Author Topic: Bridges and Infrastructure  (Read 6310 times)

DougMacG

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Bridges and Infrastructure
« on: August 22, 2007, 09:53:07 PM »
This post could have gone into 'Science' but I think the topic, if discussed, will quickly move to politics.  I wrote earlier that  "I twice drove over an 8-lane, 2000 ft. bridge within 3 hours of it tumbling into the Mississippi."  The story is national but it is a particularly big deal here since it is still down and quite a few people died, 13 I think.  My flippant mind tells me the force that brought the bridge down was gravity and the onus was on the engineers to tell us why it shouldn't fall.

First hunch on cause that makes so far is good news in a sense because it was only installed on a few bridges including the I-35W Minneapolis bridge that fell and the counterpart I-35E bridge over the Mississippi in St. Paul.  It turns that they installed an automatic spraying system for Potassium Acetate on the bridge which is likely a weld and bolt corrosion accelerator.  That's a side effect; its primary purpose is to rust and rot our cars, it also melt snow and ice.

My lesson so far from this ordeal is to question whether these are the people we want to run our health care system.

(Repeating from above, this is only a hunch, the cause of the collapse won't be determined for a long time)

http://www.startribune.com/10204/story/1377743.html

Oct. 19, 1999: I-35W bridge getting de-icer system

By Laurie Blake, Star Tribune

Starting today, the most notorious winter slick spot on the Twin Cities-area freeway system - the Interstate Hwy. 35W Bridge over the Mississippi River - is being fitted with an automatic de-icing system.

Using temperature- and precipitation-activated nozzles embedded in the bridge deck, the system will spray the bridge with liquid potassium acetate in a bid to rid the surface of the treacherous black ice that has caused more than 120 accidents in the past five winters.

The potassium retains its melting power at 20 to 30 degrees below zero. Keeping the bridge clear of black ice has been difficult at sub-zero temperatures when salt is no longer effective. The State Patrol occasionally has closed the bridge to protect drivers.

The automatic system will apply the liquid potassium to the bridge from 68 spray heads in the driving surface placed 59 feet apart and from eight additional spray heads on the north end of the bridge in the median barrier and on the sides of the bridge, said Ia Xiong, project engineer.

Sensors in the bridge detect freezing temperatures before ice forms and activate the potassium spray to prevent ice formation.  The liquid will squirt out of nozzles in an arc 4 to 6 inches high, so motorists will see the spray. The deck surface will be wet.  The plastic nozzles are about an inch thick and 11 inches in diameter. The spray will reach most of the bridge and vehicles will spread it across the entire deck.

Body-by-Guinness

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Francis Scott Key Bridge Collapse an Act of Sabotage?
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2024, 06:05:50 AM »
This happened about 70 miles from me and is a BIG DEAL as it closes the port of Baltimore, interupts East Coast trucking, and generally shows how vulnerable our infrastructure is. Some are speculating that this was a result of a cyberattack on the ship, others are claiming special "green" fuels demanded in Baltimore Harbor caused engine failure:

https://amgreatness.com/2024/03/26/the-cargo-ship-dali-previously-smashed-into-a-dock-at-port-in-belgium/

ETA more info on economic impact of this collapse:

https://www.breitbart.com/economy/2024/03/26/baltimore-port-inflation/
« Last Edit: March 27, 2024, 06:13:35 AM by Body-by-Guinness »

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Bridges and Infrastructure
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2024, 06:35:52 AM »
Doggie treats for BBG for finding this thread!!!    :-D :-D :-D

I do note the conceptual overlap with this thread:

https://firehydrantoffreedom.com/index.php?topic=2811.msg144445#msg144445

BBG has already complained of the plethora of threads.   Would it make sense to merge this thread into the Supply Chain thread?

What say we?

Crafty_Dog

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Buy American, Build Nothing
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2024, 06:57:16 AM »
second

Buy American, Build Nothing
The infrastructure law of 2021 makes it hard to build anything.
By Judge Glock
March 25, 2024 4:58 pm ET
WSJ


The Bipartisan Infrastructure Law of 2021 is reshaping how America builds—but not in the way its supporters hoped. Few big projects have been completed, and one little-noted aspect of the law, expanding mandates to use American-made products, has confused federal, state and local governments, and created new levels of bureaucratic waste.

Since the 1970s the Buy America program has required that federally funded transportation projects use steel, iron and manufactured goods made in the U.S. But the new version—Build America, Buy America, adorably called BABA for short—added to the all-American list construction materials and specific products such as glass, lumber and drywall while tightening oversight of the program.

The new law also expanded Buy America requirements far beyond transportation to include all infrastructure funded by the federal government. As with many mandates during the Biden administration, the law defined the terms as broadly as possible, with “infrastructure” including “at a minimum” not only roads, dams and airports, but utilities, broadband and even individual buildings.

Government agencies are scrambling to find out how to comply with its impossible burdens. The Education Department found 32 separate programs that would be classified as infrastructure under the law. The Federal Emergency Management Agency found 23 programs.

The law formally created a Made in America Office to review agency compliance and approve waivers. Considering the extent of the mandates, this has been difficult. The law put that office in charge of policing individual government purchases for domestic content. This has wrapped federal officers in minutiae. The Transportation Security Administration had to get a waiver to order “tactical pants” for air marshals. The Department of Veterans Affairs and other departments had to get a waiver to buy pills for the treatment of HIV. The Environmental Protection Agency got a waiver so that the North Unit Irrigation District of Madras, Ore., could use reinforced polyethylene liner for a canal when there were no U.S. producers for this niche product.

All the mandates, waivers, and box-checking add time and cost to government purchases. The law itself says BABA can increase costs by up to 25% on the entirety of a project. But according to some studies, products subject to Buy America requirements can easily cost more. The Federal Highway Administration, which already had to adhere to the old Buy America law, this month estimated that some of the new BABA requirements could cost more than $700 million a year to implement, although the agency admitted it didn’t calculate the expense of compliance and delays.

America’s critical defense and national security products should be made at home. But pants and drywall don’t have to be. Because of BABA, the infrastructure law has made building in the U.S. harder than ever.

Mr. Glock is director of research at the Manhattan Institute and author of “The Dead Pledge: The Origins of the Mortgage Market and Federal Bailouts, 1913-1939.”

Crafty_Dog

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Body-by-Guinness

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Re: Bridges and Infrastructure
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2024, 09:17:01 AM »
Doggie treats for BBG for finding this thread!!!    :-D :-D :-D

I do note the conceptual overlap with this thread:

https://firehydrantoffreedom.com/index.php?topic=2811.msg144445#msg144445

BBG has already complained of the plethora of threads.   Would it make sense to merge this thread into the Supply Chain thread?

What say we?

I don't care much, so long as it has some sort of hope of showing up when searching for a given topic. "Pan-Fa" is one I haven't wrapped my head around yet and is unlikely to have turned up in a search, with the "famine" side of "Pan Fa" seeming a tertiary impact of this bridge collapse.

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Bridges and Infrastructure
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2024, 03:30:23 PM »
PanFa is a term we take from Michael Yon.  Pandemic leads to supply chain disruptions leading to famine leading to mass migrations (often weaponized) leading to war.

For the thread in question, the intention of the title is a "catch all".   

My intention here is to minimize the number of threads (per your request) while encouraging consistency of themes over time.

Crafty_Dog

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Response to Lara Logan
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2024, 03:31:55 PM »
second

From a forum I frequent:

"She's wrong about no pilots on board. She's also wrong about the ship not being in the channel track. "What's Going on With Shipping" has a video showing the track snd has a good explanation of how the ship veered.

"Short story: a single screw ship tends to turn starboard when answering a backing bell. And the more way you remove (slower you go), the less the rudder works. I'm interested to see if the Master is criticised for ringing up a Back Emergency bell when power was restored."

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Bridges and Infrastructure
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2024, 06:30:25 AM »
More from that forum:

=====================

Lara is usually on point with her stories, but she jumped the conspiracy shark on this one just like most of the other "independent journalists" out there.

There is zero evidence that this was terrorism or any kind of deliberate false flag. Even the videos of supposed "explosions" on the bridge span are BS. The ship's captain being a Ukrainian is inconsequential.

I have some acquaintances directly involved in the issue, people who deal with maritime navigation on the bay, and the engineering issues with the bridge. They are professional, credible, and down-to-earth people. What they tell me makes perfect sense.

In a nutshell, the causes of this collision and collapse were:

-Shipboard mechanical failure, resulting in power loss, steering loss, and propulsion loss. This results in currents and even the wind affecting the ship's course in a river channel with very little room for error.

-Human error, while committed with every good intention of trying to slow or stop the ship, resulting in a more direct pylon strike instead of a possible glance or near miss. They did also issue a mayday several minutes before they struck the bridge. The mayday info worked its way through to the MTA Police dispatch with barely enough time for them to halt traffic flow on the bridge before it collapsed. This absolutely saved lives, although it was too short of a warning to get the work crew off the bridge.

-Outdated bridge engineering. The bridge was built in 1977, during a time when ship sizes and tonnages were half or less on average than they are now. The bridge pylons and protective dolphins were likely not designed to withstand the transference of kinetic energy that it received from the fully loaded container ship striking it at 8.5mph., particularly a fully loaded ship the size of the Dali. This would be a case of the safety engineering of the bridge being outdated, if that safety engineering was not upgraded to deal with the sheer size and mass of modern container ships in the event of a collision.

I will admit to a tiny possibility of cyber-attack involvement by some bad actor, due to the issues the ship experienced just prior to the collision, and the fact that the ship's computerized systems apparently could be accessed via wifi or whatever system is used on board for GPS/geolocation. Without further specific info, that is the limit of any terrorism or conspiracy conjecture on my part.

I'm sure we have plenty of possible acts of terrorism and false flags to deal with in our near future, but this is not one of them.

We should not be distracted by conspiracy theories about this accident, and lose our focus on the real threats we are facing. This was a stroke of luck for those who wish to harm the US, and they will milk it for all it is worth to them. Don't let the media overload over this event be a distraction from the real issues.

DougMacG

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Re: Bridges and Infrastructure
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2024, 09:23:04 AM »
"The bridge was built in 1977, during a time when ship sizes and tonnages were half or less on average than they are now. The bridge pylons and protective dolphins were likely not designed to withstand the transference of kinetic energy that it received from the fully loaded container ship striking it at 8.5mph., particularly a fully loaded ship the size of the Dali."


  - As this point, obviously not.  I always hate to comment early on disasters when we know so little.  But I do know the priority of concrete that could have reinforced this was more directed to building wind turbines than hypothetical bridge issues.

Remember Condaleeza Rice after 9/11 said no one could have imagined this.  Anyone who has driven a large boat through a small channel at low speeds could have imagined this.  A stalled boat has no steering and no brakes, and then momentum, current and wind take over.  You don't jump in and catch a 1000' ship.

They mention "single screw" a lot in the analyses.  https://www.seattleyachts.com/news/single-versus-twin-screw-propulsion

I don't know anything about 9000 container commercial ships but with large pleasure crafts, the single screw has no control in the tight channels compared to the dual.

Meanwhile, the highly paid people in Washington who might have foreseen this were in pronoun sensitivity training.

ccp

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Re: Bridges and Infrastructure
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2024, 10:03:55 AM »
let me get this straight

of 4 listed missing in the bridge collapse

one from Mexico
one from Guatemala
one from El Salvador
one from Honduras

you know what I am wondering.

DougMacG

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Re: Bridges and Infrastructure
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2024, 10:28:56 AM »
let me get this straight

of 4 listed missing in the bridge collapse

one from Mexico
one from Guatemala
one from El Salvador
one from Honduras

you know what I am wondering.

I think they were in a work truck on the bridge.  Yes they might be ... the word we're not supposed to use.

DougMacG

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Re: Bridges and Infrastructure
« Reply #12 on: Today at 06:26:32 AM »
https://www.postandcourier.com/opinion/editorials/baltimore-bridge-sc-ports-charleston-scdot/article_50948158-ec46-11ee-a06c-e7f7c61b6020.html

If you're making 6 digit salaries in port safety, all these ideas coming out in hindsight would have been good ideas in foresight as well.

But 3 years focus on mid gender bathrooms can be all consuming.