Immigration issues

[G M]

JDN,

I did those nasty, low paying jobs. It motivated me to find a different line of work. Minimum wage jobs are supposed to be transitory, entry level positions, not lifelong jobs held by a permanent underclass, no matter how hardworking.

[JDN]

JDN,

I did those nasty, low paying jobs. It motivated me to find a different line of work. Minimum wage jobs are supposed to be transitory, entry level positions, not lifelong jobs held by a permanent underclass, no matter how hardworking.

I did too.  As a child I delivered papers (up hills on my bike I cannot even ride today and I bike a lot), I worked graveyard
shift in a commercial bakery and my hands bled.  I washed dishes, dug ditches, worked
in a warehouse, did retail, I was a scab "protecting truck drivers" (that was a joke given my size) etc.
I also walked to school two miles each day.  But I went to college (these jobs helped pay for it) on scholarship and loans where I cleaned
toilets just to avoid, like you, having to do that the rest of my life.  Somehow, todays youth doesn't do that.  It is a different world.
And a different subject.

[ccp]

"He gave me a quizzical look and said they "don't work as hard". 

Yes, a lot of people say that.  But does anyone then go on to the next step and ask *why* they work harder.'

It ain't for a love of working like a dog.  It ain't that they wouldn't like to work less hard.  It isn't for any special philosophical coveting of some sort of "work ethic ideal."  It is because they *have* to work harder.
They HAVE to prove something.  I saw the same thing with foreigners in our medical training program.  Many would go the extra 5 or 10%.  Why?  Because they felt they had something to prove.  They didn't feel as secure as we did. 

Those in the low paying fields also may need to work long hours precisely to make up for lower wages and precisely so they do get hired.  They HAVE to work harder.
They have to prove something in order to GET HIRED in the first place.

And that is precisely why the welfare state of our bleeding heart liberals is contributing to the failure of this country.  And no I don't agree that  having swarms of illegals coming in is a *gain* for all of us.  Not while they can obtain free benefits for themselves or their "citizen" children.

And they take jobs Americans won't do because Americans don't have to.  Because the safety net has become an "entitlement" net.

I am only beginning to hear people with enough courage on radio or amongst a few politicians running for office saying this.  Most of the incumbents are political cowards, or bribed, or afraid of being painted as politically incorrect.

I am not so sure that saying people should not retire at 65 is political suicide anymore.

[JDN]

It is because they *have* to work harder.
They HAVE to prove something.  I saw the same thing with foreigners in our medical training program.  Many would go the extra 5 or 10%.  Why?  Because they felt they had something to prove.  They didn't feel as secure as we did. 

Personally, I think there is something to be said for the doctor, lawyer or ditch digger who "would go the extra 5 or 10%."  Maybe, it's because they went the extra 5-10%, and probably more, that in the end they are a little bit better?  They want to improve their life.  And they want to prove to others that they can do it.  Isn't that the American way?  As a patient, or as a client, or as an employer, don't you want someone who goes the extra 5-10%? 

[JDN]

Time to buy that lotto ticket, I guess.

I would, but I think I've used up all of my fortuitous good luck for the time being.   

[ccp]

"As a patient, or as a client, or as an employer, don't you want someone who goes the extra 5-10%?"

Again you miss my point - or simply don't want to address it.

We as Americans have to work harder.
We have to stop sitting back and expecting we are entitled.
We have to stop the dole.

When that happens Americans will work just as hard as the next guys.
And you miss the point.  This is not just about employers saving on some payroll.  This is about our institutions going broke with services provided to illegals.

This is about Americans letting them come in here and take  jobs they should be doing.  This is about Americans refusing to work because they can collect

Based on your logic we could completely replace all Americans with foreigners who will work harder for less.
What do you do for a living?  I think we could easily find someone in some other country bring them here illegally for 10 less pay and you are out of a job.
Or lets give them all work visas and make it illegal.  Now you are happy.
That is the American way? no?



 

[ccp]

eom

[ccp]

not illegal.
sorry for 2 mistakes.

[prentice crawford]

Woof,
 Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold up here! Where is the outrage? The boycotts? The cries of racial profiling? Oh that's right, when a Dem city, owned by Obama does it, it's all good.

 www.suntimes.com/news/24-7/2409672,CST-NWS-aliens19.article

                                 P.C.

[DougMacG]

The good news for states that were hit harder and hit earlier with the illegals problem is that if it is this troublesome and dangerous all the way up to the midwest and in Obama's home neighborhood, maybe more people from more political perspectives will really start saying enough is enough.

[prentice crawford]

Woof,
 A majority of Americans (70% in latest polls), from across the political spectrum (40% Dem's), say that we need to secure the border and get illegal immigration under control; the problem is our ultra Left leaning news media and press, only gives voice and support to the radical open borders, race baiting, extremist among us and at the same time mischaracterize, misinform, and miss the  point that illegal immigration is detrimental to Americans on a number of different levels and its only benefits come from the exploitation of the poor.
                                       P.C.

[Rarick]

Those dirty nasty jobs are ones the teenagers held to supplement the allowence that daddy paid.  They HAD to work those jobs to get the car to get the girl.............  Since those jobs are now taken by illegals, the teens can't get the job that is already filled.  They have to find another way to get that car...........

[isabell]

this thing is spreading http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_nebraska_immigration  many people see what is happening I have watched immigration increase for the last 10 yrs. Alot of ppl thought I was nuts and a racist ,bigot when I'd talk out . I've watched good ppl lose jobs when alot of companies moved to Mexico and now I'm watching illegals work where alot of americans are in the unemployment lines. And as for them working harder I have not really noticed this to be true. They might start a job by working hard but after a while they tend to walk off and not be found for awhile or they take long breaks,I've worked beside them many times .

[JDN]

Isabell, why do you think you are "watching illegals work where alot of americans are in the unemployment lines."

[isabell]

One of the reasons they are working is because they work cheap.This is one of the things out of this recession that americans are waking up to and its not pretty folks. Big fat paychecks are not there anymore. I've worked hard ..it seems like forever. And this economy has hit me hard, but I'm still working. The thing is that alot of companies are looking for ways to get rid of workers who aren't good at their high paying jobs to bring in cheap labor. Hey this is america and for along time we have been living the dream. Many ppl just weren't prepared for the fallout. So if you have a job you'd better do your damnedest to keep it, because these little immigrants will be right there to take it.

[prentice crawford]

Woof,
 I agree that companies are cutting corners everywhere they can and that by increasing the work load and degrading working conditions, American workers are being forced out of jobs because of injuries and just walking away because of the sweatshop mentality. The question is, where is OHSA and the Department of Labor? We are being hung out to dry folks and we are catching it from all sides both politically and from greed.
                                               P.C.

[prentice crawford]

Woof,
 Well to answer my own question:

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/eyeblast-tv-staff/2010/06/21/video-obama-admin-says-it-will-fight-illegals-wages

 Does this make sense to anyone? They are here illegally, it's illegal to hire them, they have no Green Card or work visa but Obama and the Labor Department is going to make sure their check is right? How are they going to verify this? How about as soon as they know that someone is working here illegally, they deport them and prosecute the employer that hired them? This is just outrageous.

                                     P.C.

[prentice crawford]

Woof,
 And even more interference:

www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/06/21/republicans-interior-stop-charging-millions-border-patrol/

 The fence would stop the incredible damage being done by illegals trashing the border area which has a much worse impact than building a fence and to top that there is this;

www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/16/closes-park-land-mexico-border-americans/?loomia_ow=t0:s0:a16:g12:r5:c0.233924:b35113564:z6

www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/22/mexican-gangs-permanent-lookouts-parkland/

 Now Americans are banned from our own state and federal parks because criminals from a foreign nation have invaded us while our government sets on its hands.

                               P.C.

[ccp]

isabell,
I agree with 100%.
I was watching a person from that small town in Nebraska that wants to enforce illegal immigration law being interviewed.
She was so nervous so hesitant to speak the truth for fear of being called a bigot.  She starts off with the obligatory, "I am not a racist" line.  It is obvious illegals and the Dems in this country who want their votes are using the threat of the "racist" or "bigot" label like a gun to the heads of legal residents who speak up.  This is crazy.
***All empolyers in the USA should simply scour the world for people willing to work for less.
Hey why not?  We dcould replace the entire work force of the whole country.
So what if they are illegal.  Or why not make the legal and give them work visas.***

It will only end when the phoney hypocrit liberals own jobs are at stake.

The American way, yes JDN?

 

[JDN]

All empolyers in the USA should simply scour the world for people willing to work for less.

The American way, yes JDN?
 

Yes, the American Way....

PC said, "A majority of Americans (70% in latest polls), from across the political spectrum (40% Dem's), say that we need to secure the border and get illegal immigration under control" Somewhere else,
I cannot find it, he said, or someone else said, to paraphrase, we need to crack down on employer's too.  As you referenced,  I too "want to enforce illegal immigration law"  I think most Americans agree;
and we are not bigots.  It doesn't matter if you are  white, black, brown or yellow; illegal is simply illegal.  The word "illegal" is quite clear.  That is not being bigoted, but if you focus on one ethnic group, that is
being bigoted.

Note, I strongly agree with all of the above 100%.  For various reasons, including national security, we need to crack down on illegal immigrants.  "How" is a challenge, but one we must face.

However, that being said, I think, and I think most on this forum agree, "free market functions to bring labor and capital together".  THAT is the American Way.

In a competitive world, we all need to offer either better service, a better product, or a lower price.  That includes Labor.  But Isabell, and you, if I read correctly, are implying we need to restrict legal immigration too.
It seems you want to "protect" jobs in America.  You seem to support "keep American jobs for Americans".  A "liberal" idea.  You sarcastically said, "All empolyers in the USA should simply scour the world for people willing to work for less."  Well why not?  Basically, businesses are already doing that in our global economy.  That is how a free market functions.

However, rather than offering a better service/ability or better price (labor) it seems you are proposing that we "protect" our markets and workforce.  Odd, to me this sounds more like bleeding liberal union member, not a  laissez-faire free market business plan.  In contrast, I personally think we should open our doors and expand legal immigration.  Take the health field for example; the AMA is in essence a strong Union restricting membership.  Why not invite and allow qualified doctors from Canada, England, Germany, etc. who can pass a rigid Medical Exam to practice here in America?  If you are a "better" doctor, a more qualified doctor, I assume your business will still thrive.  However, if money is an issue, maybe a patient will will go to the less qualified, "foreign doctor" who charges less.  But as a doctor, if you cannot add value, and/or are unwilling to lower costs, then, like any business you will fail.  Again, the American Way.

One of the problems of our Health Insurance delivery system is that Hospital Emergency Rooms are overwhelmed by uninsured, indigent, or illegal patients.   However, one of the primary reasons is that doctors are unwilling to see these low pay patients in their office.  They say, "it's not cost efficient" for them to do so.  But frankly a doctor's office is a lot more cost efficient than a high tech Hospital ER room, yet the individual doctor does not want to lower their wage.  I bet a doctor from Mexico practicing here in a large Latino population would offer a lower rate...  Why not?

One thing about the legal profession.  Love them or hate them, while each one must pass the same tough license exam, some make millions of dollars per year and others barely survive.  No protection; it truly is a few market based profession.  It's Darwin at it's best.  So is accounting......  That is the American Way.  Protecting your job, restricting who can practice/work in your field, whether you are a doctor, lawyer, or dishwasher  is not the American Way.

Isabel said, "One of the reasons they are working is because they work cheap."  Well, again that is the American Way.  McDonald's employees make close to minimal wages; McDonald's sells primarily based upon price.  However, a high end Beverly Hills restaurant will pay it's sous chef quite a bit; they sell on quality.  Wall Mart versus Hermes.  It's just a different business plan. But the American Way is to minimize costs (labor is one aspect) to obtain the maximum profit.  Business 101.  Capitalism.

Also, I find it a bit odd that on this site, a conservative free market site, of which I am generally a proponent, some people are asking, "where is OHSA and the Department of Labor?"  Isn't that "big government"?  Sounds like a "liberal" idea?  Yet I too think they are necessary.  We don't want to go back to sweat shops of another era; we need government supervision and intervention.  But within safety guidelines, basic minimum wage guidelines, why not open up markets/jobs to the new, the innovative, the hard working....

As Emma Lazarus said,
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free...

That is the American Way...

[DougMacG]

I agree with this point JDN made: "For various reasons, including national security, we need to crack down on illegal immigrants."

Expanding or even continuing legal immigration is another issue.  I would consider expanding legal immigration if NOT for the illegal problem, but that is moot.  Border security must come first and then some form of normalcy/stability.

The situation in Fremont Nebraska will be interesting.  I am familiar with the town only from driving through.  The needs of employers for low cost workers does not trump national security.  You do not have expand citizenship to get workers but overstaying a work visa is a major part of the problem, including at least 6 of the 9/11 hijackers.  Workers overstaying visas should be the easiest to track down if anyone was tracking.

The feds could require employers to disclose who they hire and the feds could require companies to transmit copies of papers to help with the screening, especially with companies or industries with known problems, but the feds should not be making companies do the job that they won't do.

As a landlord I have been curious if I am in more trouble for renting to an illegal or for turning down someone for suspecting they are illegal or that their documents are phony.  In Fremont, you will be violating city ordinance to rent to illegals and violating federal housing law if you treat them at all differently based on anything other than proof of illegality.  If you have ever messed with federal housing law (or employment law) you will certainly err on the side of NON-discrimination.

I do not think there are many sweatshops, substandard workplaces or under-regulated businesses left in America.  The stockyards and meatpacking may be ugly places but I'm sure they are USDA inspected and the pay is relatively high for unskilled work in a small town.

We know the Census did not care if they were legal or not.  Hard to hold employers to a higher standard than the U.S. government in a constitutional mandate to count its people.

I wonder what the credit agencies know; they know almost everything about almost everybody.  The problem is that we are not really trying to find out who is here, who is illegal or do anything about it, much less close the border.

[Rarick]

I would have no problem doubling or tripling the legal immigration quota and loosening those requirements quite a bit.  The only requirements being : "Is this new person really wanting to be a citizen of this country?", "does this person have a clean bill of health?", " what is the possible threat of this person as far as terrorism/crime?"   A no answer to a single one of those questions during a probation period should mean a deportation. 

As for illegal activities on the border, invasions by criminals......... They defined the force levels when they started killing US Citizens trying to maintain their fencelines and property rights. Roll in with an Omega Team and Gunships.  Back track to the base in Mexico and Obliterate it.  The legitamate members of the Mexican Government will be secretly ecstatic, they ones corrupted by the cartels will create political mayhem.  What can Mexico REALLY do to hurt us?  Cut the boil out regardless of the squealing, and hopefully a healthier patient will thank us for it.  If not, we can drop Nafta- it would hurt them way more than us, and I think they may be in violation of several aspects anyway.   Nafta was a mutual treaty, a "you do this, and so do we" setup.  Different from the nature of the Geneva Accords where we took a "boy scout oath" right?

[isabell]

There has always been capitalism n America. This country was founded on capitalism. Sure we got alot of other things that are great or once were. Freedom of speech which we use in written form here. Freedom of religion...which we seem to be losing ..or at least we seem to be losing are right to speak about our religion because we offend those that are not religious. Our rights are growing smaller everyday. (did you know that Ireland has become the stab capital of the world) They took their guns away. I'm not saying go shoot someone. But criminals while use whats at hand. A gun in some cases might be better. Ppl wont try to stop someone with a gun where they might think they can overpower a criminal with a knife...next they will take thier knives away.

The rights of Americans have slowly been deteriorating for years. And the article that P.C. put up about the park closer is terrible.I'm sure alot of citizens are very mad at this. Has anyone ever visited Laredo or eagles pass in Texas right on the border and very dangerous places to be...if you know any truck drivers ask them if they ever go there. Alot of them don't like the border towns. People come up missing all the time. And have for years.  I drove for awhile the border patrol stops you when you leave these towns. Its pretty scary they have dogs and they are armed. Their dog went off one time as I was coming thru. I had my dog in the back. I had to get out and show them all I had was my shepard and then I had to show all her paperwork. But now I'm thankful for what they did ..just doing their job.

[ccp]

U.S. Department of Illegal Alien Labor
By Michelle Malkin  •  June 25, 2010 08:49 AM

My syndicated column today takes aim at open-borders Labor Secretary Hilda Solis. She’s already a familiar character to those of you who read Culture of Corruption (and here’s a reminder of the roll call vote on her Senate confirmation.)

***

The U.S. Department of Illegal Alien Labor
by Michelle Malkin
Creators Syndicate
Copyright 2010

President Obama’s Labor Secretary Hilda Solis is supposed to represent American workers. What you need to know is that this longtime open-borders sympathizer has always had a rather radical definition of “American.” At a Latino voter registration project conference in Los Angeles many years ago, Solis asserted to thunderous applause, “We are all Americans, whether you are legalized or not.”

That’s right. The woman in charge of enforcing our employment laws doesn’t give a hoot about our immigration laws — or about the fundamental distinction between those who followed the rules in pursuit of the American dream and those who didn’t.

While in Congress, she opposed strengthening the border fence, supported expansion of illegal alien benefits (including driver’s licenses and in-state tuition discounts), embraced sanctuary cities that refused to cooperate with federal homeland security officials to enforce immigration laws, and aggressively championed a mass amnesty. Solis was steeped in the pro-illegal alien worker organizing movement in Southern California and was buoyed by amnesty-supporting Big Labor groups led by the Service Employees International Union (see also Trevor Loudon’s profile of her radical far-left ties). She has now caused a Capitol Hill firestorm over her new taxpayer-funded advertising and outreach campaign to illegal aliens regarding fair wages:

“I’m here to tell you that your president, your secretary of labor and this department will not allow anyone to be denied his or her rightful pay — especially when so many in our nation are working long, hard and often dangerous hours,” Solis says in the video pitch. “We can help, and we will help. If you work in this country, you are protected by our laws. And you can count on the U.S. Department of Labor to see to it that those protections work for you.”

To be sure, no one should be scammed out of “fair wages.” Employers that hire and exploit illegal immigrant workers deserve full sanctions and punishment. But it’s the timing, tone-deafness and underlying blanket amnesty agenda of Solis’ illegal alien outreach that has so many American workers and their representatives on Capitol Hill rightly upset.

With double-digit unemployment and a growing nationwide revolt over Washington’s border security failures, why has Solis chosen now to hire 250 new government field investigators to bolster her illegal alien workers’ rights campaign? (Hint: Leftists unhappy with Obama’s lack of progress on “comprehensive immigration reform” need appeasing. This is a quick bone to distract them.)

Unfortunately, the federal government is not alone in lavishing attention and resources on workers who shouldn’t be here in the first place. As of 2008, California, Florida, Nevada, New York, Texas and Utah all expressly included illegal aliens in their state workers’ compensation plans — and more than a dozen other states implicitly cover them.

Solis’ public service announcement comes on the heels of little-noticed but far more troubling comments encouraging illegal alien workers in the Gulf Coast. Earlier this month, in the aftermath of the BP oil spill, according to Spanish language publication El Diario La Prensa, Solis signaled that her department was going out of its way to shield illegal immigrant laborers involved in cleanup efforts. “My purpose is to assist the workers with respect to safety and protection,” she said. “We’re protecting all workers regardless of migration status because that’s the federal law.” She told reporters that her department was in talks with local Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officials who had visited coastal worksites to try to verify that workers were legal.

No word yet on whether she gave ICE her “we are all Americans, whether you are legalized or not” lecture. But it’s a safe bet.

[ccp]

You state:

"Note, I strongly agree with all of the above 100%.  For various reasons, including national security, we need to crack down on illegal immigrants.  "How" is a challenge, but one we must face."

The difficulty is all politics.  We have a major party in this nation that sees immigrants as more voters.  They are blocking our ability to do anything.

The way to stop it is easy.  Stop the benefits, stop allowing employers to hire them, make it law that any illegal couple who has a child here can NEVER ever obtain citizenship and viola.  They will be going home.

That's my answer.  You appear to agree "100%" to crack down on them yet all you do is put up endless roadblocks with your arguments.

The benefits they receive is greater than any contribution to this nation.  We are going broke and we continue to dole out to them. 

What do you think we should do??

[Crafty_Dog]

ILlegal immigrants (and amnestying them into Dem votes) are one issue.

An additional issue is the loyalty of those who come.
---------------------------------------


Call the Capital switchboard 202-224-3121 and ask for your Sen/Rep office 
NOW TO STOP DE FACTO AMNESTY  THAT BY-PASSES CONGRESS !!!
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


This amnesty could go in place just by federal bureaucrats  taking an
action that the President just lets happen. He would merely have to  give his
quiet consent to DHS Sec.  Napolitano massively abusing one or both of two
powers she already has: 

1) parole  authority

2)  prosecutorial discretion to grant "deferred action".

These are intended  to be used in individual cases, not as a blanket
amnesty to cover millions. But  we have received information from both Democratic
and Republican offices that  they have been told from people inside the
Department of Homeland Security that "parole" and  "deferred action" are being
looked at as a way to get around the fact that  Congress is not going to vote
for an amnesty this year.

We should be petitioning both Obama and Napolitano to abandon any plans to 
usurp Congress' Constitutional authority over immigration by abusing the 
Secretary's restricted parole and prosecutorial discretion authority to 
accomplish an amnesty for illegal aliens.

[JDN]

I don't quite get it; while I am not in favor of amnesty for illegal aliens, we already did it once.  In 1986 President Reagan, a Republican,
signed the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986.  Why is going easy on illegal immigrants suddenly a sinister Democrat ploy to gain additional votes?  

As for your comment Crafty, what does "the loyalty of those who come" mean?

As Rarick posted, "I would have no problem doubling or tripling the legal immigration quota and loosening those requirements quite a bit."  I agree.
CCP; I'm still waiting for your comment on this matter.  It seems to go counter to your beliefs.

Rarick also posted "does this person have a clean bill of health?", " what is the possible threat of this person as far as terrorism/crime?"  
If that is your question/issue, I agree.  Healthy and no threat; that should be a given.

However, Rarick also posted, "Is this new person really wanting to be a citizen of this country?"
Is this your question Crafty?

I'm not sure why this is relevant assuming the person meets Rarick's above two requirements and is a legal alien.  I have many legal immigrant friends
working here on a legal green card; some have become US citizens, others have kept their own citizenship yet continue to work and contribute
to this country and pay taxes.  Is there something wrong with this?  Or H1 Visas? Or ..... Or even how about legal tourists?  While I expect all legal immigrants
to be law abiding people, I do not expect them to have loyalty to the USA versus their own country.  For a year I worked
in London, but my loyalty was always to the USA.

[DougMacG]

Regarding Reagan, he did his part on the compromise but the rest that was promised never happened - no closing of the border and no end to the illegal migration.  There is no way to project from that failed false compromise that he would ever support doing it again.  He did relate with the people who risked it all for a shot at building a better life through hard work.  Today is different.  We are much less an opportunity society and much more headed in the direction of a welfare state.  CCP is the one who has nailed this.  We need to become much less of a welfare state as part of the 'comprehensive' solution and then people would violate our borders in smaller numbers for better reasons.

Amnesty today IS a Democrat sinister plot to deputize more voters.  CCP has nailed that from the start as well.  Both sides admit it. A few Republicans like Karl Rove and John McCain recognized that R's need to get on board politically regardless of principle.  The momentum on this one though is shifting back with the impressive popularity of the Arizona measure - back to standing on principle and respecting a just law.

If we passed a 'comprehensive' bill today (amnesty), it would do nothing to either slow the continuing illegal migration or create any incentive to ever secure the border, which means that again it would fail.

[Rarick]

I don't quite get it; while I am not in favor of amnesty for illegal aliens, we already did it once.  In 1986 President Reagan, a Republican,
signed the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986.  Why is going easy on illegal immigrants suddenly a sinister Democrat ploy to gain additional votes? 

As for your comment Crafty, what does "the loyalty of those who come" mean?

As Rarick posted, "I would have no problem doubling or tripling the legal immigration quota and loosening those requirements quite a bit."  I agree.
CCP; I'm still waiting for your comment on this matter.  It seems to go counter to your beliefs.

Rarick also posted "does this person have a clean bill of health?", " what is the possible threat of this person as far as terrorism/crime?" 
If that is your question/issue, I agree.  Healthy and no threat; that should be a given.

However, Rarick also posted, "Is this new person really wanting to be a citizen of this country?"
Is this your question Crafty?

I'm not sure why this is relevant assuming the person meets Rarick's above two requirements and is a legal alien.  I have many legal immigrant friends
working here on a legal green card; some have become US citizens, others have kept their own citizenship yet continue to work and contribute
to this country and pay taxes.  Is there something wrong with this?  Or H1 Visas? Or ..... Or even how about legal tourists?  While I expect all legal immigrants
to be law abiding people, I do not expect them to have loyalty to the USA versus their own country.  For a year I worked
in London, but my loyalty was always to the USA.

People on work visas are not immigrants, you were not an immigrant working in London.  If you had wanted to stay the rest of your life in London- you would have been an immigrant- and subject to the loyalty issue.  Also the issue of what kind of medical and governmental acces you would have would come up.

If you want to work in the tribal lands, but do not wish to join the tribe you have to expect members of the tribe to consider you an outsider.  That would mean a tribe member would have preference for access to the Chief, Medicene man, shaman.....etc.  That does not mean that you do not have basic human rights, it just means you do not get tribal benefits since you are choosing not to belong.

[JDN]

People on work visas are not immigrants, you were not an immigrant working in London.  If you had wanted to stay the rest of your life in London- you would have been an immigrant- and subject to the loyalty issue.  Also the issue of what kind of medical and governmental acces you would have would come up.

If you want to work in the tribal lands, but do not wish to join the tribe you have to expect members of the tribe to consider you an outsider.  That would mean a tribe member would have preference for access to the Chief, Medicene man, shaman.....etc.  That does not mean that you do not have basic human rights, it just means you do not get tribal benefits since you are choosing not to belong.

I think for this discussion the definition of "immigrant" is anyone who has come from another country.  "Legal Immigrant" is anyone in this country with legal (government) permission.  An "illegal immigrant" in contrast does not have legal permission to be here and has entered the country without permission and/or has overstayed their legal allowable time without government permission.  The issue of how long they stay or don't stay is not the point. People on a work Visa are an immigrant.  People on a Green Card (Permanent Resident Card) are immigrants.  People who sneak across the border are immigrants, albeit illegal ones. 

Think about it.  "If you want to stay the rest of your life" in America; well, how do you necessarily know that before you have lived here for a while. Only after you have been here for a while can you legally and logically decide.  It's complicated, but in general to become a naturalized American Citizen you must live here for a few years first before you are eligible for citizenship.  However, under the eyes of our government, you are an immigrant from the day you arrive.

That said, I agree citizens should have the most rights and they do.  Legal Immigrants (Visa holders) should have nearly as many rights, however illegal immigrants should only have minimal basic human rights rights.

[G M]

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001101----000-.html

The term “alien” means any person not a citizen or national of the United States.


http://www.dhs.gov/files/statistics/data/dslpr.shtm

Legal permanent residents (LPRs) are foreign nationals who have been granted the right to reside permanently in the United States. LPRs are often referred to simply as "immigrants," but they are also known as "permanent resident aliens" and "green card holders."

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=a39e901bf9873210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=a39e901bf9873210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD

Working in the US


The United States welcomes thousands of foreign workers in multiple occupations or employment categories every year. These include artists, researchers, cultural exchange participants, information technology specialists, religious workers, investors, scientists, athletes, nurses, agricultural workers and others. All foreign workers must obtain permission to work legally in the United States. Each employment category for admission has different requirements, conditions and authorized periods of stay. It is important that you adhere to the terms of your application or petition for admission and visa. Any violation can result in removal or denial of re-entry into the United States.

Temporary (Nonimmigrant) Worker
A temporary worker is an individual seeking to enter the United States temporarily for a specific purpose. Nonimmigrants enter the United States for a temporary period of time, and once in the United States, are restricted to the activity or reason for which their nonimmigrant visa was issued.

Permanent (Immigrant) Worker
A permanent worker is an individual who is authorized to live and work permanently in the United States.

 Students and Exchange Visitors
Students and exchange visitors may, under certain circumstances, be allowed to work in the United States. They must obtain permission from an authorized official at their school. The authorized official is known as a Designed School Official (DSO) for students and the Responsible Officer (RO) for exchange visitors.

Information for Employers & Employees
Employers must verify that an individual whom they plan to employ or continue to employ in the United States is authorized to accept employment in the United States. Individuals, such as those who have been admitted as permanent residents, granted asylum or refugee status, or admitted in work-related nonimmigrant classifications, may have employment authorization as a direct result of their immigration status. Other aliens may need to apply individually for employment authorization.

Temporary Visitors For Business
To visit the United States for business purposes you will need to obtain a visa as a temporary visitor for business (B-1 visa), unless you qualify for admission without a visa under the Visa Waiver Program. For more information on the topics above, select the category related to your situation to the left.

[ccp]

"I don't quite get it; while I am not in favor of amnesty for illegal aliens, we already did it once."

I guess you don't.  It is quite astonishing really that you can say you are against illegal aliens 100% yet you find every argument you can think of to skirt the issue which is we have a flood of illegals using more than they contribute, we have a huge unemployment problem, we have a huge expanding debt problem, we are going bankrupt, we have a Dem controlled governement that refuses to do anything about it, we have Republicans who are afraid of offending legal latino voters, we have citizens afraid to speak out for fear of being labelled racist and the rest, and all you can do is find every reason to explain what NOT to do.

I do not believe you are against illegals.  This statement is incongruent with your arguments.

As for raising the number for legal citizenship pathway I have been quite clear I personally am completely against that.  What I am for is encouraging legal Americans to work harder and stop relying on 1/2 of the country to continue supporting them through taxation - period.  It is really quite simple.  The problem is the politicians are for themselves - not for the good of this nation.   

[JDN]

"I don't quite get it; while I am not in favor of amnesty for illegal aliens, we already did it once."

I guess you don't.  It is quite astonishing really that you can say you are against illegal aliens 100% yet you find every argument you can think of to skirt the issue which is we have a flood of illegals using more than they contribute, we have a huge unemployment problem, we have a huge expanding debt problem, we are going bankrupt, we have a Dem controlled governement that refuses to do anything about it, we have Republicans who are afraid of offending legal latino voters, we have citizens afraid to speak out for fear of being labelled racist and the rest, and all you can do is find every reason to explain what NOT to do.

I do not believe you are against illegals.  This statement is incongruent with your arguments.

How am I shirting the issue?  Assuming the issue is immigration.  I've said we should stringently enforce all our immigration laws against illegal immigrants AND employers who employ them.  Also we should seriously strengthen our borders to stop the flow.  I mean, I'm running out of ideas.   To say you are going to round up and ship back the 10 million or so illegal immigrants already in this country is simply not practical or realistic. President Reagan granted amnesty because he too knew it was impossible to send everyone back.  But if you enforced and strengthened the immigration laws against employers and therefore there were no jobs for illegals, I bet a lot of them would go back on their own.  And, as Doug pointed out, somehow "close the border". 

However, I do not think that "we have a huge unemployment problem, an expanding debt problem, or that we are going bankrupt, ....." due primarily to our 3-4% low paid illegal immigrants population.  We seem to have done this to ourselves on our own. 

[ccp]

Now we agree.  Thanks for your response.

" I've said we should stringently enforce all our immigration laws against illegal immigrants AND employers who employ them."

I agree and have posted this.

"To say you are going to round up and ship back the 10 million or so illegal immigrants already in this country is simply not practical or realistic."

Only because we don't have the political will but...

"But if you enforced and strengthened the immigration laws against employers and therefore there were no jobs for illegals, I bet a lot of them would go back on their own."

then, I agree with this point.  If we cut off the welfare, the food stamps, the jobs, start enforcing and carding people we wouldn't need to round up people and ship them over the border to wherever they came from.  It would mostly take care of itself.  If we cannot stop the anchor baby loophole then we could do what I otherwise suggest:

OK if illegals come here and have babies partly at our expense and we are stuck having to give them *automatic* citizenship, then those who abuse our country and our system by explicitly taking advantage of this loop hole are punishable by NEVER EVER being granted citizenship in their lifetime for any reason irregardless of their children's system.

Yes I work alongside some obvious illlegals.  Yes I look at them with sympathy.  But I also feel enraged that these people come here knowing that they can get benefits, hospital care, break our immigration laws, have babies that go to our tax funded schools, then turn around and call us racist, bigots and all the rest if we should even hint at protesting.

I am tired of being stupid.  I say again go back to your countries, whether it be in Asia, Africa, Caribbean, South/Central America, Mexico, Canada, Europe and get in line.

"I do not think that "we have a huge unemployment problem, an expanding debt problem, or that we are going bankrupt, ....." due primarily to our 3-4% low paid illegal immigrants population."

Surely illegals are only a part of the problem and probably only a small part of it.  But they are part of it.  As I think I posted:  It is estimated that probably half of the lost or unfunded facility (hospital care) costs in NJ are due to illegals.  Our insurance rates go up yearly at least in part because of this.  The health system has to get that back from somewhere.

That is significant, outrageous.

And the fact that Democrats are siding with foreigners who are breaking the law from day one!



   

 

[ccp]

"of their children's system."

should be:  of their children' *status*.

[G M]

1. Seal the border. It can be done, it needs to have been done a long time ago.

2. Any employer found employing illegal aliens has all the businesses assets seized.

3. Any person wishing to transfer funds outside the US must be a US citizen, permanent resident alien. Make it a felony to transfer money for an illegal alien.

4. Any entity found providing services to illegal aliens is cut off from fedewral funding for a minimum of 5 years.

5. All levels of law enforcement enforcing laws regarding illegal immigration.

Stop rewarding illegal immigration, start enforcing the laws and the majority will self-deport.

[isabell]

http://cofcc.org/2010/02/one-half-of-all-immigrant-families-on-welfare/

One half of all immigrant families on welfare!
Across America, every state, county, and city is going bankrupt. The state in the worst shape is California which is now 58% non-white.

Welfare, free health care, and other public services to immigrants is pushing America to the brink. Instead of closing the border, Obama recently issued a back door amnesty for illegal aliens from Haiti. Even releasing Haitian illegal aliens from detention centers who have already been convicted of crimes in the United States!

Interesting read.

[G M]

http://cofcc.org/introduction/statement-of-principles/

We also oppose all efforts to mix the races of mankind, to promote non-white races over the European-American people through so-called “affirmative action” and similar measures, to destroy or denigrate the European-American heritage, including the heritage of the Southern people, and to force the integration of the races.

 

Perhaps this group is not a good source of information.

[Crafty_Dog]

Methinks GM is quite correct.

Folks, yes we post our sources so others can size things up for themselves, but let us filter out obviously unworthy sources or at least note the dubious nature of the source when we quote it.

[Crafty_Dog]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-VMMweYcd8

[G M]

This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Journal Broadcast Group, Inc..

[isabell]

Its to bad that you feel this article not worthy because of a statement of principle. Lots of orgaizations have statements similar to this. The thing is you have to look at the organization as a whole. The good with the bad. My point is that the article is interesting. Alot of things on here that are in links are from fox news...I dont like them and won't watch them ..but I keep an open mind and look them over anyway. I could just say I don't like them and they are unworthy.All articles are things that make you think and as craftydog said .A person has to make up his own mind on what he wants to see in the written word. But to deem an article unworthy because you don't like a statement of principle ...is like calling the kettle black....unworthy..lol. Do to me what you will I stand on my principle of the article...think about it ..its what all of you have been saying anyway.

[G M]

My interest in stopping illegal immigration is the preservation of the rule of law and American ideals. America is a universal nation , not a "white" or european nation. We are founded on ideas, not a skin color or ethnicity. I welcome lawful immigrants who wish to become Americans, no matter from where on the planet they come from or what they look like, just so long as they love and honor this nation.

I want nothing to do with any racist group that holds an allegance to a race or ethnicity over their loyalty to this nation, no matter if it's the cofcc.org, La Raza or Obama's church of 20 + years.

[Body-by-Guinness]

Leave the bigoted sources for Prison Planet or the white, black, brown, red, or whatever supremacist sites. Bad sources taint the whole argument; making a valid point should not have to rely on racist web sites or any other source.

[Crafty_Dog]

GM and BBG are exactly right.

[isabell]

Well I can see your point on that. The article is interesting though. The point of racism is something I always overlook. My oldest two childern are biracial and I have just learned from many years of dealing with this to just ignore it .....they are beautiful kids American Samoan and me. A very happy and loving people. But we have had some hard times. Its just a thing. But many people are afraid of this. And then comes the racism. Its just a site and their principles arent mine . But I do use them I have wrote many articles for college on immigration.And as I stated before I have been watching immigration for the last 10 yrs. Tolerance is the same as patience it takes alot to make the world go round. With the rate of immigration growing both illegal and legal and its not all mexicians we are dealing with. I deal with 4 haitian families everyday. Its amazing our government has them in the apartment complex  I help run. Not only are we the tax payers paying their rent but we are also paying for them to have domestic lessons,driving lessons and for them to have small business classes...so the government can set them up in business. I've never had any of this for free. But they are refugee's and I do feel sorry for them because some of them have never used a stove before , their lives are so different from ours. In this modern age to have never used a stove or a micro wave....I wouldn't know how to cook without a stove.

[isabell]

And to the good people of this forum..who read the article and found it interesting ..without going into politics and racism I bid you all farewell...I came here to discuss an issue I have alot of interest in. Years as a mater of fact . But I feel that your all very narrow minded and cannot see an interesting article for what it is...interesting......it does not matter where it comes from and it does not seem that anyone here can see anything but what you all claim s right. I'm pretty much a free thinker and I love America...Army here 1978-1981 I served my time. My husband retired Army. My son is a marine now and I have a daughter going Army. They are biracial and I'm as proud as I can be of them. And as an American I think I can I very loyal to America.

[Crafty_Dog]

The Adventure continues.

[prentice crawford]

Woof,
 Wow. Some folk's stepping off point is mighty close. Anyway, in light of the fact that the open borders folks and the press and the Left in general and every other whack job in the country that want to destabilize and ultimately cause the fall of our Constitutional Republic, as envisioned by our Founding Fathers, consistently paint anyone that wants our laws enforced and our borders secure as being racist, bigoted, human rights abusers as a way of discrediting them and smearing them so that no one, in or out of power, that has any ability to get some forward movement with actually getting something done, won't have anything to do with it because they don't want to be associated in any way with racist, bigoted, human rights abusers. Now it is hard enough just dealing with out and out lies and being wrongfully smeared has a racist just because we want the laws already put in place to protect us from all the problems associated with an unsecured border and illegal immigration rightfully enforced but when you pull something in that actually is tainted with racism then the wacko's win. It doesn't matter if the article said, "God is good.", we still lose our legitmate place as citizens simply concerned with the rule of law, and rightfully so because there is no justification for hate or racist views in this issue, whatsoever, however slight. When we fail to recognise this we become our own worst enemy.
                                                                    P.C.

[G M]

http://weaselzippers.us/2010/05/29/obama-admin-trying-to-deport-son-of-hamas-founder-and-christian-convert-who-spied-for-israel-on-grounds-hes-a-security-threat/

There is an alien Obama wants to deport....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/us_and_canada/10469572.stm

'Son of Hamas' granted US asylum
Page last updated at 18:28 GMT, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 19:28 UK
Mr Yousef said he grew disillusioned with Hamas The son of a founder of the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas is to be granted asylum in the US, a judge has ruled.

Mosab Hassan Yousef said he became a spy for Israel's intelligence service and converted to Christianity before moving to California in 2007.

He went public earlier this year when he published his memoir called Son of Hamas.