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Messages - Quijote

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Politics & Religion / Re: 'America Alone'
« on: February 13, 2007, 07:05:04 AM »
I guess I own you an answer:

Well, for some time I've been thinking about a proper response to this thread. All I can say is, I can't give you one.

Steyn's book is funny, easy to read. It's polemic, therefore provocative and also sparkling some good thoughts. I had a good time reading it.

Only problem is, when I look around, I don't see much of this happening. Sure, you're able to dig out some really frightening news articles. From your point of view, Britain must already be a muslim state. And I guess they're even more frightening when you're in sunny California. Europe lived through worse than this.

The future is unpredicatble as ever. Before I read the book I was lot more concerned about this topic, now I've become a lot more indifferent. Maybe because it's interesting to see an old saying coming true  "The clouds are darker from the other side of the river."

Can't really write much more clever than this.  :-)

Politics & Religion / Re: Iraq
« on: January 12, 2007, 02:17:51 PM »
Iraqi campaign against terrorism:

Politics & Religion / Re: Iraq
« on: January 10, 2007, 09:24:39 AM »
What an interesting insight into the Iraqi disputes (aside from its comedic qualities  :wink:). Especially the conflict between former Saddamites (Sunnites) and Shiites, scoffed at by the Sunnites as 'Iranians', 'Persians'. Here comes the difference between Arabians (Sunnites) and Persians (Shiites) to daylight. A distinction very important for the Iraqi people, but basically neglected by the US administration. Unfortunately the Sunnites would be the lesser evil.  The Iranian president can feel confident, the path through Iraq to Isreal is now paved by Shiite enclaves. I question how serious the Shiites take the Iraqi democracy and how long it'll take for them to overthrow it as soon as the US troops leave the country.

Politics & Religion / Re: Russia's relation to Europe
« on: January 10, 2007, 03:55:33 AM »
Russia's energy ressources have become Russia's strong leverage on Europe and the former SU states. An unbearable thought.

Politics & Religion / Russia/US-- Europe
« on: January 09, 2007, 01:30:19 AM »
The german chancellor already is thinking about stopping Germany's plans to close its nuclear reactors. Russia has a power in Europe with its energy ressources. Germany is the first to feel it now.

SPIEGEL ONLINE - January 8, 2007, 03:34 PM

Russia Halts Oil Deliveries to Germany

In an apparent escalation of a gas and oil dispute with Belarus, Russia on Monday temporarily halted oil deliveries to Germany. By shutting off the Druzhba pipeline, Moscow cut off the source of 20 percent of Germany's oil imports.

The conflict between Moscow and Minsk over energy prices worsened on Monday, with potentially serious consequences for Western Europe. Russian pipeline operator Transneft shut down its Druzhba pipeline, which is the source of 20 percent of Germany's oil imports.
Transneft has accused Belarus of illegally tapping oil from the Druzhba pipeline, whose name translates as "friendship". Russian news agency RIA Novosti quoted Transneft chief Simon Vainshtock as saying that the company had stopped oil transports through the pipeline -- which is used to export oil to Poland and Germany -- during the night. The company said it is currently seeking alternative routes for transporting oil to Poland and Germany, but did not provide any information on when the pipeline might be reopened.

The Druzhba pipeline is an enormously important part of Germany's energy supply. Of the total of 112 million tons of oil that are consumed in Germany each year, 20 percent travel through the pipeline.

"I view the closure of the important Druzhba pipeline with concern," German Economics Minister Michael Glos said Monday. "I expect the deliveries through the pipeline to resume completely as soon as possible."

"Druzhba is very relevant for Germany," a spokesperson for the Association of the German Petroleum Industry told SPIEGEL ONLINE. Most German oil imports from Russia travel through the pipeline. The only alternative would be through tanker deliveries, the spokesperson said, but this would cover "only a small portion" of the lost oil. According to the association, there are no other pipelines available to do the job.

Poland's Economics Ministry also confirmed that oil supplies had been interrupted through the Druzhba pipeline on Monday morning. Germany's Economics Ministry confirmed similar trouble.

A spokesperson for European Union Energy Commissioner Andris Piebalgs said the European Commission in Brussels will investigate the interruption of oil supplies. "We have contacted the Russian and Belarussian authorities and demanded an urgent and detailed explanation for this interruption," spokesman Ferran Tarradellas Espuny said.

In the short term, however, physical shortages aren't expected because Germany has strategic oil reserves that can last up to 130 days and Poland has at least 70 days' worth.

Earlier on Monday, deputy Polish economy minister Piotr Naimski told Polish TV station TVN24 that the pipeline had been shut off because of the ongoing energy dispute between Minsk and Moscow. Russia dramatically increased gas prices on Jan. 1 and acquired a controlling interest in Belarussian natural gas pipeline operator Beltransgas. In addition, the Russian government imposed an export duty of $180 per ton on petroleum.
The government in Minsk responded by promptly applying a €34 per ton transit fee for Russian oil exports to Western Europe. So far, Transneft has refused to pay the tax.

Ernst Uhrlau, president of Germany's foreign intelligence service, the BND, said the pipeline outage on Monday underscored the importance of energy security for Germany. Uhrlau said it was important to gather and analyze information about conflicts between states affected in order to try to prevent repeats of the current crisis.


Politics & Religion / Re: Iraq
« on: January 08, 2007, 08:32:40 AM »
I'm afraid the controversy around the hanging of SH and the published mobile video only shows that the patchwork democracy of Iraq is far from being what the west would expect of it. Freedom and law have become caricatured in the hand of a shiite dominated, Sadr loyal, government.

Politics & Religion / Re: 'America Alone'
« on: January 07, 2007, 03:25:57 AM »

Funny. That's a very germanic name. Freya, goddess of the old nordic sagas.

So there are 7141 Georges and Josephs up against 4255 Moes on the 44th place. Other than the muslims showing a *truly disturbing* lack of inventiveness, I still count more Brits here.

Politics & Religion / Re: 'America Alone'
« on: January 07, 2007, 03:18:37 AM »
Ok, finished the book. Like it a lot. Preparing a posting.

How about a cavewoman?

 :-D :wink:

Science, Culture, & Humanities / Re: Philosophy
« on: January 06, 2007, 04:30:50 PM »
Hmmm... free will?

Was it free will of me to post here and now or did I simply have to?
Was it destined of me to read this thread?
Was I destined to write an answer without much content?

 :-D  :wink: :lol:

I guess I pretty much believe in free will, but also do I believe that there are A LOT of forces within us that allow to question wether we act upon free will. Free choice seems to be simple and natural on the surface, but decision finding seems to be a rather complicate process reaching deep within the subconscious material we're made of. Very interesting topic.

Science, Culture, & Humanities / Re: Conan the B. & Robert Howard
« on: December 27, 2006, 06:18:23 AM »
I love Conan! Great illustration!

As far as I can remember, Oliver Stone worked on the script for the first Conan movie. I always found he gave the movie a slightly more dark and sarcastic undertone than it would've had, say, with a Marvelite.

Science, Culture, & Humanities / Re: Schwartzenegger foolish risk taking
« on: December 27, 2006, 06:12:23 AM »
At least he isn't Real Contact Stickfighting, or should that be why isn't he?

Actually this would be pretty cool if he'd do so.  :wink:

Politics & Religion / Europe's demographic time bomb
« on: December 27, 2006, 05:34:38 AM »
It's questionable if laws are able to revert a social trend. It depends on the causes for the demographic decline. Will another welfare law be able to inspire german women to have more babies or is it just another loop in the downward spiral?

SPIEGEL ONLINE - December 22, 2006, 07:21 PM

By David Gordon Smith

For expectant parents in Germany whose babies are due at the end of the year, this is a tense time. A new law will make a difference of tens of thousands of euros for parents depending whether their babies are born before or after Jan. 1, 2007 -- with the result that many are seeking ways to delay the birth.

The German birth rate is already low enough as it is, but there will be even fewer babies than normal born on this Dec. 31. The chances of a baby being born will fall rapidly as midnight approaches.
That may sound a little strange, given that nature and not humans decides when babies are going to come into the world. Then again, new laws can have surprising effects on nature.

Parents of babies born in Germany on or after Jan. 1 will benefit from generous new federal family subsidies. Whether little Hans is born at 11.59 p.m. on December 31 or 00:01 a.m. on January 1 could make a difference of tens of thousands of euros to the happy (or not so happy) parents.

"From Christmas onwards, I will be standing on my head," expecting mother Antje Grimm (not her real name) told the German news agency DDP. Grimm is one of many parents swapping tips on keeping Junior inside long enough to see in the New Year and cash in on the family subsidies bonanza.

Under the new Elterngeld, or "parents money" law, parents who stay home to look after the new-born child will receive 67 percent of their last net income tax-free, or up to €1,800 ($2,380) a month, for the first 12, or in some cases 14, months after the birth. The already affluent, in particular, will be significantly better off. Currently, parents whose annual net income lies below a certain level -- €30,000 ($39,600) per couple -- can choose between up to 24 monthly payments of up to €300 or 12 monthly payments of up to €450.

Critics have noted that while the subsidies will be a boon for many families, they will also put the unemployed at a disadvantage for having children. Under the new scheme, the jobless may only get €300 a month for up to 14 months.

Demographic time bomb

But the motivation behind the plan to get Germans reproducing is based on sheer pragmatism: The German birth rate has fallen to an average of 1.3 children per woman -- far lower than the 2.1 child per family replacement rate needed in industrialized countries. The Federal Statistical Office has ominously forecasted a drop in the population from today's 82 million people to just 69 million by 2050 -- a decline it warned "cannot be halted."

That kind of demographic implosion would spell disaster for the country's creaking pension system, which is based on a so-called "contract between the generations." Under the scheme, contributions from the current working population finance pension payments for those who have already retired. "With fewer people paying into the system, it comes up against its limits," explained Hanno Schaifer, a spokesman for the Federal Ministry for the Family. The shrinking population could also result in a shortage of skilled workers and lack of innovation, he says.

German lawmakers hope the legislation can help reverse that trend. "The aim of the law is to support the family and make it easier for parents to afford to have children," said Schaifer. He emphasizes that Elterngeld by itself is not enough to ensure that Germans will have more kids. "It's part of an overall plan that includes other measures, such as improving child care and providing tax breaks for child care," he says.

Practical tips for keeping Junior inside

Though the law may help in the long-run, it has expectant mothers in their last days of pregancy feeling a bit anxious. In recent weeks, soon-to-be parents have inundated doctors, midwives and the Internet for advice on how to prolong pregnancy to ensure their ability to cash in.

"A number of parents have asked us if it is possible to delay the birth without harming the child," said Dr. Christian Albring, president of Germany's Professional Association of Gynecologists. "But we as gynecologists have said that's not an option, from both a medical and ethical perspective. Doctors across Germany are going to refuse to carry out such nonsense."

Andrea Bolz, managing director of the German Association of Freelance Midwives agreed. "We say you cannot delay a birth, which is a natural event. We argue very strongly that you should not intervene unless the health of the mother or baby is in danger. None of us would interfere with a birth just because of some cut-off date."

But Albring offers some more practical advice. "It's good for the woman to have peace and quiet if she doesn't want to go into labor ahead of schedule," he said. " So she shouldn't be afraid of the birth, and she should keep calm over Christmas, which is obviously a time when there's a lot going on."

Other, ahem, distractions should also be avoided. Couples should avoid sexual intercourse near the due date if they do not want an early baby, Albring advised. He explained that a substance called prostaglandin is applied to the cervix by doctors to bring on labor if a baby is overdue. The compound is also found in sperm, meaning that sex in the late stages of pregnancy can also trigger an early birth. "If you don't want the baby to come early, then you have to avoid that kind of thing," Albring explained.

Albring suggests other no-go zones in order to prevent the danger of inadvertently bringing on the birth. "Sometimes when people are having sexual intercourse or enjoying foreplay, they kiss each other, or kiss nipples or the stomach and so on," he explained. "All of this can induce labor."

And even seemingly innocuous pre-birth preparations could lead to a loss of Elterngeld. "Some women give themselves nipple massages or rub a rough sea-salt sponge over the nipples to prepare them for breastfeeding," Albring explained. "The idea is to make them harder and more resistant so they do not get sore when the baby sucks on them." This too, should be avoided, he said.

Happy New Year

But if Mohammed won't go to the mountain, then perhaps the mountain will come to Mohammed. After all, what ultimately counts for the bureaucrats is the time on the birth certificate. But Albring is adamant that gynecologists will not be tempted to add a few minutes to birth times to push baby into the financially lucrative future. "I don't believe doctors will falsify the time," he said. "We are trained to record the birth of a child accurate to the minute." Besides, witnesses are also included in birth records and all could be prosecuted if caught.

But what if the birth took place at home, which is the case for around 2 percent of births in Germany? "Theoretically it is imaginable," he admitted. "But home births have far more risks than hospital births. I don't believe a mother would take that risk just to qualify for the new payments."

Andrea Bolz of the German Association of Freelance Midwives is confident that midwives would not be tempted to stretch the truth. "I assume that midwives will carry out their work correctly, irrespective of whether some kind of cut-off date is pending or not," she said with conviction.

Regardless whether expectant parents have their child on Dec. 31 or Jan. 1, Albring for one thinks the new law will lead to more people having children. "I think it's a good start to make having children more palatable to people," he said. "The average age of a German woman having her first baby is 30. People want financial security. They want to get their career going, build a house or buy a flat, and then have a baby. When people realize that the support from the state has gotten a lot better, I can imagine that will lead to women wanting to have babies earlier, and more often."

Politics & Religion / Fun stuff
« on: December 26, 2006, 08:43:17 AM »
Can politics be funny? Of course!

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad owned:

Politics & Religion / Re: Horn of Africa (Somali, Ehtiopia and)
« on: December 26, 2006, 08:34:30 AM »
Interesting development indeed. What a fascinating twist of history, considering that Christianity is strong in Ethiopia. This conflict may become very important for the geopolitical situation. A victory against the radical Muslims on this battlefield could be very important for East-Africa, just as a loss would be devastating. As written in the article, it is important to keep AQ from installing there longterm. The call of the SICC for support of the global jihad must remain useless. An Ethiopia-Eritrea war could ruin all the efforts.

Politics & Religion / Re: 'America Alone'
« on: December 19, 2006, 06:29:19 AM »
Received the book a short while ago, already 3/4 through. Good reading. Already found a lot of stuff to agree on, but also some I critisize. Will give review shortly as soon as christmas holly (maybe new years eve) passed.

Politics & Religion / Re: Islam in Europe
« on: December 08, 2006, 10:23:36 AM »
Here it is:

SPIEGEL ONLINE - December 8, 2006, 06:32 PM

Insults Against Jews on the Rise

By Björn Hengst and Jan Friedmann
Right-wing adolescents and young Muslims are displaying levels of anti-Semitism that were long considered unthinkable in Germany. At many German schools, the word "Jew" is becoming an insult again. German politicians don't seem to know how to respond.

The Jewish High School in Berlin's central Mitte district resembles a high-security ward. Those who want to access the imposing old building on Grosse Hamburger Strasse have to pass through a meticulous security check. The building is surrounded by a fence several meters high and video cameras register every move. Policemen stand guard in front of the building.
"We're no ghetto," school director Barbara Wittig clarifies. "We offer those children protection who have to fear discrimination at other schools," she adds. And such cases have increased dramatically in the past two years. "I always though Jews were integrated into German society," says Wittig. "I would never have thought it possible for anti-Semitism to express itself as virulently as it has recently."

As of this week, Wittig's students have included two girls who previously attended the public, non-confessional Lina-Morgenstern High School in Berlin's Kreuzberg neighborhood. Their woes attracted considerable public attention. For months, one of the two girls, who is 14 years old, suffered anti-Semitic insults from adolescents with an Arab background. They also beat her and spat on her. Walking to school became like running the gauntlet for her. Her tormentors would hide in wait for her and chase her through the streets. In the end the girl had to be given police protection on her way to school.

Anti-Semitism on the rise

These events in Kreuzberg represent an especially drastic example, but they're not the exception. Berlin's state parliament lists 62 reported cases under the category "(right-wing) extremism" in its study "Indicators of Violence at Berlin's Schools, 2004/2005." That's a steep increase in comparison with the previous year, when only 39 cases were registered. The category "(right-wing) extremism" includes "anti-Semitic, racist / xenophobic and right-wing extremist remarks" by children and adolescents, in addition to remarks that "incite racial hatred or express fundamentalist / Islamist fundamentalist views."

One high school student in Berlin's Steglitz-Zehlendorf district said in class: "All Jews must be gassed." Students in the Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg district locked another student inside the chemistry lab and said: "Now we'll turn on the gas." A non-German child at an elementary school in Treptow-Köpenick insulted his teacher by calling her a "Jew," a "witch" and a "sea cow." When a teaching aid in Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg tried to settle an argument between students, he was told: "Piss off, Jew!"

And the surge of anti-Semitism seems to be growing. In November, Berlin's public authorities had already registered more cases of anti-Semitism than during the entire previous year. A recent study by the European Monitoring Center on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) also criticized cases of anti-Semitism, racism and right-wing extremism at German schools.

Right-wing extremists take up Nazi slogans

This week, in the town of Grimmen in West Pomerania, right-wing adolescents mobilized against an exhibition on Anne Frank, disparaging her diary as a forgery. In October, several adolescents in Parey, a town in Germany's Saxony-Anhalt region, forced their 16-year-old classmate to walk across the school yard wearing a large sign during lunch break. The sign read: "In this town I'm the biggest swine / Because of the Jewish friends of mine." It's a phrase from the Nazi era, used to humiliate people with Jewish friends.

A teacher intervened, took the sign away and called the police. The students responsible for the incident, who are aged between 14 and 16, are under criminal investigation. The charges are incitement of racial hatred, coercion and defamation. One of the students is also accused of assault.

Berlin's Jewish community has already issued warnings about "a new dimension of anti-Semitism." Jewish children increasingly face the hatred of Muslim adolescents in addition to aggression from right-wing extremists. The Jewish community advises parents to send their children to Jewish schools in case of conflicts, pointing out that there they will at least be safe.
Skullcaps hidden out of fear

But the protected zone ends outside the school walls. A school class from the Jewish High School was exposed to massive anti-Semitic insults by another Berlin school class while riding the subway. Religious Jewish adolescents hide their skullcaps under a hat whenever they venture onto the street.

The incidents prompted Peter Trapp, a member of the Christian Democrat Party (CDU) in Berlin's parliament, to submit a formal query: Trapp wants to know how many such incidents have occurred recently. He also wants to know how many of those incidents can be attributed to "the right-wing extremist camp" and how many can be traced to adolescents "of non-German origin." Trapp has yet to receive a reply -- indeed, the CDU complains that it is taking unusually long.

And yet school director Wittig insists that politicians are very much making an effort to respond to the problem. It's just that she rarely gets through to them with her projects and appeals, she says. Wittig also complains that many Arab adolescents are so pig-headed it's hard to get through to them. "And the teachers allow their students to tell Jewish jokes," she adds.

"Jew" -- a popular insult

"Students are increasingly using the word 'Jew' in a pejorative sense. It's climbed up a long way on the ranking of popular insults," reports Peter Wagenknecht from the Kreuzberg-based project "Educational Building Blocks Against Anti-Semitism." Wagenknecht and his associates educate adolescents about anti-Semitism in specially organized workshops and classroom talks. The project still receives financial support from the German government.

But not everyone who uses the word "Jew" as an insult is automatically an anti-Semite, Wagenknecht says. Many people just act thoughtlessly, in his view. "Many students no longer have a sense of how charged the word 'Jew' is when it's used as an insult. They just want to break a taboo." Wagenknecht points out that some students similarly use the word "victim" as an insult intended to stigmatize someone as weak.

When he started to work with young people during the early 1990s, anti-Semitism wasn't a problem, Wagenknecht explains. He traces much of today's anti-Semitism to two sources: Students from Arab or Turkish families have been politicized by the conflict in the Middle East such that their "anti-Israeli" attitude sometimes crosses over into open anti-Semitism. German adolescents with extreme right-wing tendencies, on the other hand, have often been exposed to right-wing ideology and hence dispose of a correspondingly distorted knowledge about Jews and Jewish culture.

Wagenknecht worries that more and more Jewish students are too afraid to openly stand up to their background: "They don't want to present themselves as Jewish. In such cases, the class often doesn't know about their background, and the teachers keep mum." Wagenknecht adds that the students are often acting on advice from their parents, who want to spare their children conflicts and exposure to aggressive behavior.

School director Wittig says: "We're now the only school in Berlin where Jewish children can stand up to their identity. Elsewhere, most of them have to adapt to the majority."

Politics & Religion / Re: Islam in Europe
« on: December 07, 2006, 11:59:10 AM »
There's an article in the Spiegel about Jewish pupils being hunted down by both, Nazis and Muslims in Germany. I grind my teeth about news like that. I'm furious. I'm waiting for it to appear in the english version. Maybe I have to change my standpoint...

Politics & Religion / Re: 'America Alone'
« on: December 04, 2006, 03:10:13 PM »
Interestingly the picture you have of Europe and what I expierence "on the ground" differ extremely.

Or have I alread become a muslim but don't know it yet?  :-D

Politics & Religion / Re: 'America Alone'
« on: December 04, 2006, 03:05:59 PM »
Heya TB, welcome aboard!

Henryk M. Broder

Henryk M. Broder would be the living example opposing the theory that Europe would be unaware of its "fate" (when reading your comments here you could get the impression that Europe is already islamized). I highly respect Broder, he works with the Spiegel, my favourite magazine of which you often find excerpts here. Broder is very critical and loud - thats also good. But he belongs to a generation that has grown up in a "pure" Germany without any immigrants. Of course the world he has grown up has already gone - and its good that its gone. Its the old Germany where former nazi-party members still had control of society. He has a written a very good book but like Bat Ye'or, he's sitting at the sideline gloating, cheering and making jokes while Europe is going down instead of trying to find solutions.

Welfare state

In the Scandinavian countries the welfare state is up and running just fine. The welfare state itself doesn't seem to be a problem, its how you manage it.

In most of your posts I often find comments and opinions about France and conclusions drawn about that country taken to the situation in Europe all together. France has homemade problems, other countries have theirs. France can't be equated with the whole of Europe.

**A disturbing view of Russia's future as well.**

Russia has a hardcore neo-nationalistic anti-whatever movement. You'd rather see gulags filled with muslims again than a islamized russia (not much better).

Interestingly the picture you have of Europe and what I expierence "on the ground" differ extremely.

Politics & Religion / Re: Afghanistan-Pakistan
« on: December 01, 2006, 06:06:03 AM »
**I wish someone would explain to them that "jihad" is an internal struggle against sin.**

I read an interesting article just recently about the situation in Afghanistan. There was a quite well-stated comment from an Afghan, saying that the Taliban are only muslims because its the only thing in their miserable life that promises them glory in death - they have nothing else but war. Their funding by drugs is in islamic terms forbidden, it's dirty money . Therefore there are many radical muslims, even Shiites in Iraq and Pakistan, which even though being radical, consider the Taliban to be unworthy of Islam. Interesting notion.

Politics & Religion / Re: Islam in Europe
« on: November 30, 2006, 09:29:05 AM »
Having said that, there have been sufi jihads in history as well.

Which ones?

Politics & Religion / Re: Islam in Europe
« on: November 30, 2006, 08:46:38 AM »
Today I had an interesting talk with a Turk. I asked him about the differences between Sunnites, Shiites and Wahabits. He himself is a Sunnite which also has four distinctions. He isn't someone who would be very talkative, but his comments were very much on point. For him the Shiites are simply wrong when claiming Ali to be descendant of Mohammed. And when I asked about Wahabits he just said; "Saudis are Wahabits, aren't they? Well, they're just utterly stupid." I didn't ask him any further because he started to get upset about Shiites and Wahabits. Once more a personal affirmation for how different the muslims here in Europe are.

I fear political correctness will be the death of them.

I fear you don't know the Brits, because 'political correctness' and 'britishness' are two extremes.

Politics & Religion / Re: Islam in Europe
« on: November 29, 2006, 10:21:08 AM »
The British have centuries of expierence with their Empire of how to handle foreign folks. In the commonwealth the British have learned a lot how to appease its population and still keep it under their strict rule. Sure, their Empire is no more, but in Iraq and Afghanistan the British have clearly shown just how well they get along with other cultures and still be a hard bite.

I have a profound trust, especially in the Brits (in opposition to the French), that they know what they're doing and can handle some sharia-wannabe-courts.

Politics & Religion / Re: Islam in Europe
« on: November 29, 2006, 08:39:37 AM »
Indeed very interesting. I think the British have larger problem than they'd like to admit. Again, in Britain the Pakistani muslims are very strong, but they're not found anywhere else in such larger numbers. Still, sharia courts will not have any importance upon British civil law ever and I trust the British stubborness to never allow this.

Politics & Religion / Re: Iran
« on: November 29, 2006, 07:33:15 AM »
Political news aside. This is about an Iranian TV star who is famous there for her faith and loyality to the mullahs. Now it turned out that a porn movie of her is a bestseller in the streets, with about 100.000 copies sold. The Iranians have a love for porn?,1518,451449,00.html

Politics & Religion / Re: Islam in Europe
« on: November 29, 2006, 07:20:11 AM »
Europe's quiet integration

Zachary Shore
International Herald Tribune
Lately European leaders seem seized by acute Islamophobia. First President Jacques Chirac perceived a threat to French identity posed by schoolgirls decked in head scarves. Then Prime Minister Tony Blair of Britain spoke of outlawing the veil from public view. Now, after calling for a nationwide burka ban, Christian Democrats in the Netherlands have won the most seats in Parliament.

Most Western European nations are tightening their immigration laws while fretting over free speech in cartoons, plays and print. All the while, right-wing xenophobic parties are on the rise across the Continent. One year after riots set French housing projects ablaze, Europe appears to be shifting sharply to the right.

Just below the news media's radar screens, however, a countertrend is under way, which promises a kinder, gentler and potentially more successful approach to Europe's Muslim quandary.

While right-leaning ministers at the national level are talking tough to Muslims, progressive officials and private citizens at local levels are spearheading innovative programs to aid Muslim integration.

In Berlin, Ren?e Abul-Ella runs Al- Dar (The Home), an organization dedicated to helping Arabic women and their families integrate into German society. Al-Dar provides language, typing and computer training to Muslim women and counsels them on issues they cannot discuss in most contexts. Abul- Ella told me that nearly every family she knows has had some incidence of domestic violence.

Al-Dar works with fathers, too, some of whom have prevented their daughters from attending school. "We don't make the people who come to us feel ashamed about their culture," Abul-Ella said. "Instead, we show them that what is appropriate in one country may not be appropriate in another.

At the other end of Germany, Michael Blume is at work in Stuttgart pushing through a series of radical policy shifts in the state of Baden-W?rttemberg. Blume had not even finished his doctoral thesis on comparative religion when he received a call from the state's minister-president. It was just after the 9/11 attacks, and the minister-president was repeatedly being asked about his government's policies toward Muslims, who comprise 5.7 percent of Baden- W?rttemberg's population, and whose numbers are swelling fast. He had no policies, and there was no one on his staff to handle it.

Having heard about Blume's provocative research, the minister-president invited the young Ph.D. student to tea, and in the course of their discussion asked Blume to join his staff. Since then, Blume has initiated a pilot program in 12 public schools serving large concentrations of Muslim children. With the schoolteachers' and parents' consent, these schools now offer classes in Islam as well as the usual courses on Christianity. Religion has always been taught in German schools, but the study of Islam had never been part of the curriculum. The aim is to encourage a sense of Muslim inclusion within German society and discourage the all-too- common development of a parallel society existing outside the mainstream.

Further west, the French city of Strasbourg is also experimenting with new integration strategies. Here sits the European Parliament, with its ornate marble stairways and plush voting chambers, and the Council of Europe, devoted to ensuring human rights and social cohesion throughout the continent. But travel just a few minutes to the other side of Strasbourg, to the neighborhood of Neuhof, and you will see dilapidated housing, shattered windows and crumbled streets.

Drugs have plagued the neighborhood, but the city is attempting to revitalize it, not just by constructing decent housing. Outside the Ecole Maternelle Reuss, scores of immigrant children play tag with all the boisterous energy you would find in any playground. Behind the playground, a more serious course is under way inside a prefab concrete two-room structure where the mothers are learning French. Many came from Bangladesh, Turkey, Morocco or Algeria with little education. All say they are grateful to learn the language, and their courses are paid for by the city if they cannot afford to pay themselves.

These are just a few of Europe's smart steps toward Muslim integration. There are many others. In Berlin, the Aziz Nesin Europa elementary school is completely bilingual. Half of all courses are taught in German; the other half in Turkish. Most policy makers insist that only by mastering European languages can immigrants and their children prosper. The Aziz Nesin school is proving that early bilingual education enhances cognitive ability, fosters curiosity about other cultures, and may even improve academic performance. And the school is not just for Turkish children. It is mixed between Turkish-German and German kids, fostering bonds between cultures at a very early age.

Tough talk and burka bans may win votes at the national level, but municipal governments cannot afford to let their Muslim residents remain closed off from the community and open to extremism. If any of the progressive local projects succeed, they will eventually be adopted nationwide. Europe's leaders have no other choice. If they keep fiddling with the politics of exclusion, Paris will again be burning.

Politics & Religion / Re: European matters
« on: November 29, 2006, 07:19:01 AM »

Politics & Religion / Re: European matters
« on: November 28, 2006, 12:29:06 PM »
How neo-nationalism can look like in Germany:

Politics & Religion / Re: Islam in Europe
« on: November 28, 2006, 12:27:48 PM »
Once I read Peters I couldn't quite agree with him (don't remember the topic), but now he has my sympathies...  :-D

Politics & Religion / Re: 'America Alone'
« on: November 27, 2006, 06:55:48 AM »
Basically I agree with you.

Wait until I read 'America Alone', I think than we'll have more to disagree upon again...   :-)

Politics & Religion / Re: 'America Alone'
« on: November 27, 2006, 05:44:24 AM »
The same laws should apply to jihadist groups.

Well, that is in effect. Its either in this thread or 'Islam in Europe' where it is written that Germany already expelled several preachers.

What is German? Mohammad Atta spoke, read, dressed and acted German. What about people like him?

What about those people in the second generation who already have a German passport and identity, but are caught between their cultural heritage and a society which doesn't give them a chance for integration?

Politics & Religion / Re: Islam in Europe
« on: November 27, 2006, 04:19:21 AM »
I think there is a massive body of evidence to correlate violence to islam.

Unfortunately yes, I have to agree. Elias Canetti, one my favourite authors, considered Islam to be a religion of war.

Politics & Religion / Re: 'America Alone'
« on: November 27, 2006, 04:13:17 AM »
How would you measure 'not complying'?

Politics & Religion / Re: 'America Alone'
« on: November 27, 2006, 03:59:05 AM »
There is a difference between patriotism and malignant nationalism.

Sure there is, you don't have to tell me, go and tell the Germans. Nationalism and Anti-Semitism is on the rise again. 

I think the distinction is lost in europe's politics.

It's lost in german politics, not in the whole of Europe.

Basically you suggest to deport those who do not comply?

Politics & Religion / Re: Islam in Europe
« on: November 27, 2006, 03:01:39 AM »
You don't have the "victim" status you claim is what is fueling the jihad with middle eastern, south asian, african ethnicities that face discrimination in europe.

This is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that we have to beware of generalizations and that we have to look for the causes to seek Jihad within the muslim population differently within the different groups.

Turks and Arabs hate each other. The French muslims tend to seek radical ideals mainly due their discrimination (they are french!), while for example the Pakistani immigrants of London certainly carry the idea of Jihad from their motherland.

The muslims in Europe are not one big corps and far from being ever united. That also is their weakness which we have to use.

Politics & Religion / Re: Islam in Europe
« on: November 27, 2006, 02:30:50 AM »
Why are there youngsters packing a buchload of guns and going into their high school on a rampage?

Hard to say. I guess its many components playing together;
  • lack of cultural identity
  • self hatred
  • feeling of exclusion (from society, friends, family)
  • suicical tendencies
  • depression

I'd say these convert jihadist are an exception and no rule.

What do you think?

Politics & Religion / Re: Afghanistan-Pakistan
« on: November 26, 2006, 12:15:49 PM »
SPIEGEL ONLINE - November 24, 2006, 05:40 PM

Headquarters of the Taliban

By Susanne Koelbl
The strongholds of the Taliban lie in the border region between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

To understand the war in Afghanistan, one must go to Pakistan. There, in Quetta, the leaders of the Taliban find safe harbor. Afghan President Hamid Karzai claims Taliban leader Mullah Omar is living there.
Quetta is located in western Pakistan. It is the capital of Balochistan, the largest and poorest of the Pakistani provinces. Somewhat like a lunar outpost, the 800,000-resident city is situated at an altitude of nearly 1,700 meters between the sand-brown peaks of Chiltan, Takatoo, Mordar and Zarghun. Quetta originally means "fort," and it has always been just that: a fortress, where opposing forces are battling for regional hegemony.

Quetta is considered the center of terror and resistance against the Americans and their allies -- the "occupiers" of Afghanistan. In the backrooms of radical parties and in the white-washed mosques whose towers spiral decoratively skywards, the elite of the holy warriors meet regularly to organize their comeback. Right out in the open streets -- between the market stalls with pomegranates and dates, the currency exchanges and the vats where meat and beans steam on open fires -- the Taliban recruit the holy warriors who will blow themselves up as suicide bombers in Afghanistan.

Quetta is also home to the "Command and Staff College," the elite school of the Pakistani military and the headquarters of the Frontier Corps of Balochistan with some 40,000 men. Both embody the power of the Pakistani General President Pervez Musharraf, America's most important regional ally in the war on terror.

What may seem like a contradiction -- the co-existence of extremists with the Pakistani government in the same place -- is perhaps best explained by a visit to the Shaldara Koran School in the Pashtunabad slum. Roughly 700 children of penniless parents receive a free religious education here, most of the time by memorizing the Koran in didactic lessons. Western intelligence services consider the madrassa to be one of the secret headquarters of the Taliban. Indeed, school director Maulana Noor Mohammed openly supports the jihad in Afghanistan.

His office is situated along a dusty downtown alley, a room in a narrow courtyard. The Sharia teacher is sitting bare-footed and cross-legged on a floor pillow; he is wearing white harem pants and a white shirt, his turban is as white as his long beard. For over 30 years, Noor Mohammed has been in the business of holy war. He wants to free Afghanistan of the "infidels" and erect a theocracy there. Then the movement will expand to neighboring countries "and finally to the whole world."

A servant brings a tin pitcher with green tea and sets down small porcelain bowls on the worn velour rug. An old-fashioned landline telephone sits on the floor. Men sneak in silently, they kiss Noor Mohammed's hands.

Islamic agitators like Maulana Noor Mohammed are not prosecuted in Quetta, as the Afghan and American governments have been demanding for months. On the contrary: He is a respected member of the community. As the Balochistani leader of the radical Islamic party Jamiat-Ulema-e-Islam he belongs to a politically influential alliance of Islamists, the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA). When necessary, the MMA mobilizes people on the street against the government and threatens to destabilize the country, which is, after all, a nuclear power.
Mullah Dadullah, 40, the military head of the Taliban in southern Afghanistan was a former student of Noor Mohammed. He lost a leg in the war and organizes terrorist attacks. He deals with "traitors" who cooperate with the Afghan government by chopping off their heads, live on camera. "I am proud of him," says Noor Mohammed.

Under massive pressure from the United States, President Musharraf is now taking action against the Taliban. He ordered the bombing of a Koran school -- allegedly a "terror camp with terrorist activities" and many foreigners -- in the village Chingai on the Afghan border in the tribal region of Bajaur. Among the 80-plus casualties was the school's director, Maulana Liaqatullah Hussain, without a doubt a supporter of the extremists. But the victims also included students and innocent civilians.

After that, 15,000 people protested against Musharraf and the meddling of the US in their affairs, while leading Islamists swore revenge. Since then, the atmosphere in the tribal area has been fervid. "Now more than ever, Bajaur could become Talibanized, as could other tribal areas," says a lawyer who traveled through the region to investigate the incident with colleagues.

Not long ago, the British commander of NATO forces in Afghanistan, David Richards, paid a visit to President Musharraf in Islamabad. Previously, secret intelligence had trickled through: Videos and satellite images show training camps in Pakistan and document how terrorists, with the help of Pakistani security officials, slip through the border into Afghanistan unhindered. Recently imprisoned Taliban fighters testified that they were trained by agents of the Pakistani secret service Inter-Services Intelligence. The message was that the Pakistani president has to prove which side he supports.
Western allies have often demanded this of Musharraf, not always successfully. And the Pakistani president probably has no other choice but to play a double game. If he were to align himself fully with one side -- say, with the West -- then the jihadists could turn against him, plunging Pakistan into a wave of terror. This would also not be in the interest of the West.

Politics & Religion / Re: Islam in Europe
« on: November 26, 2006, 10:55:44 AM »
IMHO the Eurabia theory cannot simply be wished away-- there does seem to be rational basis for it.

I do not wish it away. But I also don't have the time to write a book to disproof its theories.

Politics & Religion / Re: Islam in Europe
« on: November 26, 2006, 09:34:29 AM »
What a great program!

Politics & Religion / Re: Islam in Europe
« on: November 26, 2006, 08:04:16 AM »
In my opinion the Eurabia theory is detriment to our efforts in Europe to integrate the muslims. Also if everything Europe does to take a step to approach our muslim population at the very instant is considered to be dhimmitude, this is very unproductive.? IMO the Eurabia theory is anti-european and counter-productive to our efforts. Bat Ye'or as educated as she may be (she's a studied archeologist, maybe she should keep away from politics), is fueled by hatred against muslims. Unfortunately she has made quite an impact in the US with her awkard theorem, while she remains mostly unknown in Europe.

If I have my facts right, unemployment rates in countries such as France and Germany are over 10%, more than double that of the US.

Yes, they are. Many countries in Europe have economic problems. See my WW for Wealth thread.

Conversely, here in the US where job creation is much higher and unemployment much lower, Muslims are much better integrated.? Coincidence?? I suspect not.

Partly yes, sure. In most parts of Europe muslims are discriminated and not welcome - simply because they're foreigners. Therefore they're not being integrated into society. In France muslims as studied as they may be, get no job, French are preferred.? The Eurabia theorem fuels the hatred against muslims. So we create our own little pond of sharks for radicals to fish in. Therefore I oppose the Eurabia theory and I warn that we have to look out for those muslims who want to integrate as they will give a good signal for others to follow. Considering the muslim population in Europe to be part of a bigger plan to seize Europe is not only paranoid, it's useless. It only adds up to the problem.

Politics & Religion / Re: Islam in Europe
« on: November 26, 2006, 06:01:51 AM »
Well, that doesn't really contradict to what I'm saying...

Quoted from one of your articles:

The phenomenon is not confined to Europe.

Politics & Religion / Re: 'America Alone'
« on: November 26, 2006, 05:58:54 AM »
G.M., I think you're making some very valuable points there.

1.) Much stricter immigration laws, rigorously enforced.

With the advent of rightwing parties and neo-nationalist ideas rising, this will certainly happen in Europe. While US borders are pretty easy to control, European borders are not. Also Europe will have to give up its humanitarian mission to offer asylum to those being prosecuted in another country - basically 'Fortress Europe' coming true.

Even though I certainly support stricter immigration laws, I'd hate to see a xenophobic, anti-semitic and anti-humanitarian 'Fortress Europe.'

2.) It's reasonable to not fund jihadist clerics who preach hatred in the mosques.

Of course it is. But I go with Mig and say as well? "making mosque members accepted members of the community and not marginalizing them." After all religious freedom is one of the columns of western civilization. To answer Crafty's question as how this could look like;
a. Offering religious lessons in school for muslims as there are religious lessons for christians and jews. These have to be held in the country's native tongue by a certified teacher.
b. Also discrimination has to stop. A muslim does not equate a terrorist. It must be more easy for muslims who wish to integrate to get a job and be accepted into society.
c. A mosque has to be public. Its funding has to be laid open. The members list must be open and the preachers must undergo a centralized training by the state before they're being allowed to teach and preach.

3.) If I was moving to Germany, i'd study the language, laws and culture in great detail to make sure i'd be able to function when I arrived.

Yes, good point. A lot of European countries missed this. Now they're trying to make it up by offering language and cultural courses every immigrant has to do and finish with an exam.

4.) Intermarriage is a powerful intergenerational tool of integration.

It is. But;
a. there are few European women who want to marry a muslim
b. many muslim men are getting married (or proposed) at the age of 13 -15.

You can't have a workable nation made up of a "mosaic". It's all about the melting pot. The American experiment is imperfect, but we managed to do a lot with a vast mix of humanity and create what has been a cohesive nation out of it. You can have a nation of different "races"/ethnicities, but there has to be one common language and one loyalty to the nation.

That is true. But the US is the only country to do so and one of its strength is just that. You can't think that your model would work anywhere else, as the melting pot is the fundament of american culture. Europe has always been a mosaic of nations. That is our strength, that we have learned to live together instead of slaughtering each other (it took us 3000 years). We will never assimilate any immigrate, the European model is trying to understand the immigrants culture and see how we meet in the middle so each can keep his culture but still live together. But that requires consensus. A consensus radicals are not willing to make, as do the nationalists.

The "West" has to move past the self destructiveness of "multiculturalism" and the constant self-flagellation of the less savory aspects of the west's collective sins.

True. I agree with you on this point.

G.M., a lot of points you raised now are revolving around the question as we could stop the flow of immigrants to Europe. But how should we handle those Europeans whose believes are muslim, who are already here?

Politics & Religion / Re: Islam in Europe
« on: November 26, 2006, 05:26:34 AM »
**On the whole, the western born/western educated jihadists tend to be from middle class, even upper class socioeconomic backgrounds. So we know they aren't "depraived because they are deprived".**

IMO not quite true. If you would be well educated, studied, and coming from a somewhat secular background and you'd still have to face racial discrimination because being coloured or muslim, then you'd most probably feel even more depraved than someone who comes from a lower social class and is used to being discriminated. Some of these muslims are highly educated but get no job because they're muslim. Of course this discrimination is being fueled by people who think Eurabia is coming. Its a vicious circle in its own - Thomas theorem coming true.

Politics & Religion / Re: European matters
« on: November 26, 2006, 05:19:24 AM »
Sadly enough, anti-semitism is still strong in Europe, especailly among the lower classes and even more so in new EU partner countries like Poland. But there are signs of hope. One development I'm personally very proud of and looking forward to its further development, is the new synagogue, museum and jewish center in Munich:

Jews Celebrate New Munich Synagogue

By MELISSA EDDY 11.09.06, 1:18 PM ET

Nearly 70 years after Adolf Hitler declared Munich's main synagogue an "eyesore" in the center of his power base and personally ordered it torn down, the city's Jews celebrated a return to the heart of the southern German city. On Thursday, the 68th anniversary of Kristallnacht, or the Night of Broken Glass, Torah scrolls were marched through the winding, cobblestone streets of downtown Munich to a newly built synagogue in the heart of the city. Hundreds of onlookers and 1,500 police officers stood by.

Charlotte Knobloch, president of Germany's main Jewish group and a Munich native who survived the night when synagogues and Jewish businesses across Germany were attacked, praised the new synagogue and community center as a statement that Jews survived and are thriving in Munich.

"It has always been my great wish to open the Ohel Jakob synagogue, Munich's new main synagogue, on Nov. 9," Knobloch said, before some 1,200 government and religious officials and others attending the dedication ceremony.

"Because today we can show the entire world that Hitler did not succeed in annihilating us. There are Jews in the former capital of the Nazi movement."

President Horst Koehler and some 1,200 other government and religious representatives were present for the dedication of the Ohel Jakob synagogue.

The completion of the synagogue and its accompanying community center is a milestone for this burgeoning Jewish community of 9,200 members - Germany's second-largest after Berlin's. It not only brings their house of worship, schools and community centers under the same roof, but places them back in the city center, close to the spires of city hall and the landmark Frauenkirche, or Church of Our Lady.

For many, that also means that the buildings are close to the heart of German consciousness.

"There are synagogues that have been rebuilt, synagogues that have been renovated, synagogues that have been reconstructed, but those are totally different from building a center from scratch for a growing Jewish community," said Rabbi Israel Singer of the World Jewish Congress. "That builds hope."

Koehler expressed the hope such a symbol would help make the Jewish community a normal part of German society again.

"The new Jewish Center, to which this synagogue belongs, not only fills a hole left open in the city center since World War II, it also helps to bridge the spiritual and cultural hole ripped open by the expulsion and murder of the Munich Jews," Koehler said.

When the U.S. Army marched into Munich in 1945, only several dozen Jews remained. While the immediate postwar years saw an influx of mostly Eastern European Jews, most of them were fleeing their homes and swiftly moved on to Israel or the United States.

Those who remained and slowly started to rebuild took up residence in the city's only remaining synagogue, located in the backyard of a far-flung neighborhood. Since then, the city has had no visible Jewish buildings.

"It's symbolic for more profound change in terms of the consciousness of the Jewish community which sees itself no longer sitting on packed bags, rather declaring that they are here to stay," said Michael Brenner, a professor of Jewish history at the University of Munich.

The new synagogue, which seats 550, is a cubic structure of travertine stone topped by a glass cube aimed at giving worshippers a view of the heavens. The interior walls are paneled with warm cedar decorated with golden psalms.

Funding for the synagogue, which cost about $72 million, came from the city of Munich, the state of Bavaria and Munich's Jewish community. It stands on St. Jakobs Square, only a few blocks from where the city's original main synagogue stood until its demise in June 1938.

In 2003, authorities thwarted a plot by a group of neo-Nazis to bomb the ceremony to lay the cornerstone for the new synagogue.

Security concerns led Jewish leaders to decide to house a memorial to the 4,000 Munich Jews killed in the Holocaust in an underground tunnel between the synagogue and the community center.

Such fears, say Singer, are behind criticism from some Holocaust survivors who argue a new synagogue should not be built in the city that was home to the Nazi party, where Joseph Goebbels gave the orders for Kristallnacht.

Yet, as the home to what the World Jewish Congress describes as the world's fastest-growing Jewish community, conservatively estimated at more than 100,000, Germany must ensure that the rights of its new immigrants are respected, he said.

"There should be squares in Germany that are secure under the sign of David, not only under the sign of the cross," Singer said.

Copyright 2006 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed

Politics & Religion / Re: 'America Alone'
« on: November 25, 2006, 05:47:11 AM »
No insult taken!  :-)

Let's tackle this discussion from another point of view: Would you have any solution to offer as how Europe should step up against this threat of Eurabia?

Politics & Religion / Re: 'America Alone'
« on: November 24, 2006, 01:31:26 PM »
I'd like to point out to the thread I opened about the World War for Wealth:

All the while the West is engaged in the middle east and in polemic wars against each other, there might be an India and China on the fast lane overtaking both of us...

Politics & Religion / Re: 'America Alone'
« on: November 24, 2006, 01:26:56 PM »
You are free to say what you wish about Jesus or Christianity or Jews and mostly you'll get a collective shrug from their adherents.

Sure, I want to see you doing that in the US bible belt.

As we speak, pacifistic Buddhists are being slaughtered in Asia by muslims to the cry of "Allah Akbar!".

Where is that happening?

They communicate, train and support each other globally.

Sure they do. But not as connected as you may wish. The jihadists not only lead an asymetrical warfare, they're also very asymetrical structured. The jihad nowadays is something you can download from the internet. You can get your fatwah (hope you know what that is), your plans for bombs, your motivational speeches and your violence porn. In terms of military intelligence IMO it would be a grave error to think that there is a larger ultimate network. A splinter cell can be organized and structured without doing any training. Therefore considering the terrorists to be a broad network may make you blind for all the small scale developments. In order to contain a splinter cell in any country, you have to check the security situation specificially and not generally.

The AQ idea has separated from Bin Laden. If you want to see it that way, Bin Laden has been quite successful in lighting the flame for his idea with the attacks on 9/11. Now it doesn't matter anymore if he's alive or not, his jihad is omnipresent - but not omnistructured.

IMO this is making them even more dangerous than a globally well structured and organized jihad.

A steady stream of jihadists with EU passports have been fighting in Iraq.

Well, that stream is coming most of all from Syria, Saudi-Arabia and Iran.

When the children were murdered by the hundreds in Beslan, it wasn't just Chechens shooting belt-fed machine guns and detonating bombs, it was muslims from many different nations taking part in the "jihad".

Wrong. Yes, these terrorists were muslims, but they were all exclusively coming from the nearer surrounding of Beslan. Somehow I don't see the point in this argument.

I feel like it's 1937 or 1938 and i'm pointing out some trends in Germany, Italy and Japan and i'm getting "peace in our time" in response.

Well, if you see it that way then IMO you're completely diminishing what happened in the time between 1933 - 1939.

"Ya know, the Nazis aren't what most Germans are like and those Japanese pilots have hijacked the peaceful Japanese culture."

Look, don't take me for being stupid.

Politics & Religion / Re: European matters
« on: November 24, 2006, 01:06:17 PM »
I think its noteworthy that many Scandinavians actually found it to be rather funny that muslim rioters got killed by the mob in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Egpyt.... I think the muslims will bite their teeth out when they try to convert Scandinavia to Scandiarabia...  :wink:

Politics & Religion / Re: Iran
« on: November 24, 2006, 12:47:56 PM »
Russia has begun deliveries of the Tor-M1 air defence rocket system to Iran, Russian news agencies quoted military industry sources as saying, in the latest sign of a Russian-US rift over Iran.

Those bastards!

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