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Messages - milt

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1
It is well within bounds to say that "I think this war was/is a mistake.  I don't think we can win.  I think we should come home".    To say that "I hope we fail" --

Which means what to you, exactly?  What would our "failure" look like?

Quote
which is how it is heard when you say "I oppose our victory"-- is something else altogether.

Again, what is a US "victory" in this context?

The terms are so abstract that it's possible you and Rog are thinking of different scenarios when you use those terms.

But the real question is why do you guys want to make such a big deal out of some comment he made and have this huge f-ing debate about it?  Why is that so much more interesting to "the right" than sticking to the original subject?

-milt

2
I have two family members in harm's way in the GWOT. One on an aircraft carrier in the Persian Gulf, the other a member of a Marine rifle company engaged in combat operations as we speak.

And if it were up to me they'd be home right now.

Quote
What's your investment in our losing?

What's yours?

Your relatives can get injured or killed whether or not we "win" this war.  It's not like "losing" the war means all our soldiers are dead.  But this is obvious, and you're not stupid, so why am I even having to explain it?

In any case, I want them out of harm's way.  You're the one who seems to want to keep them there.

Quote
Who's over the line?

This is just supposed to be a political discussion, "friends at the end of the day," and all that.  But you guys insist on making it personal.  Every post is full of snide comments and cheap shots against "the left" and the conversation inevitably turns into an attempt to smear your opponents as Communists and/or traitors.  Anything but sticking to the subject.

I'll give this forum one more shot if you want to just forget all this and start fresh, but I've grown weary of all the bickering.

-milt

3
We are fighting a war for our very survival.  Maybe it will take the deaths of people you care about to wake you up to this. I can't appeal to your patriotism, being a good leftist, you have none, so I guess it'll come down to when you find some sort of personal stake in the war.

You just crossed the line.

-milt

4
Politics & Religion / Re: The 2008 Presidential Race
« on: June 18, 2007, 05:55:57 PM »
Because the tax "intended" for the business gets passed on to the consumer, most seriously affecting those on the lower end of economic status.

I'm not buying it.  I could just as easily say that my income taxes are "passed on" to my employer in the sense that they have to pay me more than they would otherwise in order to cover that extra amount I have to pay the government.

Anyway, I'm not sure what this has to do with "The 2008 Presidential Race" anymore.   :-)  There's got to be a "taxes" thread or something we could move this to.

-milt

5
Politics & Religion / Re: The 2008 Presidential Race
« on: June 18, 2007, 03:15:32 PM »
Which harms the poorer would-be consumer the left allegedly cares so much about.....

What does this have to do with whether or not a business can be taxed?

-milt

6
Politics & Religion / Re: The 2008 Presidential Race
« on: June 18, 2007, 02:46:36 PM »
You can't tax a business, big or small. You can try, but all you do is pass on the tax to the consumer.

They can try passing it on to the consumer, but they won't sell as many units when they increase the price.

-milt

7
Politics & Religion / Re: Libertarian themes
« on: June 15, 2007, 11:27:23 AM »
C'mon, libertarian doesn't mean anarchist.  It means govt limited to certain functions (e.g. protection of property rights such as copyright in a DVD.)  Our Founding Fathers were libertarians.  In their essence, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights were and are libertarian.

There's no mention of "intellectual property" in any of those documents and I don't think it was even recognized until the mid 1800s, so we probably shouldn't mix that one in there with libertarianism or the Founding Fathers.  However, we might note that the FFs did in fact recognize the right to own "human property."

But anyway, I specifically took issue with your use of the term "free market," when you didn't really mean it.  In a truly free market, Kellogg's would be able to sell Frosted Flakes "frosted" with crack and wouldn't have to tell you.  Do you like the current situation where corporations are required by law to list ingredients and nutritional information on food products?  Or is that just another example of "big government" butting into our lives and the labeling should be voluntary?  Should people be able to sell their organs?  What about child labor and workplace safety laws?  More needless government interference?

Yes, I do believe that the FFs were libertarian and I myself subscribe to mostly libertarian principles, believe it or not, but I don't trust corporations as much as you seem to.  You obviously agree on the need for some government regulation, I think we just disagree on the details.

-milt

8
Politics & Religion / Re: Media Issues
« on: June 15, 2007, 09:36:07 AM »
Doug:

In the late 60s-early 70s I thought I was a leftist.  Then in 1975 I went back to college and took my first economics course.  What a revelation!  What I discovered I had been all along was pro-freedom and that , , , drum roll please , , , I was a libertarian.  Free minds and free markets!!!

Oh come on, Marc!

How about I open a liquor store next to your house?  Or maybe I'll duplicate all the Dog Brothers DVDs and sell them myself.  Then we'll see how much you like free markets.

Or did you mean government "regulated markets?"

-milt

9
Politics & Religion / Re: The 2008 Presidential Race
« on: June 15, 2007, 09:15:33 AM »
The US Constitution defines the role of government. Feeding, housing and providing healthcare aren't the job of gov't. Uncle Sam isn't your daddy and mommy.

Let them eat cake?

-milt

10
Politics & Religion / Re: Venezuela
« on: June 11, 2007, 08:28:53 AM »
It's a simple question. What's your problem with me asking it?

This particular thread is about Venezuela.

-milt

11
Politics & Religion / Re: Venezuela
« on: June 09, 2007, 08:19:17 PM »
Rogt,

Is there ANY leftist totalitarian you aren't willing to defend? Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Castro? Anyone?

Sticking to the merits of the arguments, I see.

-milt

12
Politics & Religion / Re: The 2008 Presidential Race
« on: June 02, 2007, 12:02:41 PM »
Woof Milt:

In a very unprofitable period of my life,  :cry: I followed surfed the peak of the NAZ boom and crashed and burned along with it.  During this time I followed the Gilder Technology Report and related readings.  My impressions on this issue were formed during that time.  As can be seen from some of the threads on the SCH forum here, I retain an interest.

Marc

Woof,

Fair enough, but I get the idea that the only ones interested in importing these extra workers are high tech investors and executives that want to cut labor costs.

-milt

13
Politics & Religion / Re: The 2008 Presidential Race
« on: June 02, 2007, 10:58:02 AM »
Whatever the reason, our high tech sector desparately needs these people and our country desparately needs a strong high tech sector.

What is the evidence that our high tech sector desperately needs these people?

-milt

14
Fine. I retract my original statement.

I'll add that I THINK that it is a logical to believe the people on the above list believe supporting Israel is important for religious reasons due to the huge amount of time I've spent involved with fundamental Christians.

I'll also add that I can't prove my original statement with journalism right now.

I also THINK that the Christians in this country are as dangerous as Islamic people everyone is up in arms about. I think that we are prone to violence against them and will seek out logic to support our war against them because of the Christians in this country. I think that we are happy to find logical reasons to fight wars with Israel's enemies because of our dominant religion.

I think that a wave of thought that supports violence can sweep through our country like a brush fire, with or without provocation, and that while we aren't as vocal as they are because we have a fancy way of talking, our high position and our weapons means it takes less to do more.

Poor Muslims scream and ache for violence and the west suffers some train bombings and 9/11. America sneezes and destroys Iraq. We have more power so I believe we have a higher calling to compassion and logic but our leaders were chomping at the bit to get into Iraq. We will fight in more places before long, all of which are a threat to Israel and I think we have our religious people to thank for getting the ball rolling.

Iraq, Iran, Muslims in general may have made some mistakes with us, but I THINK that if you could take away everything evil they ever did to US, we would be hovering over them, just waiting for an excuse.


Well put!

-milt

15
Politics & Religion / Re: Environmental issues
« on: March 02, 2007, 08:37:46 AM »
Milt avers:

Quote
Only those that start with the premise that GW is BS will find the contrary evidence (from questionable sources) compelling.

Uhm, horse feces.

Hey, don't take my word for it.  Like I said, anyone can do the research themselves, check your data/sources and mine, and draw their own conclusions.  They can also look back in this thread and see the numerous times I've tried to draw you into a scientific discussion, and each time you come up with some lame excuse and disappear for a while.

So go ahead and call me all the names you want, it won't change the facts, but I'm done wasting my time debunking every article you post.

-milt

16
Politics & Religion / Re: Environmental issues
« on: February 28, 2007, 12:04:41 PM »
As for the merits of [Gore's] documentary, that has been discussed already.  Glad you agree his credentials are overblown.

I haven't seen the movie and don't need to.  Anyone wishing to do the global warming research on their own will come to the same conclusion when examining all the evidence (on all sides).  Only those that start with the premise that GW is BS will find the contrary evidence (from questionable sources) compelling.

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/index/

-milt

17
Politics & Religion / Re: Politically (In)correct
« on: February 26, 2007, 12:06:28 PM »
Lastly, I reject the inflation of homosexuality to the same status as race.

Tell it to some gay teenager who's taunted and gets called "faggot" or worse every day at school.  If anything, it's religion (which is 100% choice, unlike race or sexual preference), that shouldn't be at the same status as race.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, but these groups who "condemn" homosexuality are no better than the other bigots our country has dealt with in the past and history will judge them just as harshly.

-milt

18
Politics & Religion / Re: Politically (In)correct
« on: February 24, 2007, 07:04:24 AM »
Does this mean you support banning t-shirts supporting Hamas and Hezbollah because of their known anti-semitism?

I guess I'd have to see the particular shirt before I decide.

But why are you asking me this question, rather than asking buzwardo if he would back the rights of Hamas and Hezbollah to wear "politically incorrect" t-shirts?  I want to know if these supposed crusaders for free speech will stand up for campus anti-semites and other such groups or if they only support the gay bashers.

-milt

19
Politics & Religion / Re: College Speech Police, II
« on: February 23, 2007, 05:16:56 PM »
One of the PC campus’s worst excesses in suppressing unwanted speech is the drive by gays and their allies to banish or break Christian groups for their traditional beliefs on sexuality. Some 20 campuses have acted to de-recognize or de-fund religious groups that oppose homosexuality (as well as nonmarital sex), often accusing them of violating antidiscrimination rules—that is, refusing to let gays be members, or allowing them to belong but not serve as officers.

Free speech doesn't mean we have to give a platform to bigots.  How is any of this different from de-funding a campus KKK group, or ordering a student to remove an anti-semitic t-shirt?

-milt

20
Politics & Religion / Re: The War on Drugs
« on: February 16, 2007, 09:57:26 AM »
IMHO the WOD is a tremendous foolishness that is both counter-productive and counter to basic American values of live and let live. 

I'm with you 100% on this one, but I have some concerns.

I'm all for people being able to legally purchase whatever recreational drugs they want, but I want draconian restrictions on the producers.  Do you really want corporations devoting millions of dollars to huge marketing and advertising campaigns designed to convince everyone to buy marijuana, cocaine, MDMA, or whatever?  I'm not saying these drugs are any worse than cigarettes and booze (they aren't), but they obviously aren't for everybody.

Does it have to be all or nothing?  Either they're completely illegal or we have to allow heroin vending machines in every school or we'd be violating the drug companies' rights to free speech?  I say make it all legal, but allow zero advertising.

-milt

21
Politics & Religion / Re: Contraritans Three
« on: December 15, 2006, 10:54:27 AM »
Universities, with their culture of academic freedom, civil debate and the open exchange of ideas, should celebrate the mavericks, the dissenters, the iconoclasts and the naysayers.

BS.  Or is the author arguing that universities should host conferences such as the recent one in Iran that questions the Holocaust, give a voice to flat earthers, the KKK, etc. all under the banner of being tolerant of different ideas?

Quote
This past spring the little magnolia tree in Tim Patterson's front yard produced an abundance of flowers. Ottawa is well north of the typical range for magnolias, but if the winter is relatively mild, as it was this past year, the tree does well. A harsh winter and the little tree struggles.

With the advent of global warming, you'd think Dr. Patterson's magnolia has a secure future. But Dr. Patterson, a geology professor at Carleton University, doesn't believe the Earth's climate is warming. The theory of manmade climate change due to greenhouse gases is incorrect and outdated, he says. "I don't get excited about what climate modelers are saying."

Okay, why is it incorrect?  This article doesn't say.

Quote
Dr. Patterson, whose specialty is paleoclimatology, is well aware that his views on climate change place him in a minority within the scientific community. But if he's feeling the heat, he doesn't show it. "As a scientist I can only go where the science takes me, and not where someone like David Suzuki wants me to go." When he does get criticized, it's rarely about the science, he says, but rather is an "ad hominem attack of some sort, like 'Patterson's in the pocket of Big Oil.' Well I wish!"

I'd like to criticize him on the science, but I have yet to see any of it mentioned in this article.

Quote
Dr. Patterson may take comfort in the fact he's not entirely alone in his views. A number of colleagues share his position, including Fred Michel at Carleton, and Jan Veizer and Ian Clark at the University of Ottawa, among others. "At these [two] institutions, climate researchers who agree with my perspective on climate change actually outnumber the alarmists," he says.

So they agree with Patterson, but what is their scientific argument based on?

Quote
What these scientists essentially agree on is that the Kyoto Protocol is pointless because carbon dioxide emissions are not driving climate change. The computer models are simply wrong and do not match actual observations.

That goes against all the research I've found.  It's too bad he doesn't actually mention which models or what was being observed.

Quote
Instead, Dr. Patterson points to solar variability -- changes in the sun's solar cycle -- as the likely culprit. The sun experiences an 11-year sunspot cycle as well as much longer cycles of solar activity, and these trends in the sun's output correlate well with temperature records dating back hundreds of years, he says.

I'd like to see the data.

Quote
Asked how the scientific community, the media and Al Gore could get the story so wrong, Dr. Patterson says it's mainly because the debate has become so politicized. Environmental activists have taken what should be rational scientific debates and turned them into occasions for "evangelizing and antagonizing," even though "they don't really know what they're talking about."

Total dodge.  He's asked about the "scientific community" and responds with some criticism of activists, who may or may not know what they're talking about.

-milt

22
Politics & Religion / Re: Environmental issues
« on: December 11, 2006, 10:42:42 AM »
Would both of you please be so kind as to provide at least a 1-4 sentence summary of each URL you cite? 

Thank you

I just added some descriptive quotes to the original post:

http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?topic=976.msg8560#msg8560

-milt

23
Politics & Religion / Re: Environmental issues
« on: December 08, 2006, 11:02:37 AM »
1. The data set is too small to create meaningful extrapolation.

Global mean surface temperature from the past 100 years:
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/fig2-1.htm
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/2005/

"Global annual surface temperature relative to 1951-1980 mean based on surface air measurements at meteorological stations and ship and satellite measurements for sea surface temperature."

"The highest global surface temperature in more than a century of instrumental data was recorded in the 2005 calendar year in the GISS annual analysis. However, the error bar on the data implies that 2005 is practically in a dead heat with 1998, the warmest previous year."

"Record warmth in 2005 is notable, because global temperature has not received any boost from a tropical El Nio this year. The prior record year, 1998, on the contrary, was lifted 0.2C above the trend line by the strongest El Nio of the past century.  Recent warming coincides with rapid growth of human-made greenhouse gases. Climate models show that the rate of warming is consistent with expectations"



From http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/borehole/borehole.html:
"Borehole data are direct measurements of temperature from boreholes drilled into the Earth crust. Departures from the expected increase in temperature with depth (the geothermal gradient) can be interpreted in terms of changes in temperature at the surface in the past, which have slowly diffused downward, warming or cooling layers meters below the surface."

Borehole data for past 500 years:
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/pollack.html

"Underground temperature measurements were examined from a database of over 350 bore holes in eastern North America, Central Europe, Southern Africa and Australia. Using this unique approach, Pollack et al. found that the 20th century to be the warmest of the past five centuries, thus confirming the results of earlier multi-proxy studies."

"The geophysical methods used to generate bore hole temperature reconstructions do not permit annual or decade resolution, but only the century-scale trend in temperatures over the last several centuries. Nonetheless, this record, totally independent of data and methods used in other studies, shows the same thing: the Earth is warming dramatically."



Proxy data from tree rings, coral growth, stalagmites, etc. (2000 years):
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/paleolast.html

"Beginning in the 1970's, paleoclimatologists began constructing a blueprint of how the Earth's temperature changed over the centuries before 1850 and the widespread use of thermometers. Out of this emerged a view of the past climate based on limited data from tree rings, historical documents, sediments and other proxy data sources. Today, many more paleoclimate records are available from around the world, providing a much improved view of past changes in the Earth's temperature."

"Over the last decade, there has been a major breakthrough in our understanding of global temperature change over the last 1000 years. Several different but important studies, published in peer-reviewed scientific journals, revolutionized what we know about the 20th century in the context of past centuries. The research of the late 1990s formed the foundation for a progression of studies that followed, incorporating advances in statistical techniques and information from a broad range of proxy data types."

"Although each of the proxy temperature records shown below is different, due in part to the diverse statistical methods utilized and sources of the proxy data, they all indicate similar patterns of temperature variability over the last 500 to 2000 years. Most striking is the fact that each record reveals a steep increase in the rate or spatial extent of warming since the mid-19th to early 20th centuries. When compared to the most recent decades of the instrumental record, they indicate the temperatures of the most recent decades are the warmest in the entire record. In addition, warmer than average temperatures are more widespread over the Northern Hemisphere in the 20th century than in any previous time."

"The similarity of characteristics among the different paleoclimatic reconstructions provides confidence in the following important conclusions:
    * Dramatic warming has occurred since the 19th century.
    * The recent record warm temperatures in the last 15 years are indeed the warmest temperatures the Earth has seen in at least the last 1000 years, and possibly in the last 2000 years."



Ice core data (400,000 years)
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/fig2-22.htm

"Variations of temperature, methane, and atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations derived from air trapped within ice cores from Antarctica."

This graph shows the 100,000 year natural climate cycle and the correlation of carbon dioxide concentration with temperature.



Quote
Into finals around here, which precludes me from giving any response I pen the scrutiny I know it will be subject too. Perhaps at some point in the future I\u2019ll be inspired to partake of a major deconstructive spasm.

I understand.

-milt

24
Politics & Religion / Re: Environmental issues
« on: December 08, 2006, 08:22:48 AM »
Okay buzwardo, it's a clean slate as far as I'm concerned.  It's science only from here on out.

-milt

25
Politics & Religion / Re: Environmental issues
« on: December 08, 2006, 04:47:13 AM »
Milt:

You were doing really well until the last section.  :-D


I removed it.

-milt

26
Politics & Religion / Re: CACAphony on Parade
« on: December 07, 2006, 04:08:33 PM »
Quote from: milt
Unprecedented levels of greenhouse gases have been building up in the atmosphere over the last couple of hundred years due to human industrial activity.

As repeatedly mentioned in this thread, the tools for making measurements capable of supporting this sweeping statement are new on the scene, carbon dioxide measurements made over a geologically relevant period are hard to come by, while the geologic record clearly indicates climate change is the norm, rather than the exception.

Climate change at the current rate is not the norm.  Are you claiming that the borehole data, surface and satellite temperature measurements, ice core records, etc. are all BS?  I can post the data and graphs if you want.

Quote from: milt
Do you have any evidence to the contrary that doesn't come from Exxon researchers?

Quote from: buzwardo
And we are back to the ad hominem.

Well, all my data comes from peer-reviewed papers published in respected journals such as Nature, Science, etc.  All yours seems to come from industry backed front groups and a handful of scientists funded by them.  If someone's trying to convince me that tobacco doesn't cause cancer, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask them for evidence that doesn't come from Philip Morris.

-milt

27
Politics & Religion / Re: Of Ice Sheets and Excitable Boys
« on: December 06, 2006, 11:06:27 AM »
I?d like to point out, however, that where science is concerned anyone involved in serious research is getting their bread buttered by someone with deep pockets, a fact that should be so obvious that I don?t understand the value of pointing it out.

I never said anything about deep pockets.  I pointed out that the funders of the global warming deniers that you cite have a financial interest in the results going a particular way.  It''s got nothing to do with research being expensive.

BTW, I was checking out more of junkscience.com and saw this: http://junkscience.com/sep05.htm

Not infrequently, the question is asked as to why JunkScience.com does not weigh into the so-called debate concerning evolution/creation (there'll probably be trouble because I didn't capitalise that). The answer is simple: alleged ID and Creation (there, better?) are matters of faith with zero requirement for science nor proof. In fact, "He said it. I believe it. That's an end to it." leaves no room for debate, informed, reasoned or otherwise - it's faith and perfectly sufficient for believers. The bottom line here is that, if you believe, that's fine, as it is if you don't believe - just don't confuse belief with science. And no, we won't be answering e-mail on this.

Pretty weak, coming from a so-called skeptic.

Quote
As everyone is getting their loaves slathered the relevant question is the one about the science: are reproducible results being obtained? If not, the science is bad, if so the science is good; science good or bad is not created by funding method, but by strict adherence, or lack thereof, to sound scientific method.

Unprecedented levels of greenhouse gases have been building up in the atmosphere over the last couple of hundred years due to human industrial activity.  The warming / cooling in different parts of the atmosphere is consistent with what we would expect from an accumulation of greenhouse gases and these temperature changes are occurring at a much greater rate than any prior variations due to the planet's natural climate cycle.  This seems like pretty good evidence of anthropogenic climate change.

Do you have any evidence to the contrary that doesn't come from Exxon researchers?   Which of these claims do you dispute?  I'm happy to discuss any scientific objections you have on any particular point.

Come on, let's talk about the science.  I'll look at some links to actual research papers, but please, no more links to various websites that claim to debunk the other side's arguments.  Let's just put them in our own words.

-milt

28
Politics & Religion / Re: Comprehensive "Global Warming" Rebuttal Info
« on: December 05, 2006, 05:02:41 PM »
A comprehensive survey rebutting anthropogenic warming fears can be found here:

http://www.junkscience.com/Greenhouse/What_Watt.htm

These sources just aren't credible:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkscience.com
http://www.exxonsecrets.org/html/orgfactsheet.php?id=24

What are the specific claims made by the IPCC that you take issue with?  I suppose I could post a link to some website debunking the junkscience.com rebuttal, but that wouldn't make for a very interesting discussion.

-milt

29
Politics & Religion / Re: Environmental issues
« on: December 05, 2006, 01:53:42 PM »
Do you have a "peer reviewed set of data supporting your position"?  If so, have at it!

http://www.ipcc.ch/about/procd.htm
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/index.htm

-milt

30
Politics & Religion / Re: Notes from the Underground
« on: November 20, 2006, 10:27:07 AM »
Perhaps I shouldn?t be scribbling as I?m having issues with a dental implant, which likely leaves me crankier than normal. Be that as it may, I wanted to respond to the argumentum ad hominem posted above.

So is there simply no such thing as a conflict of interest?  Are you claiming that the source of someone's research funding is completely unrelated to the conclusions they might draw?  Their data and methods couldn't possibly be biased in favor of the people/corporations supplying the cash?  I'm not saying they necessarily are, but to claim that viewing them with skepticism is some kind of ad hominem attack is ludicrous.

If the general consensus among environmental scientists was that there was no global warming except for a tiny minority of them who were all funded by the Sierra Club you wouldn't question their conclusions?  You'd claim "ad hominem attack" if anyone suggested that maybe they were skewing the results in favor of their financial supporters?

-milt

31
Politics & Religion / Re: Cutting Losses along the Warrior's Path
« on: August 07, 2006, 02:17:58 PM »
Quote from: buzwardo
??Islamo Fascist? is a mean thing to say,? might make for a fine mantra, but it?s little more than repetitious twaddle when used as a lone talking point in a larger debate.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamofascism

Criticism of the use of the term

Juan Cole, professor of modern Middle East and South Asian history at the
University of Michigan, argues that the term is offensive and tantamount
to hate speech, because it is a desecration that is profoundly insulting
to Muslims.

    "It is hard to see the difference between the bigotry of
anti-Semitism as an evil and the bigotry that [Michael] Medved displays
toward Islam. It is more offensive than I can say for him to use the word
"Islamo-fascist." Islam is a sacred term to 1.3 billion people in the
world. It enshrines their highest ideals. To combine it with the word
"fascist" in one phrase is a desecration and a form of hate speech. Are
there Muslims who are fascists? Sure. But there is no Islamic fascism,
since "Islam" has to do with the highest ideals of the religion. In the
same way, there have been lots of Christian fascists, but to speak of
Christo-Fascism is just offensive."

Others argue that grouping disparate ideologies into one single idea of
"Islamofascism" may lead to an oversimplification of the root causes of
terrorism.

    "The idea that there is some kind of autonomous "Islamofascism" that
can be crushed, or that the west may defend itself against the terrorists
who threaten it by cultivating that eagerness to kill militant Muslims
which Hitchens urges upon us, is a dangerous delusion. The symptoms that
have led some to apply the label of "Islamofascism" are not reasons to
forget root causes. They are reasons for us to examine even more
carefully what those root causes actually are." He adds "'Saddam, Arafat
and the Saudis hate the Jews and want to see them destroyed' . . . or so
says the right-wing writer Andrew Sullivan. And he has a point. Does the
western left really grasp the extent of anti-Semitism in the Middle East?
But does the right grasp the role of Europeans in creating such hatred?"
Richard Webster, author of A Brief History of Blasphemy: liberalism,
censorship and 'The Satanic Verses' writing in the New Statesman.

According to New York University professor Chris Matthew Sciabarra,
writing about the influence of Sayyid Qutb, "(w)hatever totalitarian
echoes one sees in the Qutbian vision, there are distinctions that
disqualify the usage of the word "Islamofascism" to describe it, or to
describe Islamic fundamentalism in general." See Neofascism and religion.

Others argue that movements characterized as "Islamofascist" are
dissimilar to fascist movements of the past. According to Roxanne Euben,
a professor of political science at Wellesley College,

    "Fascism is nationalistic and Islamicism is hostile to
nationalism. Fundamentalism is a transnational movement that is appealing
to believers of all nations and races across national boundaries. There
is no idea of racial purity as in Nazism. Islamicists have very little
idea of the state. It is a religious movement, while Fascism in Europe
was a secular movement. So if it's not what we really think of as
nationalism, and if it's not really like what we think of as Fascist, why
use these terms?"

Islamists, however, consider the community of Muslims, or Ummah, as a
nation. The use of the term "Islamofascist" by proponents of the War on
Terror has prompted some critics to argue that the term is a typical
example of wartime propaganda.

    "Islamofascism is nothing but an empty propaganda term. And wartime
propaganda is usually, if not always, crafted to produce hysteria, the
destruction of any sense of proportion. Such words, undefined and
unmeasured, are used by people more interested in making us lose our
heads than in keeping their own." - Joseph Sobran, syndicated
columnist.

32
Politics & Religion / Re: The Last Western Stooge
« on: August 07, 2006, 02:13:04 PM »
Quote from: buzwardo
What totally befuddles me is that if the global caliphate many Islamo Fascists advocate ever came to pass,


You bedwetting conservatives sure spend a disproportionate amount of time fretting about these ridiculous "Red Dawn" type takeover scenarios.

Quote
the first ones they'd hang from the soccer goal posts would be the western lunatic lefties currently carrying their water.


Of course they would!  I see that even you agree that the "Islamofascists" have much more in common with the American right wing than the left.

-milt

33
Politics & Religion / Invitation to dialog to Muslims
« on: July 08, 2006, 02:25:26 PM »
Quote from: Crafty_Dog
It means that many infidel people are genuinely confused and concerned by what they are reading about Islam and its varying schools of thought and action and have probing questions that they wish to ask.

It also means that the more conscious amongst us are willing to entertain the possibility that the infidel side has made its own contributions to "the gathering storm" that threatens to engulf us all.


IMO, as long as you insist on keeping up this juvenile "infidel" BS, you're not going to be taken seriously.

Imagine if someone who claimed to be curious about Judaism constantly refered to themselves as "we goyim" or "the gentile side" in any discussion.  It's funny the first time, but after a while it gets irritating and comes off as patronizing, whether that's your intention or not.

-milt

34
Politics & Religion / Invitation to dialog to Muslims
« on: June 24, 2006, 04:25:51 PM »
Quote from: xtremekali
Milt,

An infidel is a "non believer" one is not of the Islamic faith.  Just like a heathen is not of the Christian faith.

Myke Willis


I know what it means.  I'm curious about why Marc keeps using it in this discussion.  He's the only one doing it.

-milt

35
Politics & Religion / Invitation to dialog to Muslims
« on: June 24, 2006, 10:48:10 AM »
Quote from: Crafty_Dog
That said, this question of looking the other way I think is a really important one for many of us infidels.


Why do you keep referring to yourself as an "infidel?"

-milt

36
Politics & Religion / Invitation to dialog to Muslims
« on: June 22, 2006, 01:36:46 PM »
Quote from: ppulatie
From Captain's Quarters and Ed Morrissey.  http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/

Hamas calling for the overthrow of the US and European countries by Islamists.  Again, where is the voice of reason in the Muslim world?  Only silence.......


Quote from: rogt

How exactly do you envision this happening?  It's not like there's
some official leader of the Muslim world or equivalent of the Pope who
speaks for all Muslims.  Are CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, etc. going to find
all these anti-terrorism Muslims and give them 15 minutes during
prime-time to condemn terrorism to your satisfaction?

If the Muslim world doesn't see George W. Bush coming out to condemn
"collateral damage" that has resulted in thousands of innocent Iraqi
deaths, should they assume he fully approves of it?

37
Politics & Religion / Political Rants
« on: June 06, 2006, 11:06:55 AM »
Swift Boating the Planet
By PAUL KRUGMAN

A brief segment in "An Inconvenient Truth" shows Senator Al Gore questioning James Hansen, a climatologist at NASA, during a 1989 hearing. But the movie doesn't give you much context, or tell you what happened to Dr. Hansen later.

And that's a story worth telling, for two reasons. It's a good illustration of the way interest groups can create the appearance of doubt even when the facts are clear and cloud the reputations of people who should be regarded as heroes. And it's a warning for Mr. Gore and others who hope to turn global warming into a real political issue: you're going to have to get tougher, because the other side doesn't play by any known rules.

Dr. Hansen was one of the first climate scientists to say publicly that global warming was under way. In 1988, he made headlines with Senate testimony in which he declared that "the greenhouse effect has been detected, and it is changing our climate now." When he testified again the following year, officials in the first Bush administration altered his prepared statement to downplay the threat. Mr. Gore's movie shows the moment when the administration's tampering was revealed.

In 1988, Dr. Hansen was well out in front of his scientific colleagues, but over the years that followed he was vindicated by a growing body of evidence. By rights, Dr. Hansen should have been universally acclaimed for both his prescience and his courage.

But soon after Dr. Hansen's 1988 testimony, energy companies began a campaign to create doubt about global warming, in spite of the increasingly overwhelming evidence. And in the late 1990's, climate skeptics began a smear campaign against Dr. Hansen himself.

Leading the charge was Patrick Michaels, a professor at the University of Virginia who has received substantial financial support from the energy industry. In Senate testimony, and then in numerous presentations, Dr. Michaels claimed that the actual pace of global warming was falling far short of Dr. Hansen's predictions. As evidence, he presented a chart supposedly taken from a 1988 paper written by Dr. Hansen and others, which showed a curve of rising temperatures considerably steeper than the trend that has actually taken place.

In fact, the chart Dr. Michaels showed was a fraud ? that is, it wasn't what Dr. Hansen actually predicted. The original paper showed a range of possibilities, and the actual rise in temperature has fallen squarely in the middle of that range. So how did Dr. Michaels make it seem as if Dr. Hansen's prediction was wildly off? Why, he erased all the lower curves, leaving only the curve that the original paper described as being "on the high side of reality."

The experts at www.realclimate.org, the go-to site for climate science, suggest that the smears against Dr. Hansen "might be viewed by some as a positive sign, indicative of just how intellectually bankrupt the contrarian movement has become." But I think they're misreading the situation. In fact, the smears have been around for a long time, and Dr. Hansen has been trying to correct the record for years. Yet the claim that Dr. Hansen vastly overpredicted global warming has remained in circulation, and has become a staple of climate change skeptics, from Michael Crichton to Robert Novak.

There's a concise way to describe what happened to Dr. Hansen: he was Swift-boated.

John Kerry, a genuine war hero, didn't realize that he could successfully be portrayed as a coward. And it seems to me that Dr. Hansen, whose predictions about global warming have proved remarkably accurate, didn't believe that he could successfully be portrayed as an unreliable exaggerator. His first response to Dr. Michaels, in January 1999, was astonishingly diffident. He pointed out that Dr. Michaels misrepresented his work, but rather than denouncing the fraud involved, he offered a rather plaintive appeal for better behavior.

Even now, Dr. Hansen seems reluctant to say the obvious. "Is this treading close to scientific fraud?" he recently asked about Dr. Michaels's smear. The answer is no: it isn't "treading close," it's fraud pure and simple.

Now, Dr. Hansen isn't running for office. But Mr. Gore might be, and even if he isn't, he hopes to promote global warming as a political issue. And if he wants to do that, he and those on his side will have to learn to call liars what they are.

38
Politics & Religion / Political Rants
« on: September 16, 2005, 10:28:25 AM »
Quote from: Crafty_Dog

Whatever one's opinion on the abortion issue, the right to privacy does not supersede however the right to life; we may not murder someone in the privacy of our home for example.


A fetus is not "someone."

-milt

39
Politics & Religion / Re: Labeled for Life
« on: July 01, 2005, 11:18:52 AM »
Quote from: buzwardo
Dude, why are you willing to slap a life-long sex offender label on someone who merely grabbed an arm, particularly in light of the fact that the judge in the case said the law prevented him from exercising good sense and restraint?


I agree that the sex offender label probably isn't warranted, but something seems wrong with a guy that would get out of his car and grab someone like that.  I bet he wouldn't have done that to just anyone, but felt like he had the right to do it to a relatively powerless teenage girl.

Quote
If there is any sexual component here I say rip the fellows 'nads off and grate them on his teeth. But if this is merely some guy lecturing an erstwhile pedestrian


Again, I doubt you'd tolerate a stranger restraining you by the arm and lecturing you about walking properly for longer than a couple of seconds before lowering the boom, as it were.

Quote
that is now labeled for life due to an inflexible justice system then this is about as odious an exercise in government power as I've heard of late.


Really?  You think this is worse than the recent Supreme Court decision that now allows the government to seize your property
and give it to wealthy developers if they can generate more tax revenue from it than you can?

-milt

40
Politics & Religion / Re: Listed for Life
« on: July 01, 2005, 10:34:07 AM »
Quote from: buzwardo
Might be the wrong thread for this, but this instance of the nanny state running amok made my jaw drop.


Something doesn't smell right.  What kind of guy gets out of his car and grabs a 14-year-old girl to "lecture" her?  I have to swerve to avoid people and objects all the time, but it's never occurred to me to pull over and physically restrain someone to "chastise" them.

Why are you willing to cut this guy so much slack?  What do you think your reaction would be if someone swerved to avoid you, then got out of his car and grabbed you or your wife by the arm to deliver a lecture about watching where you're going?

-milt

41
Politics & Religion / We the Well-armed People
« on: March 10, 2005, 10:21:56 AM »
http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/news/20050307p2a00m0dm003000c.html

Judo throw deals thief a blow

KASHIHARA, Nara -- A powerful judo throw from an elderly Kashihara farmer has thwarted a wannabe armed robber's plans to steal from him, police said.

The 66-year-old farmer disarmed the man demanding money from him at knifepoint and forced him to flee. He repelled the would-be robber while sustaining only minor injuries to his hands.

The elderly farmer had belonged to a judo club at high school and remains physically fit, having completed five full marathons while in his 40s.

"It was all just a reflex action," the farmer said.

Police are looking for his assailant, describing him as being in his 50s or 60s and wearing a gray uniform.

Police said the mugger had rang the farmer's doorbell early on Sunday morning, telling the farmer's wife he was a newspaper deliveryman and waiting outside the front gate of their home.

Suspecting something was amiss, the farmer went out to greet the man and was confronted by him brandishing a knife. The farmer grabbed the man and hurled him over his shoulder, slamming him into the ground.

The knife clattered out of the man's hands. He got up and ran away and the farmer returned to his home and alerted the police. (Mainichi Shimbun, March 7, 2005)

42
Politics & Religion / Re: 84 Year-Old Man Shoots Burglar
« on: February 18, 2005, 06:30:04 PM »
Quote

Birtwhistle fired again but 40-year-old James Rosebush kept coming, and wrestled the elderly man to the floor.

"My gun was in my hand, down in under.  He grabbed that gun out of my hand and was trying to get it in position to shoot me.  And, I was ready to give up.  But before he could do that, he just relaxed," said Birtwhistle.

Investigators with the St. Joseph County Metro Homicide Unit and the County Prosecutor's Office say the shooting was justified.


I don't get it.  Why doesn't the article say anything about what happened when Rosebush relaxed or how Birtwhistle got the gun back?

-milt

43
Politics & Religion / Homeland Security
« on: July 22, 2004, 04:54:37 PM »
Woof Whack Job,

Can you think of any scenarios where it would be appropriate to "profile" middle aged white guys?

-milt

44
Politics & Religion / Gun control
« on: October 31, 2003, 04:05:37 PM »
Quote from: Crafty_Dog

Raging Against Self Defense:
A Psychiatrist Examines The Anti-Gun Mentality
By Sarah Thompson, M.D.
righter@therighter.com

"You don't need to have a gun; the police will protect you."

"If people carry guns, there will be murders over parking spaces and neighborhood basketball games."

"I'm a pacifist. Enlightened, spiritually aware people shouldn't own guns."

"I'd rather be raped than have some redneck militia type try to rescue me."
How often have you heard these statements from misguided advocates of victim disarmament, or even woefully uninformed relatives and neighbors? Why do people cling so tightly to these beliefs, in the face of incontrovertible evidence that they are wrong? Why do they get so furiously angry when gun owners point out that their arguments are factually and logically incorrect?

How can you communicate with these people who seem to be out of touch with reality and rational thought?

One approach to help you deal with anti-gun people is to understand their psychological processes. Once you understand why these people behave so irrationally, you can communicate more effectively with them.


Something about this "analysis" has been bugging me for a while.  Can Ms.Thompson not argue the merits of gun ownership or whatever based on the facts?  The dismissal of opposing viewpoints by attempting to characterize "anti-gun" people as irrational or suffering for some sort of mental disorder is insulting and amounts to nothing more than an ad hominem attack.

It wouldn't be too difficult for someone to write an equivalent piece about how "gun-nuts" are mostly a bunch of weak, out of shape pussies who are unable to defend themselves without firearms.  They've seen too many "Death Wish" movies and suffer from paranoia and fear that they could be attacked by criminals and/or government black helicopters at any time.  To communicate with these people you must be careful not to bruise their fragile egos due to their small dicks which they compensate for by purchasing ever more and larger guns...

I don't neccessarily believe any of this, but you see my point.  That said, what sort of weapons restrictions are reasonable?  None?

Should anyone be able to buy rocket launchers, tanks, nukes, etc.?  Just where do you draw the line?

-milt

45
Politics & Religion / We the Unorganized Militia
« on: October 31, 2003, 10:42:53 AM »
Quote from: David

An interesting thought came to mind as I read the above article...not that I in any way agree with Susanto's behavior, I don't...but what do you imagine 20 teenage boys would do if a 25 year old woman exposed herself to them?  Beat the woman up?  What accounts for the difference in reactions?  

David

It isn't obvious? How about the fact that teenage girls have good reason to feel threatened by such behavior from a man, while boys wouldn't feel a similar threat from a woman?  Or are you wondering why this is so?

A better question would have been "What do you imagine 20 teenage boys would do if a 25 year old man exposed himself to them?"

And the answer is that they would have done the same thing those girls did in response to the unwanted attention.

Or is your point that since boys would have presumably enjoyed being flashed by a woman, that these girls should have enjoyed it also?

What are you getting at?

-milt

46
Politics & Religion / We the Unorganized Militia
« on: October 31, 2003, 10:04:40 AM »
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/10/31/crime.girls.reut/index.html

Girls pummel man who exposed himself

PHILADELPHIA, Pennsylvania (Reuters) -- A man described by authorities as a known sexual predator was chased through the streets of South Philadelphia by an angry crowd of Catholic high school girls, who kicked and punched him after he was tackled by neighbors, police said Friday.

Rudy Susanto, 25, who had exposed himself to teen-age girls on as many as seven occasions outside St. Maria Goretti School, struck again on Thursday just as students were being dismissed, police said.

But this time, a group of girls in school uniforms angrily confronted Susanto with help from some neighbors, police said.

When Susanto tried to run, more than 20 girls chased him down the block. Two men from the neighborhood caught him and the girls took their revenge.

"The girls came and started kicking him and punching him, so I wasn't going to stop them," neighbor Robert Lemons told The Philadelphia Inquirer.

Susanto was later treated for injuries at a local hospital. Police said he would be charged with 14 criminal counts including harassment, disorderly conduct, open lewdness and corrupting the morals of a minor.

47
Politics & Religion / We the Well-armed People
« on: October 26, 2003, 11:14:03 AM »
Quote from: Guest
Someone quoted this me.  This was a question they had for somebody who was a Liberal and a pacifist.  When they asked him if he believed in gun control this is what he had to say.  He said, "No".  When asked why he said, "Why should the cops and military have all the guns?"  Something definitely to think about.


So this guy owns guns just in case he has to take on the cops or military?

Please!

-milt

48
Politics & Religion / Political Rants
« on: September 08, 2003, 01:11:39 PM »
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2003/0309.marshall.html

The Post-Modern President
Deception, Denial, and Relativism: what the Bush administration learned from the French.

By Joshua Micah Marshall

Every president deceives. But each has his own style of deceit. Ronald Reagan was a master of baseless stories -- trees cause more pollution than cars -- that captured his vision of how the world should be. George H.W. Bush, generally conceded to be a decent fellow, tended to lie only in two circumstances: When running for president, or to save his own skin, as in Iran-Contra. Bill Clinton famously lied about embarrassing details of his private life, and his smooth, slippery rhetorical style made some people suspect he was lying even when he was telling the truth.

George W. Bush has a forthright speaking style which convinces many people that he's telling the truth even when he's lying. But in under three years, Bush has told at least as many impressive untruths as each of his three predecessors. (See The Mendacity Index, p.27) His style of deception is also unique. When Reagan said he didn't trade arms for hostages, or Clinton insisted he didn't have sex with "that woman," the falsity of the claims was readily provable--by an Oliver North memo or a stained blue dress. Bush and his administration, however, specialize in a particular form of deception: The confidently expressed, but currently undisprovable assertion. In his State of the Union address last January, the president claimed that Saddam Hussein had ties to al Qaeda and a robust nuclear weapons program, and that therefore we needed to invade Iraq. Even at the time, many military and intelligence experts said that the president's assertions probably weren't true and were based on at best fragmentary evidence. But there was no way to know for sure unless we did what Bush wanted. When the president said on numerous occasions that his tax cuts--which were essentially long-term rate reductions for the wealthy--would spur growth without causing structural deficits, most experts, again, cried foul, pointing out that both past experience and accepted economic theory said otherwise. But in point of fact nobody could say for sure that maybe this time the cuts might not work.

This summer, when it became clear that Iraq had no active nuclear weapons program--indeed showed no apparent evidence of any weapons of mass destruction at all--that the economy was still losing jobs, and that the administration's own budget office predicted deficits as far as it dared project, Bush's reputation for honesty took a turn for the worse. By the middle of July, only 47 percent of adults surveyed by Time/CNN said they felt they could trust the president, down from 56 percent in March. The president's response to all this was to make yet more confidently expressed, undisprovable assertions. He simply insisted that his tax cuts would create jobs--and who knows? Perhaps someday they will--and that American forces would eventually turn up evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. But by then, the press was beginning to pick up on deceptions in other policy areas--the redaction of evidence of global warming in EPA reports, the administration's refusal to provide Congress with any estimates whatsoever about the costs of the occupation of Iraq. The White House seemed guilty of what might be called persistent, chronic up-is-downism, the tendency to ridicule the possibility that a given policy might actually have its predictable adverse consequences, to deny those consequences once they have already occurred, or--failing that--to insist against all evidence that those consequences were part of the plan all along. By late July, even a paragon of establishment conservatism like Barron's columnist Alan Abelson was lamenting the president's "regrettable aversion to the truth and reality when the truth and reality aren't lovely or convenient."

The president and his aides don't speak untruths because they are necessarily people of bad character. They do so because their politics and policies demand it. As astute observers such as National Journal's Jonathan Rauch have recently noted, George W. Bush campaigned as a moderate, but has governed with the most radical agenda of any president since Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Indeed, the aim of most of Bush's policies has been to overturn what FDR created three generations ago. On the domestic front, that has meant major tax cuts forcing sharp reductions in resources for future government activism, combined with privatization of as many government functions as possible. Abroad, Bush has pursued an expansive and militarized unilateralism aimed at cutting the U.S. free from entangling alliances and international treaty obligations so as to maximize freedom of maneuver for American power in a Hobbesian world.

Yet this is not an agenda that the bulk of the American electorate ever endorsed. Indeed, poll after poll suggest that Bush's policy agenda is not particularly popular. What the public wants is its problems solved: terrorists thwarted, jobs created, prescription drugs made affordable, the environment protected. Almost all of Bush's deceptions have been deployed when he has tried to pass off his preexisting agenda items as solutions to particular problems with which, for the most part, they have no real connection. That's when the unverifiable assertion comes in handy. Many of the administration's policy arguments have amounted to predictions--tax cuts will promote job growth, Saddam is close to having nukes, Iraq can be occupied with a minimum of U.S. manpower--that most experts believed to be wrong, but which couldn't be definitely disproven until events played out in the future. In the midst of getting those policies passed, the administration's main obstacle has been the experts themselves--the economists who didn't trust the budget projections, the generals who didn't buy the troop estimates, intelligence analysts who questioned the existence of an active nuclear weapons program in Iraq. That has created a strong incentive to delegitimize the experts--a task that comes particularly easy to the revisionists who drive Bush administration policy. They tend to see experts as guardians of the status quo, who seek to block any and all change, no matter how necessary, and whose views are influenced and corrupted by the agendas and mindsets of their agencies. Like orthodox Marxists who pick apart mainstream economics and anthropology as the creations of 'bourgeois ideology' or Frenchified academic post-modernists who 'deconstruct' knowledge in a similar fashion, revisionist ideologues seek to expose "the facts" as nothing more than the spin of experts blinded by their own unacknowledged biases. The Bush administration's betes noir aren't patriarchy, racism, and homophobia, but establishmentarianism, big-government liberalism, and what they see as pervasive foreign policy namby-pambyism. For them, ignoring the experts and their 'facts' is not only necessary to advance their agenda, but a virtuous effort in the service of a higher cause.

Tinker Beltway

To understand the Bush administration's need and propensity for deception one must go back to the ideological warfare of the 1990s, which pitted Bill Clinton's New Democratic agenda against Newt Gingrich's Contract for America Republicanism. Clinton's politics were an updated version of early 20th century Progressivism, with its suspicion of ideology and heavy reliance on technocratic expertise. He argued that while government agencies or our relations with the international community might need reform, they were basically sound, and their proper use was to solve discrete problems. Crime on the rise? Put more cops on the street. Federal budget deficits out of control? Trim federal spending and nudge up taxes on the wealthy. Many in Washington debated whether Clinton's policies would work; some still argue that they didn't. But few ever questioned that their intent was to solve these specific problems.

Newt Gingrich and the House Republicans who came to power in 1995 held a very different, neo-Reaganite view. Deriding the whole notion of a federal response for every crisis, they argued that society's problems could be solved only through a radical reordering, both of government in Washington and of America's relationship with the world. This required tax cuts to drain money out of the Beltway; radically scaling back regulation on business; pulling America out of many international agreements; and cutting funding to the United Nations. The Gingrichites were not pragmatists but visionaries and revolutionaries. They wanted to overthrow the existing structure of American governance, not tinker with it.

The contest between these two worldviews played out during the middle 1990s, and eventually the public rendered its verdict at the ballot box. In 1996, Clinton decisively won re-election and Gingrich's GOP lost seats in the House. Then in 1998, at the height of impeachment, the House GOP lost even more seats ? marking the first time since 1934 that the party in the White House won seats during a mid-term election--and Clinton's job approval rating soared as high as it ever would during his eight years in office.

Voters had chosen problem-solving moderation over radical revisionism--and perceptive GOP leaders knew it. Following the 1998 electoral setback, they quieted their talk of revolution and mulled over how to soften their image. More and more of them gravitated towards the son of former president George H.W. Bush, the kindler, gentler Republican. Texas governor George W. Bush had a reputation as a pragmatist who made common cause with Democratic leaders in the Texas legislature. He launched his campaign for president not as an ideologue, but as a "compassionate conservative," who spoke the language of progressive problem-solving on issues such as education, and was perfectly willing to use the powers of the federal government to get results. Even when Bush proposed a massive tax cut during the Republican primaries, most commentators dismissed it as a campaign ploy to fend off his more conservative GOP rival, Steve Forbes. After ascending to the presidency without winning the popular vote, Bush was widely expected to compromise on the size of the tax cut.

It soon became clear, however, that Bush would govern very differently from how he ran. Instead of abandoning the tax cut, for instance, he became more determined to pass it, for rather than being a mere ploy, cutting taxes was a fundamental goal of his agenda. Politically, it was a policy on which each part of the once-fractious conservative base could agree on. It also rewarded the party's biggest donors. But most importantly, tax cuts would help shift the very premises of American governance. Republicans had come to view progressive federal taxation as the linchpin of Democrat strength. As Rep. Jim DeMint (R-S.C.), an up-and-coming conservative, told The New Yorker's Nicholas Lemann during the 2001 tax debate, "[t]oday fewer and fewer people pay taxes, and more and more are dependent on government, so the politician who promises the most from government is likely to win. Every day, the Republican Party is losing constituents, because every day more people can vote themselves more benefits without paying for it." By this theory, the more the tax burden shifted from upper-middle-class and wealthy voters to those of the middle class, the more average voters would feel the sting of each new government program, and the less likely they would be to support the Democrats who call for such programs. To put it another way, it was a policy designed to turn more voters into Republicans, particularly the middle class. Without massive upper-bracket tax cuts, DeMint worried, "The Reagan message"--smaller government--"won't work anymore."

But telling the majority of voters that your tax policies are designed to shift more of the burden of paying for federal government onto them is not a very effective way of eliciting their support. So, instead, Bush pitched his tax cuts as the solution to whatever problems were most in the news at the time. During the election, he argued that tax cuts were a way to refund to voters part of a budget surplus that people like Alan Greenspan worried was growing too big. By early 2001, it became clear that those surpluses were never going to materialize. So the administration cooked up an entirely new rationale: The tax cut was needed as fiscal stimulus to pull the economy out of an impending recession. In other words, the tax cut that was tailor-made for a booming economy made equally good sense in a tanking one. When the economy eventually began to grow again but only at feeble levels, the administration insisted that things would have been worse without the tax cuts (another assertion impossible to prove or disprove). And when, because of that anemic growth, coupled with gains in productivity, the unemployment rate continued to rise, the administration had yet another excuse: A new round of tax cuts, they said, would generate jobs.

The same technique--invoking the problem of the moment to sell a predetermined policy agenda--came to characterize just about everything the administration would do. Take energy policy. Oilmen like the president and vice-president have wanted to drill in places like the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) for years because of their generalized belief that U.S. energy supplies should be exploited as fully and rapidly as possible. But for a public increasingly enamored of the idea of protecting pristine wilderness areas, this rationale was insufficient to get the derricks pumping. Then, while the Bush administration was formulating their energy policy during the spring and summer of 2001, California had an "energy crisis." Suddenly, there was a big problem, and the administration had what it said was the perfect solution: Drilling in ANWR and giving free reign to energy producers. But California's shortage had nothing to do with marginal supplies of oil, and we now know it had everything to do with companies like Enron gaming an ill-conceived energy privatization regime in that state. When that became apparent, the administration didn't skip a beat. 9/11 came soon after, and instead of heading off an energy crisis, the administration pitched drilling in ANWR as a way to safeguard national security by weaning ourselves off from foreign oil supplies. Many pundits have mocked these constantly-shifting rationales as though the administration is somehow confused. But they only seem confused if you assume that the problem needing to be solved actually called forth the policy solution aimed at solving it. Once you realize that the desire for the policy is the parent of the rationale, and not the other way around, everything falls into place.

Trickle Down Deception

Iraq was the most telling example. Many neoconservatives from the first Bush administration had long regretted the decision to leave Saddam Hussein in power in 1991. During their years out of power, as these neocons hashed out a doctrine of post-Cold War American military primacy, Saddam's removal moved higher and higher up their list of priorities. He was, after all, the prime obstacle to U.S. dominance of the Middle East. And holding him in check was generating serious diplomatic and military damage in the region. Those plans to remove Saddam shot to the top of the White House's agenda within hours of the 9/11 attacks. The neocons believed that the threat of catastrophic terror required not just taking down al Qaeda but solving the root problem of Islamic terrorism by remaking the entire Middle East. And ousting Saddam was at the center of the plan. Outrage over the presence of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia--put there to contain Saddam--had helped Osama bin Laden recruit his jihadists. And installing a US-backed regime in Baghdad could, the neocons believed, help trigger a domino effect against the old order which would spread secular, democratic regimes throughout the region.

But that was just a theory. In practice, Saddam and al Qaeda were largely unconnected. In fact, the two goals were often at odds with each other. When the Pentagon needed its top special forces to lead the search for Saddam Hussein, Michael Duffy and Massimo Calabresi of Time reported, it simply reassigned the soldiers who had been on the hunt for Osama Bin Laden. Again, a newly apparent problem ? the al Qaeda terrorist threat ? was being used to advance an existing and largely unrelated policy goal.

The effort to make the Iraq-al Qaeda connection stick gave rise to the administration's grandest deception: The charge that Saddam was rapidly reconstituting his nuclear weapons program and might slip a nuclear bomb--or the chemical and biological weapons he was thought to have already--to bin Laden's terrorists. "We know he's got ties with al Qaeda," Bush said at an election rally in November 2002. "A nightmare scenario, of course, is that he becomes the arsenal of a terrorist network, where he could attack America and he'd leave no fingerprints behind." To make that scenario seem plausible, the administration had to muscle all manner of analysts at the CIA, the State Department, and elsewhere. These analysts knew the Middle East best and doubted the existence of any Saddam-al Qaeda link. Nor did they believe that Saddam's efforts to acquire nuclear weapons justified the crisis atmosphere the White House whipped up in the leadup to war.

The clash spilled into public view this summer, after American forces failed to find any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq at all. The media began to press White House officials on how false nuclear weapons claims had made their way into Bush's State of the Union address and other speeches. Administration officials have given shifting accounts, and tried to frame the story as a matter of procedural breakdown. But one former official of Bush's White House has suggested a more compelling psychological explanation. Writing in National Review Online this past July, former Bush speechwriter David Frum argued that "[t]he CIA's warnings on Iraq matters had lost some of their credibility in the 1990s. The agency was regarded by many in the Bush administration as reflexively and implacably hostile to any activist policy in Iraq. Those skeptics had come to believe that the agency was slanting its information on Iraq in order to maneuver the administration into supporting the agency's own soft-line policies."

We have since learned that it wasn't just mid-level aides who knew about and discounted the CIA's warnings, though we still don't know exactly how far up this dismissive attitude went. But Frum's point rings very true for those who followed the infighting between Bush appointees and the Agency over the last two years. Within the White House, the opinions of whole groups of agency experts were routinely dismissed as not credible, and unhelpful facts were dismissed as the obstructionist maneuverings of bureaucrats seeking to undermine needed change.

Indeed, this same tendency to dismiss expertise shaped the whole war effort. Just before the U.S. invaded Iraq, Army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki--who had focused his tenure on peacekeeping and nation building--said that hundreds of thousands of soldiers would be needed to pacify and control Iraq. Days later, Paul Wolfowitz told another committee that Shinseki didn't know what he was talking about; the occupation, Wolfowitz said, would require far fewer troops. At the time, many took Wolfowitz's evident self-assurance as a sign that he knew something the general didn't. Now, it's clear that it was the other way around, and Wolfowitz was engaging in a typical undisprovable assertion. Senior officials like Wolfowitz set an example that trickled down the bureaucratic ladder. One Pentagon civil servant specializing in Middle East policy described to me how, a few months after 9/11, he was chastised by a superior, a political appointee, for delivering a negative assessment of a proposed policy in a briefing memo to the Secretary of Defense. The civil servant changed his assessment as instructed but still included a list of potential pros and cons. But that wasn't good enough either. The senior official told him, "'It's still not acceptable. Take out all the discussion of the cons and basically write there's no reason why we shouldn't [do this].' I just thought this was intellectually dishonest."

Hide the Baloney

That cavalier dismissal of expert analysis isn't limited to the national security arena. In the summer of 2001, the Bush administration was looking for a decision the President could make on the use of embryonic stem cells for medical research. His Christian conservative base wanted an outright prohibition. But such a ban would have alienated swing voters eager for the therapies that could come from that research, such as cures for Parkinson's disease. As Nicholas Thompson explained in these pages ("Science Friction," July/August 2003), Bush's advisors came up with a scheme they thought would pass muster with both the core and the swing voters: the President would limit research to only those stem cell lines which existed already. But before the decision was announced, federal scientists warned the administration that there simply weren't enough reliable existing lines to be useful to researchers. The White House ignored the warnings, which have subsequently proved all too accurate, and went ahead with the decision, thereby setting back crucial medical research for years.

Look at just about any policy or department of government and you're likely to see the same pattern. In July, Slate's Russ Baker reported that the Bush administration "muzzles routine economic information that's unfavorable." Last year, the administration simply stopped issuing a report that tracks factory closings throughout the country, the better to hide evidence of mass layoffs. The report was reinstated only after The Washington Post happened to notice the cancellation, disclosed only in a footnote to the Department of Labor's final report for 2002, issued on Christmas Eve.

The sidelining of in-house expertise is nowhere more apparent than on the environmental front. This Bush administration came into office just as the consensus was solidifying among scientists that human activity contributes to climate change. That consensus, however, ran counter to key administration goals, such as loosening regulations on coal-burning power plants and scuttling international agreements aimed at limiting fossil fuel emissions. Rather than change its agenda, the administration chose to discredit the experts. As GOP pollster Frank Luntz wrote in a memo just before the 2002 election: "The scientific debate [on global warming] is closing against us but is not yet closed. There is still an opportunity to challenge the science." The idea that global warming was a reality that actually had to be grappled with simply didn't occur to Luntz. Indeed, when questioned about whether administration policies might contribute to global warming, White House spokesmen direct reporters to the small, and rapidly diminishing, group of scientists who still doubt that humans contribute to the problem. In June, when the EPA released an Environmental Progress report, the administration edited out passages that described scientific concerns about global warming.

In any White House, there is usually a tension between the political agenda and disinterested experts who might question it. But what's remarkable about this White House is how little tension there seems to be. Expert analysis that isn't politically helpful simply gets ignored.

The Boys in Striped Pants

Educated, liberal-leaning professionals are apt to see this conflict as an open-and-shut case: Expertise should always trump ideology. This has been the case for over a century, ever since Progressive Era reformers took on corrupt city machines and elevated technocratic expertise above politics. Those early Progressives restructured government by turning functions hitherto run by elected officials over to appointed, credentialed experts. And many of the ways they refashioned government now seem beyond question. Few would challenge, for instance, our practice of assigning decisions at the FDA or CDC to panels of qualified scientists rather than political appointees.

On the other hand, anyone who's worked as a political appointee at the higher levels of government and tried to get anything new done has been frustrated by the myriad ways in which bureaucrats manipulate numbers and information in ways intended to thwart the new agenda and maintain the status quo. There is a long tradition in American politics of finessing policy initiatives past stubborn bureaucrats. Franklin Roosevelt, for instance, routinely used amateur diplomats and personal intermediaries to sidestep the professionals at Foggy Bottom ? the "boys in striped pants," he called them ? for fear that they would slow-roll, walk back or generally meddle in his chosen course in international affairs. As the historian Warren Kimball aptly notes, Roosevelt shared the conviction that foreign service officers believed that they had a "priestly monopoly against intervention by members of Congress, journalists, professors, voters and other lesser breeds."

All of this is to say that the Bush administration's unwillingness to be pushed around by the bureaucratic experts or to have their ideas hemmed in by establishment opinion isn't by itself a bad thing. Nor is this administration the first to ignore or suppress unhelpful data or analyses from experts that runs contrary to its agenda-?foolish as such conduct usually proves. But in this administration the mindset of deception runs deeper. If you're a revisionist?someone pushing for radically changing the status quo?you're apt to see "the experts" not just as people who may be standing in your way, but whose minds have been corrupted by a wrongheaded ideology whose arguments can therefore be ignored. To many in the Bush administration, 'the experts' look like so many liberals wedded to a philosophy of big government, the welfare state, over-regulation and a pussyfooting role for the nation abroad. The Pentagon civil servant quoted above told me that the standard response to warnings from the Joint Staff about potential difficulties was simply to say: "That's just the Joint Staff being obstructionist." Even if the experts are right in the particulars--the size of the deficit, the number of troops needed in Iraq--their real goal is to get in the way of necessary changes that have to be made.

Apr?s nous, le d?luge

In that simple, totalizing assumption we find the kernel of almost every problem the administration has faced over recent months--and a foretaste of the troubles the nation may confront in coming years. By disregarding the advice of experts, by shunting aside the cadres of career professionals with on-the-ground experience in these various countries, the administration's hawks cut themselves off from the practical know-how which would have given them some chance of implementing their plans successfully. In a real sense, they cut themselves off from reality. When they went into Iraq they were essentially flying blind, having disengaged from almost everyone who had real-world experience in how effective occupation, reconstruction and nation-building was done. And much the same can be said of the administration's take on economic policy, environmental policy, and in almost every sort of policy question involving science. Muzzling the experts helped the White House muscle its revisionist plans through. But in numerous cases it prevented them from implementing even their own plans effectively.

Everyone is compromised by bias, agendas, and ideology. But at the heart of the revisionist mindset is the belief that there is really nothing more than that. Ideology isn't just the prism through which we see world, or a pervasive tilt in the way a person understands a given set of facts. Ideology is really all there is. For an administration that has been awfully hard on the French, that mindset is...well, rather French. They are like deconstructionists and post-modernists who say that everything is political or that everything is ideology. That mindset makes it easy to ignore the facts or brush them aside because "the facts" aren't really facts, at least not as most of us understand them. If they come from people who don't agree with you, they're just the other side's argument dressed up in a mantle of facticity. And if that's all the facts are, it's really not so difficult to go out and find a new set of them. The fruitful and dynamic tension between political goals and disinterested expert analysis becomes impossible.

Doctrinaire as they may be in the realm of policy, the president's advisors are the most hard-boiled sort of pragmatists when it comes to gaining and holding on to political power. And there's no way they planned to head into their reelection campaign with a half-trillion-dollar deficit looming over their heads and an unpredictable, bleeding guerrilla war in Iraq on their hands. At the level of tactics and execution, the administration's war on expertise has already yielded some very disappointing, indeed dangerous results. And if that gets you worried, just remember that the same folks are in charge of the grand strategy too.

Joshua Micah Marshall is a Washington Monthly contributing writer and editor of www.talkingpointsmemo.com.

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