad partners (the U.S., Japan and Australia) and to deepen its strategic engagement with key Southeast Asian nations such as Indonesia, Vietnam and Singapore. But this was probably inevitable since the Chinese and Indian spheres of influence increasingly overlap. China has no choice but to try to secure its interests in the Indian Ocean basin, making India feel increasingly encircled and willing to shed its cherished predilection for nonalignment. Beijing’s only real option is to find ways to prevent India from playing a meaningful role in a coalition aimed at containing China’s rise on the high seas. Brawling in the high Himalayas is one such way.