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71
Politics & Religion / newsmax on RFK
« Last post by ccp on March 25, 2024, 03:54:37 PM »
as I posted a week or two ago

he may well be able to team up with the Libertarian  Party and thus the LEFT will NOT be able to shut him down

the pricks

good for him.

https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/robert-f-kennedy-jr-libertarian-party-election/2024/03/25/id/1158500/

both he and Libertarian party could benefit.

72
Politics & Religion / Re: Media, Ministry of Truth Issues
« Last post by ccp on March 25, 2024, 03:51:25 PM »
bottom line

the LEFT does not want us to have any voice
shut us down 100%

and nothing we say should be allowed to be aired

and it is only what they want people to hear

We are seeing a total blanket frenzy of shutting us down
everyway they can.

Everything we say is lies conspiracies and a threat to Democracy

I never dreamed I would see this in the US
boy was I wrong

73
Politics & Religion / A friend writes
« Last post by Crafty_Dog on March 25, 2024, 03:48:52 PM »
Shared with permission:

This issue is far more important than people realize. I spent a lot of time in Africa, from Gabon and Cote d-Ivoire all the way around the bottom of the continent to Mozambique - 7 countries in all with substantial time and work in each - and the importance of Africa in global politics and defense strategy is impossible to overstate. It would give most people serious pause to learn how much of what we would call malign action and malign influence by actors like Russia, China, and North Korea take place quietly and effectively in hideouts like South Africa. It would likewise take your breath away to learn just how similar most of those Embassies are to mob rackets, and how much illicit money is flowing through them back to sanctioned countries. Ceding Africa to our enemies, even in small ways, blinds and cripples us. Doing it the way Biden has done it qualifies as malfeasance.

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Politics & Religion / GPF: What America's departure from Niger means
« Last post by Crafty_Dog on March 25, 2024, 03:47:39 PM »
March 25, 2024
View On Website
Open as PDF

What Washington’s Departure From Niger Means
There is now security vacuum that Riyadh and Moscow are looking to exploit.
By: Ronan Wordsworth

The U.S. responded to the Sahel’s string of military coups, especially in Niger, fairly pragmatically. Washington initially refused to call events in Niamey a coup, since doing so would have required cuts to military and financial assistance, and seemed willing to engage the new regime led by Gen. Abdourahamane Tchiani. In return, Washington was able to maintain important military bases in the country.

But it seems Niger has had a change of heart. Over the weekend of March 16, the leadership in Niamey essentially ignored a U.S. delegation scheduled to meet with the ruling party, and more important, it announced that it would immediately terminate its military contract with Washington. Tellingly, a junta spokesman said that “Niger regrets the intention of the American delegation to deny the sovereign Nigerien people the right to choose their partners and types of partnerships capable of truly helping them fight against terrorism.” The Pentagon responded by discussing the direct and frank conversations defense officials had had with the Nigeriens about the path their country is on and by expressing concerns over Niger’s growing relationship with Russia and Iran. The episode was an obvious signal of Niger’s shift away from the U.S. and toward new allies.

Niger is part of the wider Sahelian region, which, along with neighbors Mali and Burkina Faso, has been rife with jihadist groups for the better part of a decade. Longstanding, expensive EU and U.S. missions meant to stabilize them have been only marginally successful. The three were also part of the G5 Sahel grouping (along with Mauritania and Chad), which has received huge amounts of counterterrorism and humanitarian assistance. Since 2013, the U.S. has cooperated with whatever government ruled Niger to provide that assistance, culminating in the completion of an air base in Agadez from which Washington’s regional counterterrorism operations were based. The facility has enabled intelligence gathering and logistical support and has helped control illicit smuggling and illegal migration toward Europe.

Over the past three years, military coups in Mali, Burkina Faso and Niger have upended this status quo. The new leaders have spurned traditional allies such as France and, under the premise of restoring order and reclaiming territory lost to Islamist insurgents, have delegated some of their security responsibilities to Russia. Unsurprisingly, Moscow’s influence in these countries has increased dramatically. For Russia, Niger represents another link in a nearly uninterrupted chain of potentially friendly Sahelian states that are also lucrative sources of resource extraction. Several mines in Mali, Burkina Faso, Sudan and Central African Republic have been handed to Africa Corps, which is formerly the Wagner Group’s contingent in Africa and operates under the aegis of the Russian Defense Ministry. Moscow is also courting Chad, which could give Moscow an even larger swath of territorial influence.

Russian Presence in the Sahel

(click to enlarge)

It’s no coincidence that just after the Nigerien junta announced the termination of its military agreement with the U.S., reports surfaced in Russian media of a new Sahelian rail corridor connecting the Central African Republic, Mali and Burkina Faso to Libyan ports via Niger. (The government in Tripoli, which is also cozy with Moscow, recently announced an end to various factional hostilities, providing a potential opening for this kind of agreement.) If the railway ever gets off the ground, it would give Russian mining operations a significant logistical boost in a trade that was already worth billions annually.

Proposed Trans-Saharan Rail Line

(click to enlarge)

For the U.S., the Nigerien government is not yet a lost cause; a Pentagon spokesperson recently told reporters, “We want to see our partnership continue if there is a pathway forward." However, Washington is doubtless assessing contingency plans already, looking at viable alternatives in places like Benin, Ivory Coast, Ghana and Mauritania. Perhaps more important are the rumors that Iran is now buying uranium from Niger, which accounts for 5 percent of global production, and that Saudi Arabia is similarly interested. The U.S. has been continuously warning Iran over its increasing enrichment program, which has seen Tehran create large stockpiles of 60 percent enriched uranium – levels suitable for the rapid production of a nuclear weapon.

Even so, Gen. Tchiani and his Cabinet are likely feeling very confident in their position after the Economic Community of West African States dropped its sanctions and the reopening of the border with Nigeria. Nigerian President Bola Tinubu once threatened military intervention to reinstate Niger’s ousted president, but the threat passed with a whimper, and Nigeria has since reinstated the power supply to Niger, while ECOWAS has shown that it lacks any real teeth as an organization. It’s possible that this, coupled with Russian interest, gave the junta the confidence to act against Washington.

Either way, the long and expensive U.S.-led mission in the country has been dealt a potential death blow. Operating from Agadez isn’t a long-term solution, at least not as long as the current government is in power. Washington is thus looking to shore up its allies in a region that is growing sparser of friendly faces. Russian security forces may help the military junta shore up its position, but don’t expect them to secure the peripheral regions that have become hot beds for Islamic terrorism. (They didn’t in Mali or Burkina Faso.) In the meantime, instability will affect the entire region. It could even spill over into Europe by reopening mass migration routes, and potentially facilitating a resurgence of jihadist groups that have been effectively diminished by U.S. assistance.
75
Politics & Religion / FO
« Last post by Crafty_Dog on March 25, 2024, 03:26:14 PM »


(1) U.S. FALLING BEHIND CHINA IN GREAT POWER COMPETITION: During a House hearing, Rep. Michael McCaul (R-TX) said, “We’re beyond the point of a wake-up call” that foreign adversaries are using U.S. innovation to undermine U.S. national security interests, and the U.S. needs to open new markets to remain competitive in a great power competition.

Arnold & Porter law partner John Bellinger said, “We are not only not at the table but off the field” on deep-sea critical mineral mining, and the U.S. has the most to lose by not ratifying a U.N. treaty on deep-sea mining.

Why It Matters: U.S. officials are increasingly calling out the global reordering from the “unipolar moment” to an era of great power competition. The U.S. is playing catch-up to China, which has significantly expanded its influence into the Western Hemisphere through infrastructure and deep water port investments. The U.S. previously spurned investment in critical mineral mining in resource-rich regions like Africa and Latin America, and the slow development of U.S. mining investments is unlikely to secure critical mineral supply chains and block Chinese access ahead of an expected 2027 conflict. China is also moving to corner the global deep-sea critical mineral mining market, while the U.S. has resisted investing in the sector. – R.C.

(2) NEW BIDEN AIDE A SIGN CHINA TECH WAR ESCALATING: According to senior Biden administration officials, President Biden will appoint Navtej Dhillon and Mike Konczal to the National Economic Council (NEC).

Navtej Dhillon will be appointed as the NEC deputy director to focus on industrial policy and unfair Chinese economic practices.
Why It Matters: The Biden administration has continued to ratchet up its tech trade war with China. Biden appointing Dhillon to the NEC is a sign that the Biden administration will likely escalate the trade war ahead of a conflict with China that U.S. officials expect by 2027. – R.C.
78
Politics & Religion / What would you have Israel do?
« Last post by Crafty_Dog on March 25, 2024, 02:45:44 PM »
Saving this

There seems to be a broad consensus atop the Democratic Party about the war in Gaza, structured around two propositions. First, after the attacks of Oct. 7, Israel has the right to defend itself and defeat Hamas. Second, the way Israel is doing this is “over the top,” in President Biden’s words. The vast numbers of dead and starving children are gut wrenching, the devastation is overwhelming, and it’s hard not to see it all as indiscriminate.

Which leads to an obvious question: If the current Israeli military approach is inhumane, what’s the alternative? Is there a better military strategy Israel can use to defeat Hamas without a civilian blood bath? In recent weeks, I’ve been talking with security and urban warfare experts and others studying Israel’s approach to the conflict and scouring foreign policy and security journals in search of such ideas.

The thorniest reality that comes up is that this war is like few others because the crucial theater is underground. Before the war, Israelis estimated Hamas had dug around 100 miles of tunnels. Hamas leaders claimed they had a much more expansive network, and it turns out they were telling the truth. The current Israeli estimates range from 350 to about 500 miles of tunnels. The tunnel network, according to Israel, is where Hamas lives, holds hostages, stores weapons, builds missiles and moves from place to place. By some Israeli estimates, building these tunnels cost the Gazan people about a billion dollars, which could have gone to building schools and starting companies.

Hamas built many of its most important military and strategic facilities under hospitals, schools and so on. Its server farm, for example, was built under the offices of the U.N. relief agency in Gaza City, according to the Israeli military.

Daphne Richemond-Barak, the author of “Underground Warfare,” writes in Foreign Policy magazine: “Never in the history of tunnel warfare has a defender been able to spend months in such confined spaces. The digging itself, the innovative ways Hamas has made use of the tunnels and the group’s survival underground for this long have been unprecedented.”

In other words, in this war, Hamas is often underground, the Israelis are often aboveground, and Hamas seeks to position civilians directly between them. As Barry Posen, a professor at the security studies program at M.I.T., has written, Hamas’s strategy could be “described as ‘human camouflage’ and more ruthlessly as ‘human ammunition.’” Hamas’s goal is to maximize the number of Palestinians who die and in that way build international pressure until Israel is forced to end the war before Hamas is wiped out. Hamas’s survival depends on support in the court of international opinion and on making this war as bloody as possible for civilians, until Israel relents.

The Israelis have not found an easy way to clear and destroy the tunnels. Currently, Israel Defense Forces units clear the ground around a tunnel entrance and then, Richemond-Barak writes, they send in robots, drones and dogs to detect explosives and enemy combatants. Then units trained in underground warfare pour in. She writes: “It has become clear that Israel cannot possibly detect or map the entirety of Hamas’s tunnel network. For Israel to persuasively declare victory, in my view, it must destroy at least two-thirds of Hamas’s known underground infrastructure.”

This is slow, dangerous and destructive work. Israel rained destruction down on Gaza, especially early in the war. Because very few buildings can withstand gigantic explosions beneath them, this method involves a lot of wreckage, compounding the damage brought by tens of thousands of airstrikes. In part because of the tunnels, Israel has caused more destruction in Gaza than Syria did in Aleppo and more than Russia did in Mariupol, according to an Associated Press analysis.

John Spencer is the chair of urban warfare studies at the Modern War Institute at West Point, served two tours in Iraq and has made two visits to Gaza during the current war to observe operations there. He told me that Israel has done far more to protect civilians than the United States did in Afghanistan and Iraq. Spencer reports that Israel has warned civilians when and where it is about to begin operations and published an online map showing which areas to leave. It has sent out millions of pamphlets, texts and recorded calls warning civilians of coming operations. It has conducted four-hour daily pauses to allow civilians to leave combat areas. It has dropped speakers that blast out instructions about when to leave and where to go. These measures, Spencer told me, have telegraphed where the I.D.F. is going to move next and “have prolonged the war, to be honest.”

The measures are real, but in addition, Israel has cut off power in Gaza, making it hard for Palestinians to gain access to their phones and information and, most important, the evacuation orders published by Israel. Israel has also destroyed a vast majority of Gaza’s cellphone towers and on occasion bombed civilians in so-called safe areas and safe routes. For civilians, the urban battlefield is unbelievably nightmarish. They are caught between a nation enraged by Oct. 7 and using overwhelming and often reckless force and a terrorist group that has structured the battlefield to maximize the number of innocent dead.

So to step back: What do we make of the current Israeli strategy? Judged purely on a tactical level, there’s a strong argument that the I.D.F. has been remarkably effective against Hamas forces. I’ve learned to be suspicious of precise numbers tossed about in this war, but the I.D.F. claims to have killed over 13,000 of the roughly 30,000 Hamas troops. It has disrupted three-quarters of Hamas’s battalions so that they are no longer effective fighting units. It has also killed two of five brigade commanders and 19 of 24 battalion commanders. As of January, U.S. officials estimated that Israel had damaged or made inoperable 20 to 40 percent of the tunnels. Many Israelis believe the aggressive onslaught has begun to restore Israel’s deterrent power. (Readers should know that I have a son who served in the I.D.F. from 2014 to 2016; he’s been back home in the States since then.)

But on a larger political and strategic level, you’d have to conclude that the Israeli strategy has real problems. Global public opinion is moving decisively against Israel. The key shift is in Washington. Historically pro-Israeli Democrats like Biden and Senator Chuck Schumer are now pounding the current Israeli government with criticism. Biden wants Israel to call off its invasion of the final Hamas strongholds in the south. Israel is now risking a rupture with its closest ally and its only reliable friend on the U.N. Security Council. If Israel is going to defend itself from Iran, it needs strong alliances, and Israel is steadily losing those friends. Furthermore, Israeli tactics may be reducing Gaza to an ungovernable hellscape that will require further Israeli occupation and produce more terrorist groups for years.

Hamas’s strategy is pure evil, but it is based on an understanding of how the events on the ground will play out in the political world. The key weakness of the Israeli strategy has always been that it is aimed at defeating Hamas militarily without addressing Palestinian grievances and without paying enough attention to the wider consequences. As the leaders of Hamas watch Washington grow more critical of Jerusalem, they must know their strategy is working.

So we’re back to the original question: Is there a way to defeat Hamas with far fewer civilian deaths? Is there a way to fight the war that won’t leave Israel isolated?

One alternative strategy is that Israel should conduct a much more limited campaign. Fight Hamas, but with less intensity. To some degree, Israel has already made this adjustment. In January, Israel announced it was shifting to a smaller, more surgical strategy; U.S. officials estimated at the time that Israel had reduced the number of Israeli troops in northern Gaza to fewer than half of the 50,000 who were there in December.

The first problem with going further in this direction is that Israel may not be left with enough force to defeat Hamas. Even by Israel’s figures, most Hamas fighters are still out there. Will surgical operations be enough to defeat an enemy of this size? A similar strategy followed by America in Afghanistan doesn’t exactly inspire confidence.

A second problem is that the light footprint approach leaves power vacuums. This allows Hamas units to reconstitute themselves in areas Israel has already taken. As the United States learned in Iraq, if troop levels get too low, the horrors of war turn into the horrors of anarchy.

Another alternative strategy is targeted assassinations. Instead of continuing with a massive invasion, just focus on the Hamas fighters responsible for the Oct. 7 attack, the way Israel took down the terrorists who perpetrated the attack on Israeli Olympians in Munich in 1972.

The difference is that the attack on Israelis at Munich was a small-scale terrorist assault. Oct. 7 was a comprehensive invasion by an opposing army. Trying to assassinate perpetrators of that number would not look all that different from the current military approach. As Raphael Cohen, the director of the strategy and doctrine program at the RAND Corporation, notes: “In practical terms, killing or capturing those responsible for Oct. 7 means either thousands or potentially tens of thousands of airstrikes or raids dispersed throughout the Gaza Strip. Raids conducted on that scale are no longer a limited, targeted operation. It’s a full-blown war.”

Furthermore, Hamas’s fighters are hard to find, even the most notorious leaders. It took a decade for the United States to find Osama bin Laden, and Israel hasn’t had great success with eliminating key Hamas figures. In recent years, Israel tried to kill Mohammed Deif, the commander of Hamas’s military wing, seven times, without success.

The political costs of this kind of strategy might be even worse than the political costs of the current effort. Turkey, a Hamas supporter, has made it especially clear that Israel would pay a very heavy price if it went after Hamas leaders there.

A third alternative is a counterinsurgency strategy, of the kind that the United States used during the surge in Iraq. This is a less intense approach than the kind of massive invasion we’ve seen and would focus on going after insurgent cells and rebuilding the destroyed areas to build trust with the local population. The problem is that this works only after you’ve defeated the old regime and have a new host government you can work with. Israel is still trying to defeat the remaining Hamas battalions in places like Rafah. This kind of counterinsurgency approach would be an amendment to the current Israeli strategy, not a replacement.

Critics of the counterinsurgency approach point out that Gaza is not Iraq. If Israel tried to clear, hold and build new secure communities in classic counterinsurgency fashion, those new communities wouldn’t look like safe zones to the Palestinians. They would look like detention camps. Furthermore, if Israel settles on this strategy, it had better be prepared for a long war. One study of 71 counterinsurgency campaigns found that the median length of those conflicts was 10 years. Finally, the case for a full counterinsurgency approach would be stronger if that strategy had led to American victories in Afghanistan and Iraq, which it did not.

A fourth alternative is that Israel should just stop. It should settle for what it has achieved and not finish the job by invading Rafah and the southern areas of Gaza, or it should send in just small strike teams.

This is now the official Biden position. The national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, has argued that Israel can destroy Hamas in Gaza without a large invasion but “by other means” (which he did not elaborate on). The United States has asked Israel to send a delegation to Washington to discuss alternative Rafah strategies, which is good. The problem is that, first, there seems to be a budding disagreement over how much of Hamas needs to be destroyed to declare victory and, second, the I.D.F. estimates that there are 5,000 to 8,000 Hamas fighters in Rafah. Defeating an army that size would take thousands of airstrikes and raids. If you try to shrink the incursion, the math just doesn’t add up. As an Israeli war cabinet member, Benny Gantz, reportedly told U.S. officials, “Finishing the war without demilitarizing Rafah is like sending in firefighters to put out 80 percent of a fire.”

If this war ends with a large chunk of Hamas in place, it would be a long-term disaster for the region. Victorious, Hamas would dominate whatever government was formed to govern Gaza. Hamas would rebuild its military to continue its efforts to exterminate the Jewish state, delivering on its promise to launch more and more attacks like that of Oct. 7. Israel would have to impose an even more severe blockade than the one that it imposed before, this time to keep out the steel, concrete and other materials that Hamas uses to build tunnels and munitions, but that Gazans would need to rebuild their homes.

If Hamas survives this war intact, it would be harder for the global community to invest in rebuilding Gaza. It would be impossible to begin a peace process. As the veteran Middle East observers Robert Satloff and Dennis Ross wrote in American Purpose, “Any talk of a postwar political process is meaningless without Israel battlefield success: There can be no serious discussion of a two-state solution or any other political objective with Hamas either still governing Gaza or commanding a coherent military force.”

So where are we? I’m left with the tragic conclusion that there is no magical alternative military strategy. As Cohen wrote in Foreign Policy: “If the international community wants Israel to change strategies in Gaza, then it should offer a viable alternative strategy to Israel’s announced goal of destroying Hamas in the strip. And right now, that alternate strategy simply does not exist.”

The lack of viable alternatives leaves me with the further conclusion that Israel must ultimately confront Hamas leaders and forces in Rafah rather than leave it as a Hamas beachhead. For now, a cease-fire may be in the offing in Gaza, which is crucial for the release of more hostages.

Israel can use that time to put in place the humanitarian relief plan that Israeli security officials are now, at long last, proposing (but that the country’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has not agreed to so far). Israel would also have to undertake a full-scale civilian evacuation of Rafah before any military operation and then try to take out as much of Hamas as possible with as few civilian casualties as possible. Given the horrors of this kind of tunnel-based urban warfare, this will be a painful time and painfully difficult. But absent some new alternative strategy, Biden is wrong to stop Israel from confronting the Hamas threat in southern Gaza.

Finally, like pretty much every expert I consulted, I’m also left with the conclusion that Israel has to completely rethink and change the humanitarian and political side of this operation. Israel needs to supplement its military strategy with an equally powerful Palestinian welfare strategy.

Israel’s core problems today are not mostly the fault of the I.D.F. or its self-defense strategy. Israel’s core problems flow from the growing callousness with which many of its people have viewed the Palestinians over the past decades, magnified exponentially by the trauma it has just suffered. Today, an emotionally shattered Israeli people see through the prism of Oct. 7. They feel existentially insecure, facing enemies on seven fronts — Gaza, West Bank, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Yemen and Iran. As Ross has noted, many often don’t see a distinction between Hamas and the Palestinians. Over 80 percent of West Bank Palestinians told pollsters they supported the Oct. 7 attack.

As the columnist Anshel Pfeffer wrote in the Israeli paper Haaretz, “The very idea that Israel needed to take any responsibility whatsoever for the place from which those who had murdered, raped and pillaged had emerged was seen as a moral abomination.”

Pfeffer continued that because of this attitude, “the government’s policy on humanitarian supplies to Gaza is a combination of vengeance, ignorance and incompetence.” He quoted unnamed I.D.F. officials who acknowledged that of course Israel is responsible for the welfare of the people in the area it controls but that the civilian leaders refuse to confront this.

On occasions when Israel has responded to world pressure and shifted policy, it has done so in secret, with no discussion in the cabinet.

An officer whose duties specifically include addressing the needs of civilians told Pfeffer that he didn’t have much to do except for some odd jobs.

Israel is failing to lay the groundwork for some sort of better Palestinian future — to its own detriment. The security experts I spoke with acknowledge that providing humanitarian aid will be hard. As Cohen told me: “If the Israeli military takes over distributing humanitarian aid to Gaza, they will likely lose soldiers in the process. And so Israelis are asking why should their boys die providing aid to someone who wants to kill them. So the United States needs to convince Israel that this is the morally and strategically right thing to do.”

For her book “How Terrorism Ends,” the Carnegie Mellon scholar Audrey Kurth Cronin looked at about 460 terrorist groups to investigate how they were defeated. Trying to beat them with military force alone rarely works. The root causes have to be addressed. As the retired general David Petraeus reminded his audience recently at the New Orleans Book Festival, “Over time, hearts and minds still matter.”

Israel also has to offer the world a vision for Gaza’s recovery, and it has to do it right now. Ross argues that after the war is over, the core logic of the peace has to be demilitarization in exchange for reconstruction. In an essay in Foreign Affairs, he sketches out a comprehensive rebuilding effort, bringing in nations and agencies from all over the world, so Gaza doesn’t become a failed state or remain under Hamas control.

Is any of this realistic given the vicious enmity now ripping through the region? Well, many peace breakthroughs of the past decades happened after one side suffered a crushing defeat. Egypt established ties with Israel after it was thoroughly defeated in the Yom Kippur War. When Israel attacked Hezbollah in southern Lebanon in 2006, the world was outraged. But after the fighting stopped, some Lebanese concluded that Hezbollah had dragged them into a bloody, unnecessary conflict. The Hezbollah leader, Hassan Nasrallah, was forced to acknowledge his error, saying he didn’t know Israel would react so violently. The Lebanese border stabilized. Israel’s over-the-top responses have sometimes served as effective deterrents and prevented further bloodshed.

Israel and the Palestinians have both just suffered shattering defeats. Maybe in the next few years they will do some difficult rethinking, and a new vision of the future will come into view. But that can happen only after Hamas is fully defeated as a military and governing force.

The Times is committed to publishing a diversity of letters to the editor. We’d like to hear what you think about this or any of our articles. Here are some tips. And here’s our email: letters@nytimes.com.

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David Brooks has been a columnist with The Times since 2003. He is the author, most recently,  of “How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen.” @nytdavidbrooks

A version of this article appears in print on  , Section A, Page 22 of the New York edition with the headline: What Would You Have Israel Do to Defend Itself?. Order Reprints | Today’s Paper | Subscribe
79
Politics & Religion / Re: Terror Cells here in America
« Last post by Crafty_Dog on March 25, 2024, 02:19:49 PM »
Brownie points for resurrecting this old thread, but I am thinking it has been subsumed by the Homeland Security thread.

Let's continue there.
80
Politics & Religion / How Russian Navy lost to a country without any ships
« Last post by Crafty_Dog on March 25, 2024, 02:16:47 PM »
Note discussion of Sevastopol too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6UeNBj9rrU
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