Author Topic: India, India-China, India Afpakia, India-Russia  (Read 212702 times)

ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #400 on: June 20, 2020, 06:16:43 AM »
China's attempts to discourage India from coming closer to the US, may end up India coming closer to the USA..YA

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/will-india-finally-learn-its-lesson-on-china-
Will India finally learn its lesson on China?
Clashes between Indian and Chinese troops are shocking but nothing new. For almost twenty days, in the autumn of 1962, a handful of Indian soldiers surrounded by Chinese troops weathered incessant assaults, before being overrun in Walong, in the Namti plains; the Eastern most corner of India. No support came in 1962, from the shocked Indian government to the unprepared Indian army. A dusty stone-plaque stands there today pledging that Walong will never fall again; a pledge whose strength might soon be tested once more.

For a decade before those events, Jawaharlal Nehru, India’s first socialist post-independence prime-minister, wanted to create a utopian post-colonial alliance in Asia with China. Just like modern post-colonial academics, his ideas were also completely devoid of the geopolitical realities of power, something he finally internalised after a walloping at the hands of Maoist China.

Nevertheless, this romantic idea of Pan-Asian solidarity persisted, as Nehru’s sister gave unconditional support to Chinese membership in the Security Council, even after the utter humiliation of the 1962 war, while charting a non-aligned path outside the US-Soviet rivalry. China did not return the favour.

The same utopian ideal of a Gaullist equidistance continues to haunt India, whose forces got walloped once again in a brutal medieval brawl this week which saw at least 20 Indian soldiers killed, and an unknown number of Chinese casualties. The scale of the conflict, the largest death toll in over half a century is unthinkable, especially considering that no firepower was used. But that’s not the surprising part.

For a country of 1.2 billion, the 6th largest economy, a nuclear power with one of the largest modern navies in the world, it shouldn’t be difficult for India to balance a rising China. India has open-ended offers from the Quad, a semi-formal alliance between the four largest democracies in the Asia-Pacific, to formalise the alliance. Even India’s threat of joining the Quad, of having American, Australian and Japanese troops and navies conduct joint operations in the Himalayas and Indo-Pacific, of selling Brahmos missiles to Vietnam, and jointly patrolling the South China Sea, should send a chill down the spines of the military leaders in Beijing.

And yet India has historically been the weakest link in the Quad, partly by her own design. In 2017, Admiral Sunil Lanba shot down the idea of formalising a naval alliance. 'India is the only country in the Quad with a land border with China. In case of conflict…nobody will come and hold your hand', Lanba argued. While that might be true, joining a formal alliance would have helped in forcing China to divert strategic resources and be on the back foot. It would have led to a useful exchange of real-time military intelligence and diplomatic backing in the UN. Instead, India acquiesced.

New Delhi’s antiquated strategy then is responsible for the rise of Chinese aggression, and India’s political and military class are the architects of her own humiliation. China, on the other hand, once again showed no such reticence and continued with alignments with perpetual problem-child Pakistan and the new Marxist government of Nepal in a bid to circle India.

With the latest violence, the reality of the region has shifted permanently, but it is still to be seen whether that reality is reflected in New Delhi's strategic circles.

India, as a great power, is not dependent on others for her own defence, but India is not great enough to balance China alone. Nor is going solo prudent in geopolitics. The long-dominant view in New Delhi is that China is a continental power which needs to be appeased while the Himalayas are fortified with massive long-duration infrastructure projects which will help India move troops in the event of a war. The strategy is based on the idea that there might be a massive land invasion from China. It also misreads the Chinese strategy.

China is not interested in a war, but rather slicing up parts of advantageous and defensible terrains from the South China Sea to the Himalayas. To offset that, India needs to help others carve up parts surrounding China where Beijing is weak. A naval patrolling in the South China sea, as well as profiting from arms export to Vietnam should be a good start in reestablishing deterrence.

Every romantic theory of solidarity is good until men are bludgeoned and thrown in ditches and warships rammed. Romanticism inevitably gives way to realism. This is a chance for New Delhi to unlearn romantic postcolonial theories and relearn realpolitik to facilitate an alliance to balance China. For the birthplace of Kautilya, it is criminal negligence to forget the grandest of wisdom from Kautilyan realpolitik, 'the king (or state) who is likewise situated close to the enemy, but separated from the conqueror only by the enemy, is termed the friend'. It's time for India to finally learn its lesson.

Sumantra Maitra is researcher in international relations at the university of Nottingham

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Sumantra Maitra
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 06:28:09 AM by ya »

ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #401 on: June 20, 2020, 06:51:25 AM »
Some related news:
1. Yesterday, PM Modi had an all party meet. Amazingly, except for Congress party, all parties were fully supportive of the PM in anything the govt wanted to do. The Congress was also supportive, but lets say their support was less than 100%.
PM Modi has clarified, that the current standoff occurred at Galwan because China tried to build structures on the Indian side of the LAC, even though the Lt.Gen level talks ended up discussing withdrawal by both sides. He was emphatic China will not be allowed to unilaterally change the LAC. GOI (Govt of India) admitted that during the last 60 years, 43,000 sq km. lost to Chinese!! and they want more. So far Indian govts have hidden this from the people, but now with satellite imagery, this is no longer possible.

2. Ex Army Chief and current Union Minister indicated that atleast 40 Chinese soldiers were killed and a prisoner exchange took place. Considering that the Indian soldiers were essentially ambushed, this was a good outcome.

3. Some time back, I had indicated that the water on the Galwan river appears to be blocked by China. Well its flowing again. The reasons are not fully clear, but satellite images show some Chinese bull dozer activity.

4. On June 24, Indian Defense Minister will be in Russia to attend their Victory Parade where Indian army contingents typically march. This would mean that nothing major will happen while the minister is outside the country and diplomacy is being given time to work. See item below.

5. There remains a problem at the Pangong lake. India's current LAC is at finger 4, but claims till finger 8. China's LAC is at finger 8, but claims till finger 4. In the past both sides patrolled up to their claims of the no man's land. Now China is not allowing India to patrol the area between finger 4 and 8 (about 8 linear km), in essence they have claimed about 40 sq.km territory and trying to make that the new reality. Will present more information on this area later.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 07:06:49 AM by ya »

Crafty_Dog

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #402 on: June 20, 2020, 07:39:51 AM »
Thank you for the continuing coverage YA.

DougMacG

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #403 on: June 20, 2020, 10:44:49 AM »
Great posts, very insightful!

Peace through strength is the first thing that comes to mind.  China has been testing and finding weakness.  In Modi (and in Trump) Xi has found strength in resistance.


"India has open-ended offers from the Quad, a semi-formal alliance between the four largest democracies in the Asia-Pacific, to formalise the alliance. Even India’s threat of joining the Quad, of having American, Australian and Japanese troops and navies conduct joint operations in the Himalayas and Indo-Pacific, of selling Brahmos missiles to Vietnam, and jointly patrolling the South China Sea, should send a chill down the spines of the military leaders in Beijing."


    - Yes.  India's independence even from the US is important but coalitions are the only effective way that China will be countered.

As the US drops from a W.H.O. that did not protect or help us, something similar needs to happen with the UN.  The idea of an 'association of democracies' has been floated.  By definition, Taiwan would be in and the PRC out.  Putin's Russia out as well.  I had not seen this Quad group mentioned before, US, India, Japan, Australia.  That looks like the potential foundation for such a group in that region. 

Let the UN continue as a place where dictators like Kruchev, Castro and Chavez can air their hate speech, and US ambassador's like Nikki Haley try for equal time, but downsize the US contribution to match our influence, 1 of 193.  Invest our strategic energy in a different organization of the like-minded who are willing to share the burden, a NATO of the Asia Pacific.  If not democracies, include all nations whose national and geopolitical interests align with the quad core countries mentioned above.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 10:50:13 AM by DougMacG »

ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #404 on: June 20, 2020, 04:40:22 PM »
A little bit of human angle: The 20 martyr bodies are all going back to their villages for cremation. Each of them is received by the villagers, a lot of support. Pl. see one such example. Not sure if the bollywood music has been added to the video, or it was live! but worth listening.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1274219288216301569

Crafty_Dog

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ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #406 on: June 21, 2020, 09:28:23 AM »
Details of the Indo-Chinese brawl are coming out
https://www.gunnersshot.com/2020/06/the-armed-forces-of-india-unyeilding.html

China is realizing that the DBO road that India is constructing could help it take back Gilgit Baltistan and am sure that their Pak colleagues have had some input into that. The risk of war will remain high for the next 3 months or so, or until winter sets in.

Note: Article link replaced with article written by Lt.Gen, so there may be some Indian bias, but overall accurate. This what the Chinese are up against.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2020, 12:48:22 PM by ya »

Crafty_Dog

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GPF
« Reply #407 on: June 23, 2020, 10:38:55 AM »
   
    Daily Memo: India and China Pull Back From the Brink
Weekly reviews of what's on our bookshelves.
By: Geopolitical Futures
Cooler heads in the Himalayas. India and China on Tuesday agreed on a set of “modalities for disengagement from all friction areas in eastern Ladakh” in the Himalayas, per a Chinese Foreign Ministry statement and unnamed Indian government sources. Few details of the pullback have been released. As we’ve discussed, the unforgiving geography of the Himalayas strictly limits on the ability of either side to escalate matters along the Line of Actual Control itself – making it relatively easy for cooler heads to prevail.
But that doesn’t mean the clashes can’t lead to indirect escalation elsewhere. India, for example, is pushing through a bevy of new restrictions on doing business with Chinese firms amid widespread public calls for a boycott targeting Chinese goods. New Delhi is reportedly reconsidering its reluctance to ban Chinese telecom giants Huawei and ZTE from its 5G buildout. On the military front, India has reportedly asked Russia – for years, India’s foremost arms supplier – to expedite deliveries of new fighter jets and S-400 missile defense systems. Either way, Chinese pressure in the Himalayas isn’t about to go away. On a related note, Nepal’s government is reportedly concerned that China’s rerouting of rivers in Tibet will lead to an expansion of Chinese territorial claims.




ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #408 on: June 24, 2020, 04:48:32 AM »
Looks like talks are going on, but the position on the ground is to build more fortifications by both sides at Galwan, Pangong etc. No trust.

In other news, China is salami slicing Nepalese territory. News reports of clashes with villagers. Oli is the Nepalese PM and is a China stooge. At China s request Nepal changed their map and created a disagreement with India. A lot of money must have changed hands.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2020, 04:50:04 AM by ya »

Crafty_Dog

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Stratfor: India getting pist off
« Reply #409 on: June 24, 2020, 04:29:42 PM »
Following Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's strong condemnation of Chinese actions at the Line of Actual (LAC) control, India is poised for a significant strategy shift in how it manages its contested border with China. The June 15 clash in the long-disputed territory of Ladakh, which marked the first time Indian troops have died at the hands of Chinese forces since 1975, has highlighted India's failure to dissuade China from attempting to permanently alter the balance of power along the border via diplomatic and confidence-building measures. This has left New Delhi more likely to pursue more confrontational options, which will undoubtedly have its risks, though India's battle-tested military may find such an escalation to its short-term advantage.

Modi Sets the Tone
On June 17, Prime Minister Modi broke his silence on the recent clash with one of the most strongly-worded statements on the Indo-China border dispute in recent years. In a televised speech, he ensured that the sacrifice of the 20 Indian soldiers who died in clash would "not be in vain," and that "nobody" could stop India from defending its "sovereignty and integrity." Modi's language was reminiscent of the rhetoric normally reserved for Pakistan, demonstrating a renewed resolve to reinforce Indian claims of territorial sovereignty, and signaling a willingness to use force if pressed. This would mark a dramatic change for India's management of its border tensions with China after nearly 30 years of relying on dialogue and deconfliction.

This shift in tone suggests New Delhi is not only willing to accelerate its own infrastructure development in the region to secure its territorial claims, but multiple bilateral agreements that have helped manage Indo-Chinese border relations may now be at risk. The military option may not be India's first choice in dealing with China, but New Delhi is now openly signaling that it will not remain restrained should China fail to adhere to their five key bilateral agreements concerning the LAC. Clearly, New Delhi needs a way to increase the cost of Chinese actions in order to dissuade further changes to the border region. But at the same time, India remains reticent to allow foreign intervention or the internationalization of its border dispute with China.


Indeed, one of India's biggest challenges in countering China has been its own policy of avoiding alliances aimed at third parties, and its constant efforts to remain non-aligned. This is, in part, driven by India's strong, post-colonial desire to do things on its own, and to avoid being the weak partner in alliances or getting involved in other countries' battles. But while this may allow India to work simultaneously with the United States, Russia and China, it also leaves India vulnerable when the bilateral balance is simply too large for New Delhi to manage alone.

Ways to Counter China
In India, the debate on ways to counter China now centers on three key areas: economic, diplomatic, and military; Each of these may require India to make a break of its post-independence policies, and each comes with inherent risks. On the economic front, it will be more difficult for New Delhi to overcome its massive trade imbalance with China. While there will be local boycotts and a reinvigorated attempt at Modi's "Make in India" campaign, New Delhi will need to look abroad for more strategic counters. Beijing currently outspends New Delhi in many of India's regional relationships, from Myanmar to Sri Lanka. To offset the infrastructure spending shaped within China's Belt and Road initiative, New Delhi will find itself needing to partner with other countries, such as the United States as well as second-tier powers Japan and Australia.

On the diplomatic front, India will also need to rely on third countries to ease Chinese pressure along the LAC. In addition to Australia and Japan, New Delhi will also likely look to strengthen its ties with Vietnam, Indonesia and Taiwan, as well as even places like Fiji, which have a large Indian population and sit in an area of expanding Chinese influence in the Pacific. Expanding these relationships will strain India's foreign policy principles of avoiding alliances. It may also threaten New Delhi's defense ties with Russia, should that become a requirement of greater cooperation with certain partners — particularly with the United States.

Modi has signaled a willingness to use force to manage border tensions with Beijing, which would mark a dramatic shift from India’s decadeslong strategy of dialogue and deconfliction.

India may use its position in the United Nations to press more openly against Chinese activities in Hong Kong, as well as in Tibet and Xinjiang. India continues to host the exiled Dalai Lama, and could step up more direct interaction with the Tibetan government in exile, though such actions would engender a fairly sharp diplomatic and economic response from Beijing. All of this, however, would come at the risk of jeopardizing New Delhi's decadeslong quest for a permanent seat on the U.N. Security Council, which is ultimately beholden to China's approval.

Less Talk, More Military Action
It is in the military sphere where India is likely to make the most dramatic moves, though it is also where New Delhi could face the greatest consequences. In addition to expanding cooperation with its fellow Quadrilateral Security Dialogue (Quad) members in the maritime space, which includes the United States, Japan and Australia, India will likely maintain a larger, year-round troop presence near the LAC (rather than its usual seasonal reductions in forces), and accelerate its existing infrastructure development plans in the region. India may also begin to move artillery and armor closer to the LAC, with the threat to move even closer if China continues to violate existing bilateral agreements. If the parallel of language to the Pakistan situation plays out, we could see India deploy large numbers of troops to remove Chinese structures in dispute (such as tents, outposts and roadblocks) in dispute, rather than relying on small groups. In addition, India will likely respond to any major clashes on the border with firearms, rather than sticks, thus marking a significant escalation in its decadeslong territorial dispute with China.

Such actions would not be without risk, and India, as well as China, both want to step back from increased military confrontation along the LAC, at least for now. But India's military has been involved in a steady stream of battles since the country gained its independence in 1947; its a "bloodied" force. China's People's Liberation Army, by contrast, has fought little since the 1970s, and remains untested in battle. India's threat to use force, despite the risks, is thus more believable. The Indian public has an understanding of the risk and cost of military action. China hasn't yet fully reshaped domestic acceptance of the use of force abroad, and for now, the Chinese government does not appear ready to make that transition. Beijing has very actively suppressed information about the recent deadly clash with India to avoid further stirring up nationalist tensions at home. China's military leadership also likely recognizes that any significant confrontation with Indian forces along the LAC will not be entirely one-sided in Beijing's favor.

While military action is unlikely in the near term, India will still feel compelled to make a strong physical response to the latest clash in Ladakh due to the deaths of Indian soldiers. Indeed, as evidenced by Modi's strongly-worded response, it appears the idea of reconciling and cooperating with China to reduce border tensions is off the table for the time being. This will, in turn, compel India to seriously address its core foreign policy principles — including New Delhi's historically staunch defense of its claimed neutrality in international disputes, and its reluctance to join partnerships or alliances with third countries.

Crafty_Dog

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GPF: India on verge of becoming a major player
« Reply #410 on: June 26, 2020, 04:19:44 AM »
June 26, 2020   View On Website
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    India Rising
The country is on the verge of becoming a major player on the world stage.
By: Allison Fedirka

India’s days as a fairly quiet giant on the world stage are coming to an end. For much of the 21st century, India has punched well below its weight in international affairs. It is the seventh-largest country in the world by area and has the second-largest population, with nearly 1.38 billion inhabitants. Considering its younger demographics, it’s on pace to soon surpass China as the largest country in the world by population. Its economy has steadily climbed in the global ranks over the past two decades and now stands as the fifth-largest. It’s a major energy consumer, and its naval potential could affect China’s power projection capabilities.

But the country has so far been unable to drive global events or influence the actions of global players like the United States, Germany, Russia and China to any substantial degree. This appears to be changing, however. The global center of gravity, both militarily and economically, is shifting from the Middle East to the Indo-Pacific, bringing India front and center in world affairs. Considering that this comes at a time when India’s relative power is increasing, it appears that the country is set to earn a more prominent role in the international system.

India’s long struggle to accrue power and project force is a result of many constraints facing the country. Located on the Indian subcontinent, India is geographically isolated from the rest of Eurasia. Water bodies line about a third of its 14,000-mile-long border, while natural barriers cover much of its land borders. The Himalayan Mountains in the north, Arakan Mountains in the east and the Thar Desert in the west buffer a large portion of the Indo-Gangetic Plain from the rest of Asia. Intense conflicts with Pakistan and the need to balance China have kept India largely focused on the subcontinent. The country’s population, meanwhile, is highly segmented by language, religion and a complicated caste system. Administratively, India’s states and union territories enjoy a high degree of autonomy and have their own regulatory systems that operate parallel to the central government. Political parties have strong roots at the state level, and national parties rely on local partners to gain influence in states and local communities. Physical isolation and intense internal divisions, therefore, have impeded India’s ability to engage with other countries from a position of strength.
 
(click to enlarge)

Recently, however, the government has attempted to improve India’s international standing – and this starts by centralizing power. For much of its post-independence existence, India has had a federal system in which states and union territories have been fairly autonomous. This resulted in a weaker national government and uneven development, but it was a price worth paying because decentralization was seen as the best way to keep states from separating and to keep India intact – which, after partition, was no small feat. To be able to increase its power abroad, however, a stronger central government was needed, and this required a united population and a unifying message.

Over the past six years, the government of Prime Minister Narendra Modi advanced a series of economic reforms aimed at developing a more coordinated, robust national economy. Modi introduced a demonetization scheme and streamlined the country’s goods and services tax system. He made several regulatory changes to try to encourage foreign investment in areas previously dominated by the state or, with the state’s help, smaller local businesses. The government is still working to clean up the country’s financial system, reforming bankruptcy procedures and loosening price controls in an effort to create a more business-friendly environment. It has also supported the development of 25 sectors – such as defense manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, textiles and automobile components – where India has a comparative advantage to attract investment and promote exports. The recent pandemic-triggered crisis served as yet another opportunity for Modi to push through reforms in agriculture, coal and privatization as part of the government’s stimulus and recovery package. At the macro level, there are signs that the moves have been somewhat successful. Since 2014, India’s economy has moved from the 10th-largest to the fifth-largest in the world. Foreign direct investment has increased from $190 billion in 2009-14 to $284 billion in 2014-19.

However, government attempts to unify the country politically and socially have proved difficult. The Modi government has promoted the concept of Hindu nationalism to rally the majority under one flag by drawing on the country’s historic ties to Hindu culture and civilizations. However, Hinduism is also a religion, and one that has clashed in the past with minority religious groups – especially Muslims, who make up 14 percent of the Indian population and are often the target of religious and social violence such as the riots in northeast Delhi earlier this year.

Last year, the government passed the Citizenship Amendment Bill, which excluded Muslims from the groups of illegal immigrants from Bangladesh, Afghanistan and Pakistan eligible for citizenship in India. Under the law, Muslims who flee these countries are ineligible for citizenship because they are not considered minority groups in their countries of origin. There is also a push to implement a nationwide citizen registry by 2024. The registry would require people who live in India to prove their Indian citizenship. If they cannot, they would be considered non-citizens and face legal ramifications such as deportation and denial of services.

Both the Citizenship Amendment Bill and plans for a national registry have proved highly controversial and produced a strong political backlash against the government. Another point of controversy was the August 2019 decision to change the administrative status in Jammu and Kashmir by repealing Article 370 of the Constitution. The move paved the way for expanding the property, employment and residency rights in Jammu and Kashmir – where previously special privileges had been reserved for the majority-Muslim population – to people from other parts of India, including Hindus. Some people in the state voiced concern over a perceived government effort to encourage Hindu migration to the area in an effort to alter its demographics. (Interestingly, though India’s internal conflicts have proved difficult to overcome, throughout its brief history the emergence of an external enemy – the United Kingdom in the 1940s, China today – has helped to unite the population.)

A rapidly growing India has forced the government to prioritize issues beyond domestic divisions. The country’s booming economy relies on energy – foreign energy – to run. In recent years, India needed to secure access to more energy supplies. This, in turn, required India to develop the security infrastructure to protect its supply lines. So New Delhi began to develop its naval capabilities so that the country can move beyond coastal patrols and start projecting power into the Indian Ocean. Another element of the drive toward security self-sufficiency is the domestic production of defense equipment and reduced reliance on foreign weapons and equipment, particularly from a single source. At this point, India’s military is not self-reliant, and its navy still lacks full blue-water capabilities. But it is taking steps in the right direction.

It will need to take further steps, because the focal point of global affairs has been shifting and will continue to shift toward Asia. In particular, the United States has concentrated on China’s efforts at economic and military expansion, which inherently increases India’s strategic value to Washington. India is geographically positioned to contain China to the west, and serves as one of many alternative locations for U.S. businesses seeking to relocate out of China. Similarly, other countries keen to balance against China’s rise, like Japan and Australia, have been courting India to be closer security partners in the region. Even India’s relationship with Pakistan, a neighbor and bitter rival, is now linked to the U.S.-China dynamic, with Beijing using Islamabad as a focal point in its Belt and Road Initiative.
 
(click to enlarge)

Since the start of the Cold War, India has preferred nonalignment, noninterference, nonaggression and economic cooperation. This approach allowed New Delhi to engage with the world without losing its flexibility or becoming the pawn of one of the superpowers. To this day, India is reluctant to further develop the Quad alliance, even though it shares the anti-China sentiment of the other members. But in the current environment, India will see its nonalignment approach challenged given its size and growing proximity to the geopolitical center of gravity.

India is much better positioned to be an important player in the U.S.-China standoff than it was during the Cold War. Internally, the government has made important strides in military and economic development, though more work is needed. Politically and socially, the country still has significant divisions, but it’s stable and is many more decades removed from its founding. Its geographic position makes it extremely valuable to the United States. China will saber rattle along the border, but it has sizable problems internally and in its trade war with the U.S. that prevent it from acting rashly against India. Pakistan will continue its tough talk, but its inferior military and frail domestic economy are obstacles to any actions that would provoke a strong response from New Delhi. Russia’s domestic weaknesses undermine its international hand, but Moscow still provides a counterweight to Beijing and Washington. India is also an important arms buyer for Russia at a time when Moscow needs its export sector to make up for low energy prices.

India has an opportunity to take a proactive role in shaping international affairs to suit its interests. It also faces the risk that it may be forced to take a stronger stance and choose one country over another, breaking from its tradition of nonalignment. Such an event may be hard to imagine now, but the realities of the day mean it’s not impossible.   




ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #411 on: June 27, 2020, 09:42:31 AM »
I thought this explains the situation


ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #412 on: June 27, 2020, 03:06:35 PM »
Looks like the thrashing by the 16 Bihar regiment at galwan is leading to some new thinking. The single child chinese princelings dont have it in them to fight.

China recruits MMA fighters for the border

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/military/article/3090840/china-recruits-mma-fighters-tibet-border-militia?utm_medium=email&utm_source=mailchimp&utm_campaign=enlz-scmp_international&utm_content=20200627&MCUID=a4bd8c5c5e&MCCampaignID=a184902457&MCAccountID=3775521f5f542047246d9c827&tc=21

ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #413 on: June 27, 2020, 06:01:27 PM »
Here's a 5 min video https://youtu.be/pWsdhIVsaG0 explaining the geography of the Galwan region (incase someone wants to get into the broad details)

Crafty_Dog

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GPF: Anti-China Anger
« Reply #414 on: July 01, 2020, 08:50:27 AM »
In India, Anti-China Anger Will Bring Out Modi's Hawkish Side
Thomas Abi-Hanna
Thomas Abi-Hanna
Global Security Analyst, Stratfor
6 MINS READ
Jul 1, 2020 | 10:00 GMT

A surge of anti-China sentiment among Indian lawmakers, business leaders and voters will prompt Prime Minister Narendra Modi to take a more aggressive approach against Bejing in the wake of the two countries' recent border clash. This could include a variety of actions ranging from diplomatic moves to economic and trade measures, as well as a continued military build-up against China, which will only further ratchet up tensions between the nuclear-armed neighbors.

Tensions initially flared after a June 15 clash in Ladakh left at least 20 Indian soldiers dead, marking the deadliest confrontation between the two countries in the disputed Himalayan region since 1975.

Many figures across India's political spectrum have since called for New Delhi to cut its economic dependency on China, and for Modi to take a more assertive stance toward China in Ladakh and elsewhere.

The Ladakh clash has hardened Modi and his Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP)'s already hawkish stance against China, which ranges from distrustful to outright hostile. The BJP and its Hindu nationalist allies have called for a more assertive approach against China for years, but such calls have substantially intensified over the past two weeks.

The general secretary of the BJP, Ram Madhav, said that India should take a similar stance against China as it does with Pakistan over disputed territory in order to defend the "sovereignty of [India's] last inch of the territory." This would mark an especially notable escalation, given that Indian and Pakistan troops frequently exchange gunfire and artillery barrages across their disputed border in Kashmir (Indian and Chinese troops, by contrast, haven't exchanged gunfire in 55 years).

A councilor for the BJP, Urgain Chodon, accused Modi of standing aside while China stole land in Ladakh, marking a relatively rare criticism of Modi from a high-standing member of his party.

Support for a more assertive approach toward China has become a rare consensus political view in Indian politics, with the opposition Indian National Congress (INC) and former high-ranking officials concurring with the BJP's hawkish rhetoric. In fact, both the BJP and INC have accused the other of not being assertive enough toward Beijing, leading to a political game of one-upmanship in anti-Chinese sentiment in which both have called for the government to use economic tools against China while also pushing back Chinese troops in Ladakh.

INC party leader Adhir Chowdhury called the border clash an act of "Chinese aggression" and that China should be repulsed "by whatever means."

In a follow-up to Chowdhury's statement, Gaurav Gogoi, a spokesman for the INC, said that India should use other forms of leverage such as trade to put additional pressure on China.

Prominent INC member Rahul Gandhi accused Modi of allowing China to capture sovereign Indian territory, calling him "Surrender Modi."

In a series of interviews with The Indian Express, former Indian diplomats called for India to build up international pressure on China in the political and economic spheres, while a former army commander also called for putting economic pressure on China.

A surge of anti-China sentiment among Indian lawmakers, business leaders and voters will prompt Prime Minister Narendra Modi to take a more aggressive approach against Bejing in the wake of the two countries' recent border clash.

An upswell of anti-China protests and rhetoric from both major trade associations and ordinary citizens in India, including calls for mass boycotts, sends a clear signal to Modi and other Indian leaders that the desire for a more assertive approach to Beijing is widely supported across Indian constituencies.

Polls taken in the aftermath of the border clash indicated that 68.3 percent of Indians saw China as a bigger enemy of India than Pakistan, India's long-time arch-rival, while nearly an identical number (68.2 percent) indicated they were willing to stop buying Chinese products.

On June 22, the Confederation of All India Traders (CAIT) held a rally in New Delhi in which they burned Chinese goods, called for a boycott of Chinese products and demanded the state governments freeze investment proposals from China.

The president of the Federation of Indian Export Organisations (FIEO) asked the Indian government to prevent the import of Chinese goods that were also made by Indians (such as appliances, cosmetics, electronics and fabrics) but stopped short of calling for a complete boycott.

The Delhi Hotel and Restaurants Owners Association (DHROA) said it would not accept Chinese guests in its hotels or guest houses, while adding it would discontinue the use of Chinese products at its hotels. (This, however, was largely a symbolic move, given that hotels in New Delhi are still closed due to COVID-19.)

Additional anti-China demonstrations were reported in New Delhi and West Bengal, among other areas in recent weeks, while residents in Ahmedabad, Gujarat threw China-made television sets out of their windows.

This wide-ranging political pressure will prompt Modi and his BJP government to use additional formal and informal economic measures against China on both federal and state levels. Modi has shown with past controversial actions, including the revocation of Jammu and Kashmir's autonomous status and the introduction of the Citizenship Amendment Act, that his decision-making process is highly influenced by domestic considerations.

While a complete boycott of Chinese goods is unfeasible given the volume of Chinese-Indian trade, India will use additional formal and informal economic measures against China on both federal and state levels.

The Indian government has already moved to add "Made in China" labels to Chinese goods, delay Chinese shipments coming into Indian ports and shut down Chinese digital applications. A government source recently told the Times of India that these moves were only the "first salvo" in New Delhi's response to China, and that India had a diverse range of other retaliatory options it planned to use against Beijing.

The state of Maharashtra also recently froze three Chinese investment proposals worth $658 million in the aftermath of the border clash.

Modi will also be incentivized to adopt a more confrontational Indian military stance in Ladakh, where India is continuing to build up its infrastructure, and could begin arming troops at the disputed border with firearms rather than sticks or other blunt weapons.

India will seek to accelerate the purchase and acquisitions of arms, defensive systems and other military equipment from a variety of suppliers including the United States and Russia in an attempt to offset its military imbalance with China.

To counterbalance Chinese influence in the Indo-Pacific region, Modi will look to deepen economic, military and political ties with its fellow Quadrilateral Security Dialogue members (Australia, Japan and the United States) as well — a move that would surely upset Beijing. India's strategic imperative to avoid firm alliances, however, will prevent it from becoming too close with these powers.

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #415 on: July 02, 2020, 08:25:20 AM »
India has had 3 rounds of commander level talks with the Chinese. They talk of de-escalation and withdrawl of troops in the talks, but the ground situation does not change much, infact it gets worse in some areas. The problem is that Indian military circles talk of anywhere from 30-120 Chinese casualties at Galwan, inpart because a ridge that the Chinese were standing on collapsed, sending them down to their deaths. This was an unexpected outcome and the Chinese had neither gamed the furious hand-hand fight with Indians or the large number of Chinese casualties. China cannot accept higher casualties than India and be seen to withdrawing without any concrete gains. If there is a stalemate, India wins. It is unlikely that China wants a war, because as the Galwan incident shows, wars do not always go as planned, yet they cant just withdraw, otherwise what was the point of the intrusion ?. So my guess is the withdrawal will be long and slow (until winter sets in) and both sides can withdraw under the guise of the weather (70%), or there will be a short military skirmish where the Chinese attack and quickly declare peace and withdrawal (10 %). If the Chinese are serious there is also a 10 % chance in my estimation of a two front war where Pak strikes from the west and China from the east to make territorial gains. However, the risks that this turns into a full fledged war are huge with this scenario. There is 5-10% chance that if talks do not progress, India makes the first move to capture back some territory, because the national mood is that the Chinese need to be responded to militarily, otherwise this will occur every few years.

Looks like they had recently changed the local commander (Maj.Gen Liu Lin) of the South Xinjiang military region as well as the General (Zhao Zongqi) in charge of the Chinese Western Theater Command. Both these gentlemen are close to She Gin Ping. Any new commander typically tries to show some "moves", especially since the Doklam stand-off in Bhutan did not go well for the Chinese as they withdrew without firing a bullet.

In the meantime, it looks like the Chinese are shooting themselves in the foot, this is what happens when they have not fought a proper war in decades.
- The govt has shut the Chinese out of billions of dollars in govt infrastructure contracts as well as telecom contracts. While ZTE and Huawei have not been named as yet, they are not eligible to apply for the telecom contracts.
- Indian govt has banned about 50 Chinese apps, including TikTok which has about 120 million users. Monetarily this does not affect China much, but the network effects are tremendous. This will give Indian companies a leg up to make Indian software.
- Lots of discussion to not buy Chinese goods, they are turning an entire generation of Indians against Chinese products. Many companies are promising to stop purchasing chinese products.
-India is now openly encouraging the move of companies away from China to India
- For the first time, India has started to speak out against China in world forums, recent statement on Hong Kong, envoys to Taiwan, China Virus investigation etc.
- India has been pushed out of its slumber, they are buying a lot of military weapons, in the last few days, orders have been given for about 2 fighter jet squadrons to Russia, upgrade of another 3 squadrons of Russian jets, new naval and land based missiles (Israel) and special howitzer shells to the USA. Approval of indigenous missiles and jets which was languishing has been given. The US govt has announced they will start providing training to Indian and asia-pacific nations on the F-35. Activities with the QUAD nations are being strengthened, Australia just announced a several hundred billion dollar defense investment package for Australia. The French have expedited sales of military Rafale jets, 6 coming this month, along with several modern air-missiles, Russia has already provided bombs etc and the S-400 delivery has been expedited.

The longer this goes on , the worse it gets for the Chinese.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 01:19:54 PM by ya »

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #416 on: July 02, 2020, 09:03:00 AM »
In the meantime, pl. enjoy Chinese driving skills., quite useful in making a quick retreat.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1276583344776642561

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #417 on: July 03, 2020, 07:16:51 AM »
PM Modi lands at forward military base Nimoo in Ladakh, gives a rousing patriotic speech. Message clear and loud to China. India will not accept Chinese territorial aggression, must return to status quo ante. She Gin Ping left in a bind, no face saver will be offered. Knowing that when Modi says something, he means it, China needs to rethink this fiasco. They have become used to bullying weak countries and getting their way territorially. I read somewhere that China has borders with 14 countries, but border disputes with 21!

PM has said the full military power of the nation on land, air sea, economic and diplomatic forces will be used. Several international partners have been briefed on the situation. The nation is being prepared for war, if necessary.

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #418 on: July 03, 2020, 08:42:08 AM »
Nice write up
https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/06/26/galwan-border-china-india-war-conflict/

The Galwan Killings Are the Nail in the Coffin for China and India’s Relationship
India was already uneasy with China. Now it’s furious.

BY JEFF M. SMITH | JUNE 26, 2020, 9:40 AM

For the last two months, China and India have been embroiled in a series of standoffs along their disputed Himalayan border that has become the worst crisis in Sino-Indian relations in over 50 years. In some ways, this is familiar territory: India records several hundred Chinese transgressions across the de facto border, known as the Line of Actual Control (LAC), annually, and this marks the fourth prolonged border crisis in seven years. However, the still-unfolding standoffs represent a far more novel and consequential crisis, threatening the tenuous framework that has previously prevented China-India relations from devolving into open rivalry.

It was clear from the outset this border crisis would be different. Following uncommon, but not unprecedented, reports of fistfighting between Chinese and Indian border patrols in early May, the Indian press made a dramatic revelation. The Chinese military had massed thousands of soldiers and towed artillery at multiple noncontiguous locations along the LAC where the Indian union territory of Ladakh meets Tibet, even temporarily crossing the LAC near the Galwan River in May.


What’s worse, the Chinese army was probing in sectors of the LAC, including Sikkim and the Galwan River, long considered settled by New Delhi. Perhaps most concerning, the army seemed to be trying to alter the status quo by occupying a so-called gray zone along the banks of Pangong Lake, a particularly contentious stretch of the border where the very location of the LAC is disputed.

The proximate cause of China’s border maneuvers was the subject of feverish speculation in India. Was Beijing following in the footsteps of its “all-weather friend” Pakistan by responding to New Delhi’s August 2019 decision to revoke Kashmir’s autonomous statehood? Was it objecting to new Indian restrictions on Chinese investment? Lashing out amid international pressure over the COVID-19 pandemic and growing domestic incentives to project a muscular nationalism abroad? Or should the Chinese be taken at their word? Were they, as they had done numerous times in the past, objecting to recent Indian infrastructure upgrades near the LAC by presenting it with a fait accompli? To this day that remains the most likely explanation. But if Beijing was drawing from a familiar playbook, its tactics this time appeared far more aggressive.But if Beijing was drawing from a familiar playbook, its tactics this time appeared far more aggressive.
After several inconclusive rounds of talks between local officers, senior Chinese and Indian commanders met on June 6 and agreed to ease tensions at the border. One week later, with the crisis seemingly unwinding, disaster struck. On the night of June 15, the LAC witnessed a terrible spasm of violence near the Galwan River. The rules of engagement near the LAC bar the use of live ammunition—but not brutal, medieval combat. Fighting along the narrow ridgeline of a Himalayan mountain, 20 Indian soldiers were killed. Some were beaten to death with metal rods and spiked clubs. Others literally fell, or were pushed, to their death. China hasn’t reported its own casualties, as “comparisons may trigger antagonism on both sides.”

The precise details and location of that fateful brawl remain the subject of debate, but the fight reportedly began when Indian forces approached the LAC to confirm China’s compliance with the disengagement pact. The violence erupted when the Indian patrol demanded the dismantlement of a Chinese outpost straddling the LAC on India’s side.

In the aftermath, Beijing and Delhi blamed each other for violating the LAC and initiating hostilities. Surprisingly, China also laid claim to the entire Galwan River valley, a departure from outside analysts’ prior understanding of China’s claims there. Indian External Affairs Minister S. Jaishankar insisted China’s actions “reflected an intent to change the facts on the ground in violation of all our agreement.”

At the same time, both sides signaled their interest in further de-escalating the situation. Neither country has shown any interest in a wider conflict, and an 11-hour meeting between senior military commanders on June 22 focused on future steps for de-escalation. For now, the LAC near the Galwan River has fallen quiet again.

There are several catches here. First, recent reports aided by satellite imagery suggest that, far from disengaging from the site of the Galwan brawl (which either lies right on the LAC or 100 meters on India’s side, depending on the map), China appears to have substantially reinforced its position there. There are now Chinese defensive structures, shelters, trenches, and vehicles visible, as well as culverts constructed over the Galwan River “near the spot where bulldozers appeared to have stopped the flow of the waters” in May, the Indian broadcaster NDTV reported. Other reports suggest China continues to mass forces and erect structures near the LAC in other parts of the eastern sector, including the Depsang Valley.

Second, even if the two sides return to the June 6 de-escalation road map covering multiple sites at the Galwan River, Depsang, Gogra, and Hot Springs, there’s a more intractable standoff unfolding farther south, at Pangong Lake. In recent years, the banks of the lake have become a tinderbox, host to a growing number of hostile confrontations between the two sides. With no mutual agreement on the LAC there, a several-kilometer stretch along the northern bank between spits of land known as “Finger 4” and “Finger 8” became a volatile gray zone, claimed and patrolled by both sides. Notably, China has enjoyed a superior position there, having built a road through the area in 1999, while Indian soldiers are forced by inhospitable geography to patrol the contentious stretch on foot.

Last month, several hundred Chinese troops pushed west from their base near Finger 8 to a point near India’s easternmost base at Finger 4 and set up camp, erecting dozens of new structures along the way, seizing the high ground, and staking claim over the Pangong gray zone. The Indian media is now embroiled in a debate over whether China has effectively seized Indian territory while reviewing Delhi’s options to respond.



India Is Paying the Price for Neglecting its Neighbors. Narendra Modi came to power promising to prioritize relations with countries such as Bangladesh, Nepal, and Sri Lanka. China is taking advantage of his failure to do so.

Unsurprisingly, the Indian public is outraged. A large and growing segment of the Indian elite had already grown increasingly disenchanted with China in recent years, frustrated by Beijing’s ongoing patronage to Pakistan, its probing at the border, and its growing footprint in India’s immediate neighborhood. As a result, they have also grown increasingly desirous of a stronger partnership with the United States. Now, those calls have been amplified and joined by a broader cross-section of Indian society, including those once hopeful for a more constructive relationship with China, or at least more equidistance between Washington and Beijing. “The policy of riding on two horses – getting closer to the US without ruffling too many feathers in China – has run its course,” writes the researcher Sushant Sareen. “India will have to decide whether to reinforce a failed policy, or forge a new one which involves a much closer alliance with the US and its allies.”

For its part, the Trump administration has been largely reserved in its public commentary on the crisis. In May, Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Alice Wells warned of China’s “constant aggression, the constant attempt to shift the norms, to shift what is the status quo. That has to be resisted whether it’s in the South China Sea … or whether it’s in India’s own backyard.” More recently, administration officials have made only passing references to the LAC crisis. However, this is likely less a sign of impartiality from the United States than a reflection of the Indian government’s preferences: It has traditionally cautioned Washington privately against taking too public a role in India’s disputes with China.

Over the last few decades China and India have invested considerable energy into managing their conflicts of interest and their over 2,100-mile disputed border.Over the last few decades China and India have invested considerable energy into managing their conflicts of interest and their over 2,100-mile disputed border. It’s required both sides to strike a delicate balance, competing and sparring along numerous fault lines while maintaining the veneer of comity and avoiding crossing each other’s red lines. Occasionally, Chinese actions have upset that balance, provoking a sharp response from India. That was the case when Beijing refused to issue a visa to an Indian military officer from Kashmir in 2010; when Chinese submarines surfaced in Sri Lanka in 2014; and when the Chinese military tried to extend a road into the disputed Doklam plateau in 2017. China’s latest adventure at the border hasn’t so much disrupted the balance as reset the entire equation. China’s actions, writes the Times of India’s Indrani Bagchi, “achieved precisely the opposite of what it wanted — it has pushed India into much closer partnerships with the west.”

Some analysts contend Beijing is convinced India’s history of nonalignment will prevent it from ever drawing too close to the United States. The China expert Yun Sun and others argue the opposite: that Beijing views India as a “lost cause” and that no amount of catering to Indian sensitivities will prevent it from aligning with its more natural partner in the United States. She writes: “India is believed to be strategically unreliable to begin with and China has no interest in acquiescing to India’s attempt to advance its position on territorial disputes to trade for concessions. … If a strategic friendship with India is untenable, it frees up room for tactical gains.” With China having established its own infrastructure network along the LAC, Yun believes Beijing “wants to put an end to the infrastructure arms race” and sees India’s road-building as “an attempt to stab it in the back while China was trying to deal with” growing tensions with the United States and international criticism over the COVID-19 pandemic.

Whatever China’s calculus, it should prepare for a more confrontational posture from the Indian government in the years ahead.Whatever China’s calculus, it should prepare for a more confrontational posture from the Indian government in the years ahead. Within days of the fighting, the Indian press reported Delhi will “bar Chinese companies from providing any telecom equipment to state-run telcos and may also prohibit private mobile phone operators from using gear supplied by the likes of Huawei and ZTE.”

In early June, reports suggested India is considering inviting Australia to the Japan-India-U.S. trilateral naval exercise, Malabar. Beginning June 22, Chinese imports were reportedly being stalled at key Indian ports. Meanwhile, an article in India’s largest Hindi-language newspaper urges the Modi government to “reimagine its policies on Tibet, Taiwan, and Hong Kong” and “be prepared to exit organizations like the [Shanghai Cooperation Organization].” India will likely review its approach to the broad spectrum of policies that fall within the China portfolio, from the Quad and the Belt and Road Initiative to the South China Sea and the Dalai Lama.

In the near term, India will be seeking to return to the pre-May status quo at the LAC, including at Pangong Lake. If Beijing balks, Delhi’s immediate options to respond are limited and unpalatable. While there have been calls inside India for military retaliation and escalation, amid a global recession and pandemic Delhi will be reluctant to start a war over a few dozen kilometers of real estate not previously in its sovereign possession.

Over the long term, there’s more at stake than the fingers of Pangong Lake. And there are more effective, albeit less immediate, ways of imposing costs on China for its border adventure. India already enjoys the world’s third-largest military budget. Within a decade it will likely be the world’s most populous country, with the fourth-largest economy.

Many in China know this, which is why, despite its palpable disdain for India, Beijing has over the years sought to avoid a dramatic rupture with Delhi. But this is a new China, one where “Wolf Warrior” diplomats casually throw decades of more cautious diplomacy to the wind. It’s a China that may have forgotten what it means to win the battle but lose the war.

Jeff M. Smith is a research fellow at the Heritage Foundation in Washington, D.C. and author of Cold Peace: China-India Rivalry in the Twenty-First Century.

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #419 on: July 05, 2020, 05:46:11 AM »
- So China now has NEW border disputes with Bhutan. https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/china-says-it-has-border-dispute-with-bhutan-too/story-TlhVkk7TwAS97DiASzBSBK.html

- In connect the dots news:
1. PM Modi goes to meet the President..he does this before important events.
2. The US is sending 2-3 carrier battle groups to the Indo-China sea. In the US this is perceived as simple freedom of navigation exercise. However, in India this is believed to serve a second purpose. It keeps Chinese forces tied down on east coast of China...thus taking off pressure from Ladakh.
3. Pak is being very, very quiet. No more denunciation of Modi, considering all the activity going next to their border. Trying to keep the peace. Yes they are still sending terrorists, but that is in their DNA.
4. Pompeo has been making calls with India's neighbors, including Pak, Nepal and Sri Lanka and just signed a SOFA agreement with Sri Lanka
http://www.asiantribune.com/node/94361 It is clear that India is receiving US support in this fight against China.

The world is uniting against China's expansionist policies and bullying. Seeing India stand up to China has an effect on other smaller nations. Even small nations from Bhutan to ASEAN countries are speaking up https://asiatimes.com/2020/06/asean-finally-pushes-back-on-chinas-sea-claims/

How can China be a world power, with only Pak and NK as its friends ?

« Last Edit: July 05, 2020, 06:23:48 AM by ya »

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #420 on: July 05, 2020, 04:06:41 PM »

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #421 on: July 05, 2020, 06:53:06 PM »
After Lt.Gen level talks, now Cabinet Secretary level talks with Indian NSA in the offing.

https://indianexpress.com/article/india/delhi-explores-sr-level-talks-amid-first-tentative-signs-of-climbdown-6491847/

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #422 on: July 06, 2020, 03:09:09 PM »
Looks like de-escalation is happening. Have to wait and see if they are serious. Not sure what was the point of China's move to escalate in the first place.

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #423 on: July 06, 2020, 05:53:45 PM »
Looks like de-escalation is happening. Have to wait and see if they are serious. Not sure what was the point of China's move to escalate in the first place.

Testing, probing, gathering intelligence.

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #424 on: July 06, 2020, 07:06:17 PM »
Yes, they learnt about India's resolve along with response times. But at a cost of hundreds of billions, turned the whole country against them. Not likely to get 5G/Huawei contract now. It took about 50 years to build up the trust to some extent, its now all gone.

Displeased their own veterans by not acknowledging casualties. https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jun/29/retired-and-hurt-pla-veterans-could-become-a-force/

Overall, looks like they shot themselves in the foot.

My own theory is that the Chinese are worried that India may take Gilgit Baltistan (GB)/POK and with that goes their investment in CPEC (China Pak Economic Corridor), the corridor passes through Gilgit Baltistan, Pak and then to the Arabian sea. There have been some hints that they need some assurances regarding that. I dont think they particularly care about  Pak, the value of which is declining daily and will go to zero once GB is lost by Pak.

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #425 on: July 06, 2020, 07:21:48 PM »
China has serious internal stability concerns. This will motivate much of their aggressive moves in asia.


Yes, they learnt about India's resolve along with response times. But at a cost of hundreds of billions, turned the whole country against them. Not likely to get 5G/Huawei contract now. It took about 50 years to build up the trust to some extent, its now all gone.

Displeased their own veterans by not acknowledging casualties. https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jun/29/retired-and-hurt-pla-veterans-could-become-a-force/

Overall, looks like they shot themselves in the foot.

My own theory is that the Chinese are worried that India may take Gilgit Baltistan (GB)/POK and with that goes their investment in CPEC (China Pak Economic Corridor), the corridor passes through Gilgit Baltistan, Pak and then to the Arabian sea. There have been some hints that they need some assurances regarding that. I dont think they particularly care about  Pak, the value of which is declining daily and will go to zero once GB is lost by Pak.

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #426 on: July 18, 2020, 06:06:55 AM »
Update: Looks like the Chinese have withdrawn from about 3 areas, they are still debating about Pangong Lake and Depsang areas. These are high profile areas and pangong lake in particular is well known to Indian citizens. The govt has said, not even an inch will be given to Chinese. Looks like for the first time the govt is fighting back against Chinese salami slicing tactics, where they advance 2 steps forward and become magnanimous and go back one step.

The news that is circulating is that a Chinese Western Theater Command general, close to Xi wanted to show India its place after the 73 day Doklam standoff where the Chinese had to make a humiliating withdrawal. The plan was to make a quick point and the Chinese  preplanned the Galwan barbed club fight, but had not expected a ferocious Indian response with a high Chinese body count. Now they are stuck in a no win situation, with serious loss of face and things getting worse for them. They have widely escalated at multiple points on the LAC, but will need to withdraw from all areas. For a super power like China, a stalemate with India is a loss of face, whereas for India its a win. Their propaganda of taking on the USA is not going to work well, if they cant even show India its place.

- India has made a lot of weapons purchases, where India was dilly-dallying before. Thanks China for upgrading Indian military stock.
- Lots of Chinese companies banned, Billions of dollars in losses
- No chance Huawei will get the 5g contract
- Higher level envoy exchange with Taiwan
- India close to asking Australia to join QUAD
- India and US exchanging military information and working closely
- Indian naval exercises near Andaman Nicobar Islands, while US exercises with 2 CBG in south china sea.

I will leave you with this picture, might give the Chinese sleepless nights.

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #428 on: July 19, 2020, 07:13:00 AM »
https://www.indiandefencetimes.com/how-china-is-at-a-great-disadvantage/
Air War Over Aksai Chin: How China Is At A Great Disadvantage
By Indian Defence Times -18/07/20200

 
In a desperate attempt to draw away the limelight from COVID-19, China does what most autocratic governments do, ‘go to war’ with nations, least foment trouble

by Group Captain MJA Vinod

Panda’s Pandemonium

Year of Rat 2020 has not been good for the world, especially for China, a country with a Middle Kingdom mindset. I would prefer calling China as Panda rather than a Dragon. Dragon is a wrong epithet for a country which behaves in a cowardly fashion with its neighbours.

Towards the end of 2019, China unleashed Wuhan Virus aka COVID-19 upon the world. It led to huge loss of life, loss of livelihood and stress on economy in most countries. In a desperate attempt to draw away the limelight on this atrocity on the world China does what most autocratic government do, ‘go to war’ with nations, least foment trouble to take away the focus from Chinese created COVID-19.

The killing of 20 Indian soldiers of Indian Army including the Commanding Officer was one such lame attempt by the Panda. Visit of PM Narendra Modi to Leh in this aspect is an important step. Apart from the fact that it motivates the forces there, it is also a political signalling to China and the World that India is no longer going to take it as it did in the past, meekly. Panda has a big army and Air Force with a lot of reverse engineered fighters. Claims of their capability is albeit questionable. If panda decides to engage with India how can Indian Air Force swing and probably finish the battle in few days is what we are going to see.

Terrain

Terrain is going to play a major role in the war with Panda. Both for Army to Army engagements and for Air operations. Let’s see the aspects of terrain that is going to shape the battle in favour of India. Let‘s see each attribute separately.

Army to Army Contact: Panda is going to fight India at high altitudes on surface. Area of contact is going to range from 10,000 feet to 14,000 feet. To put things in perspective, normally, human beings would need additional oxygen above 10,000 feet unless he/she is acclimatized, which is a process that can take anywhere from 7-20 days depending upon the final altitude. This is not a major disadvantage for him as it is for us, because Panda’s soldiers would travel to these regions over higher altitude acclimatizing in the process.

What is really going to bake his cookie is when he uproots forces from east which is at sea level and inducts them into high altitude through air. Acclimatization timing for these soldiers is going to be so high that war would be over by then. This also means China cannot induct fresh forces from plains when his force level depletes due Air Interdiction by IAF and by India Army action. This needs to be understood by the readers clearly.

Air Bases available for Chinese Army Air Force Operations: Unlike Indian Air Force, Chinese Air Force is called PLAAF (People’s Liberation Army Air Force), yes, it’s Air Force is subservient to its Army. At higher levels it is the Army General who is going to decide how the air arm will be applied, strategically. This could well prove to be the Achilles heels for PLAAF. To add to its woes is the lack of airbase in this region. I have drawn two circles with the centre at area of force application near Aksai Chin. I have not marked Indian bases though for obvious reasons, while it is no secret.

500 km radius: At 500 km radius, which is more or less the radius that is viable for Air operations using fighters without air-air refuelling giving an over target time of 15 minutes to an hour depending on the engagement at the place of force application, in our case area near Galwan Valley. As you can see in the 500 km circle, China has only two air bases namely Hotan and Ngari Kunsa. Hotan is a proper military airfield (with no Hardened Aircraft Shelter, waiting to be cleaned up by IAF) while Ngari Kunsa is at 14,000 feet with minimal facility for Fighter Operations.

1000 km radius: I have also drawn a 1000 km radius circle from the area of force application. At a thousand km radius Kasi, Kashgar gets added to Chinese potential. Korla & Xicun which are bases either side of Bosten lake and Urumqi Air Base are situated at 1300 to 1500 km.

Indian Potential at these Distances: At these distances Indian potential is disproportionality high. In fact, the entire IAF’s might be brought to bear on Panda. For example, from these ranges IAF could launch from Srinagar, Udampur, Leh, Daulat Baig Oldie, Nyoma, Chusul, Pathankot, Adampur, Halwara, Bhatinda, Sirsa, Chandigarh, Ambala, Amritsar, Jammu, Jodpur, Jaisalmer, Utarlai, Hindon, Barielly, Agra, Gwalior etc. They all are situated at much lower altitudes which offers realisation of full potential of the aeroplanes operating from it with an exception of Airfields in Ladakh & Srinagar.

On Station time: IAF operating from above mentioned bases can take off from lower altitude with full loadout while China suffers badly due to hot and high conditions. IAF can take off from rear bases, operate over the area for at least 2X to 6X time than China and recover to a nearer base, refuel and be on business in a matter of 45 mins. While PLAAF aeroplanes need to go back 500 to 1000 km for refuelling.

Hot and High: Every degree temperature increase at high altitude airfields matters. It puts a lot of restriction on the aeroplanes. An airbus class of aeroplane can land there with full load, however at high temperature cannot take off with ¼ of the load it landed with. That is why you will see all flights to Leh or for that matter to Ngari Kunsa on the Chinese side finishes before 10.00 AM.

Use of Air to Air Refuelers: Some so called experts are Gung ho about Chinese Air-Air refuellers. To burst their bubble Air-Air refuellers are not panacea to the problem of fewer bases that Chinese has in this region. Air to Air refuellers are of two types ‘Drogue and Probe’and ‘Boom and Socket’. Boom and Socket is used only by Americans (it has remarkably high fuel transfer rate). Drogue and Probe is what rest of the world uses. Issues with this type is the fuel transfer rate is just enough to refuel 5-7 aeroplanes because China needs to launch with full fuel from a lower altitude airfield and travel a long distance to give fuel to thirsty fighters over ‘Takla Makan’ regions. Time taken for the refueler to travel, refuelling time, protection required for the refueller itself (Lest it is shot out of the sky by Indian Fighters) etc makes Air – Air refuelling options for Chinese a near impossible feat. By no means I am saying they will not do it. They will, for some special missions. But they cannot do it for day to day operations.

Chinese Army: Sitting Ducks: I make this statement with utmost responsibility. No Army operations can happen without Air Defence cover. Only Air defence cover that Chinese army can have its integral Surface to Air Missiles (SAMs). SAMs have their own issues, starting with issues of range, requirement of radar (which are susceptible to jamming) and Army’s inability to operate outside the Air Defence envelope provided by their SAMs. Do not count S-400 as integral AD weapon. S-400 is a mammoth system which can be moved but cannot be hidden. If moved forward it will be taken out by Mirage 2000 using Crystal Maze or Su-30 with Brahmos or from a Surface launched Brahmos. Chinese Army will be severely constrained in movement and operations. Once their Air Defence weapons are addressed by IAF through SEAD / DEAD (Suppression / Destruction of Enemy Air Defence) PLA will be sitting ducks for IAF to pick and target. Adding to their woes is approach to Galwan valley which provides no natural protection (it’s an open desert), making interdiction by IAF fighters and attack helicopters even easier.

Chinese Rocket Force: This used to be called Second Artillery, an independent force which has more of Surface to Surface missiles (SSM) than Rockets in them. It is called Rocket force because in Mandarin Rocket & SSM are called rockets. Imagine two things, firstly firing an SSM against any country. Target country cannot know whether it is nuclear tipped or not. Therefore, target country is free to respond the way it perceives. Taking worst case scenario, nothing stops India retaliating with its IRBM. Will China take that chance? Secondly, conventionally tipped these SSMs are what I call ‘Non Return Fighter Aeroplane’. They are as costly as a fighter aeroplane carrying a 500 kg bomb (Su 30 carries 8 tons of bombs) and they are one time use only. Will a Chinese general press the button unless he is damn sure of the target? Will he fire against a target that can move (Like aeroplanes / army forces on ground)? Will he fire against a target on whom accurate intel is not available? All these making mountain out of a mole hill by arm chair enthusiasts can’t be far from reality. These doomsday chiliasts need to study more and look at things logically.

What will be the Outcome for China?

Answer to this question is quite simple, it will be a one long graveyard from Galwan to Kashgar and Lhasa. China cannot afford fighting with India in the area that it has shown its tentacles. Xi Jinping is being advised by Generals who do not know Air War. He is being led down the garden path by generals with ambition. If push comes to shove and if the war happens, I hope they commit massive force in this region for IAF to do target practice and decimate them even before it encounters our army.

(Group Captain MJA Vinod was in charge of operations for Northeast during his tenure as CATSPAW – Command Air Tasking And Strike Planning for Aerial Warfare – in Shillong, Meghalaya. He was also conferred with Vishisht Sewa Medal by the President of India for establishing CATSPAW. He served four tenures in Northeast from Sikkim sector to the Eastern most base. He is an MPhil and a PhD scholar in international relations and strategic studies. Views expressed are personal)


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Stratfor: The Nature of China's push along the Indian Border
« Reply #430 on: July 22, 2020, 05:00:02 AM »
The Nature of China's Military Push Along the Indian Border
Sim Tack
Sim Tack
Senior Global Analyst , Stratfor
5 MINS READ
Jul 22, 2020 | 10:00 GMT

After many years of infrastructure development and gradual encroachment, China is accelerating efforts to secure its military presence and access to water rights along the Indian border near Ladakh. But while it appears Beijing has largely achieved this objective for now, the harsh Himalayan winter could again escalate its standoff with India by challenging China's ability to maintain a presence throughout the disputed territory.


Since early May, over 10,000 Chinese troops have flooded into the disputed area on the Indian border, as Beijing seeks to secure its border claims and access to Himalayan water resources. Over the past year, Beijing likely construed a perception that India was attempting to reinforce its border claims in Ladakh by constructing roads and bridges near the Line of Actual Control. As is the case with many other Chinese territorial claims, such as those in Arunachal Pradesh or the South China Sea, China is also seeking to establish greater strategic depth around its borders. In Ladakh specifically, this means expanding control from the open plains of Xinjiang into the much more defensible Tibetan Plateau. The further China extends its reach into this mountainous area, the tougher the military challenge of threatening its western border becomes for Beijing's opponents. Controlling the source and course of rivers that run from Ladakh also provides a great deal of environmental security for China, as the Himilayan mountains in the region are an important source of water to the areas below them on either side.

Applying Military Strength With Restraint

China has advanced its territorial claims in various disputed border areas through a practice of offensive deterrence. In Ladakh, Beijing does not appear to desire an actual military confrontation with India. Indeed, China's recent deployment of additional forces to the region has yet to translate into a direct military offensive, even after the deadly June 15 skirmish with Indian troops and the occurrence of hand-to-hand combat in a number of other recent incidents at the Galwan Valley. The scale and scope of the Chinese military presence in Ladakh are instead intended to project the capability to rapidly engage in large scale military operations if China's actions are contested.

China is defending its claims in Ladakh through a significant logistical effort, shoring up its presence while further projecting Beijing's military strength into this complex terrain. Leading up to the latest escalation, both India and China had been steadily advancing their territorial claims in the area through the construction of roads and bridges. China, in particular, has spent years gradually constructing infrastructure in the border areas that hosts its military build-up.

Over the years, China has developed a much greater network of roads and support bases to provide so-called "lines of communication" between military units and their logistics or reinforcements) in Ladakh.

China has also emphasized enabling helicopter operations through the construction of landing pads and heliports in the Himalayan region. Helicopter operations, while difficult at Himalayan altitudes, will nonetheless help expand the capacity and redundancy of Beijing's logistical reach into this complex terrain.

Pushback from India following the June 15 border clash has prompted China to withdraw forces from several forward positions in Ladakh, though these limited drawdowns have so far had little impact on China's greater military advancement in the border region. In May, China removed the "no man's land" that had separated its forces from Indian troops since the two countries' border war in 1962. As evidenced by the latest bloody skirmish, this lack of separation has, in turn, led to a much more volatile situation on the border in recent months, and India's refusal to back off eventually resulted in negotiations to re-impose a minimal buffer zone in early July. Chinese forces, however, have not withdrawn from all of their most forward positions, just those most contentious ones at Galwan Valley, Hot Springs and Pangong Lake. But even in those areas, Chinese troops still maintain a significant presence just kilometers away from Indian positions, effectively upholding Beijing's deterrent.


Dramatic changes to operating conditions this winter, however, will present a major test to China's ability to uphold its deterrent capability in Ladakh year-round. China initially launched its military push into Ladakh in May, when the region's snow- and ice-covered valleys had just started to thaw. Though still extremely challenging terrain, the summer is by far the easiest season to maneuver these mountainous areas. But as winter begins to settle in November, the entire region will once again be covered in deep snow, which will make a continued build-up of both Chinese infrastructure and troops in Ladakh difficult. Beijing may be planning to carve out several positions in the region for its troops to wait out the winter months, though freezing temperatures, icy roads and reduced visibility due to snow will still severely limit China's ability to resupply or reinforce these troops via ground or helicopter operations. This, in turn, may provide India with opportunities to exploit reduced Chinese mobility during the winter or heading into spring

ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #431 on: August 02, 2020, 06:08:03 AM »
Looks like a short war is in the books...
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/china-refusing-to-even-discuss-pangong-tso-standoff-in-talks-1707014-2020-08-02

China refusing to even discuss Pangong Tso standoff in disengagement talks
India Today TV has learned that the Chinese reluctance that emerged in the fourth round of talks on June 14-15 has escalated now into an all-out refusal to even acknowledge the Pangong Tso situation as a friction point.

Shiv Aroor
New Delhi
August 2, 2020UPDATED: August 2, 2020 15:35 IST
 
China is practically refusing to discuss the standoff in Pangong Tso, with the deadlock in this friction point now deteriorating because of China simply dismissing it as a talking point. India Today TV has learned that the Chinese reluctance that emerged in the fourth round of talks on June 14-15 has escalated now into an all-out refusal to even acknowledge the Pangong Tso situation as a friction point.

China's new stance on the Pangong Tso Finger complex stand-off assumes significance considering the Chinese Army has implemented discussed disengagement protocols in full at the Galwan Valley's Patrol Point 14 and Patrol Point 15 in the Hot Springs sector just south.

Disengagement at Patrol Point 17A at the restive Gogra Post has slowed but it is China's Pangong deployment that has been of chief concern to India so far.

China's stubbornness at the talks table in even acknowledging Pangong as a friction point between the two countries is the most explicit affirmation of China's clear intent to change the lines of the pre-May status quo. The new intransigence ties in with two developments the past week.

One, the Chinese Ambassador's claim that disengagement was complete and that China was at its line in the Pangong Finger complex -- a provocative signal that there would be no further pullback. As India Today TV has reported, China's huge deployment in the disputed stretch between Finger 4-8 had been overrun by Chinese positions starting early May, with very nominal changes now visible.


Two, India Today TV has reported that China has spent the last three weeks building up in-depth areas of Pangong and activating several supply bases in Aksai Chin, capable of rushing in troops for hostile action at short notice.

The Indian Army isn't taking China's reluctance to talk on Pangong lightly and has conveyed that there can be no forward movement without a comprehensive and detailed exchange on the current situation in the Finger complex.

Today's round of the talks, the fifth so far, between the Indian Army Leh Corps Commander, Lt Gen Harinder Singh, and his Chinese counterpart, Maj Gen Lin Liu, was confirmed late last evening by the Chinese side.

Yesterday, August 1, was the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Day. In a clear sign of a chill in relations since the standoff began in early May, the traditional ceremonial India-China border personnel meeting (BPM), which takes place on PLA Day at Chushul, did not happen yesterday.

Formal greetings were extended under the Eastern Command, but there was no traditional exchange of gifts -- both because of the novel coronavirus protocols as well as the steady downward slide in military relations in the past 90 days.

Army sources have told India Today TV that the reports of Chinese troops mobilising around Lipulekh and the central sector across the border from Uttarakhand are "false and untrue", though deployments are catering for any eventuality there as well.

Apart from the Pangong deadlock, the other major topic of discussion at Sunday's disengagement talks is the Depsang issue.

In late June, India Today TV had reported on how China was looking to open a fresh front in the Depsang-DBO sectors of northern Ladakh. While Depsang frictions have festered for years, and are not directly linked to the 2020 hostile actions by China in eastern Ladakh, the fact that things have escalated there have compelled India to add Depsang to the agenda.

In Depsang, China has mobilised in larger numbers than before and is continuing to mount temporary transgressions into the Indian territory with vehicles. This has happened for years, with Indian troops usually fending them off, but the transgressions have not only increased in number this year but also strength and duration.

In the past month, the Chinese Army, enjoying far better surveillance in the area than the Indian side, has kept pinpoint tabs on the Indian troop patrols.

When Indian troop teams move out on foot, the Chinese side immediately deploys vehicular convoys to intercept the patrols and block their paths. These collisions have acquired a rhythm of their own for nearly a decade, but there is marked aggression to how the Chinese are asserting the patrol blocks in the last month.

In the last round of talks, when India had raised the Depsang issue, the Chinese had pointed an expected finger back at India, accusing the Indian Army of sending patrol teams in Chinese-held territory. In simple terms, a slow-burn faceoff in the flatlands of Depsang has been scaled up in intensity this year.


The fifth round of talks is on at Chushul, and while it is seen as positive that the two sides are still engaging at Chushul-Moldo, there is an increasing view that the Lt Gen level talks have achieved the maximum that they can at their level.


ya

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Xi-tler, Hitler similarities, surprised how much similarity
« Reply #433 on: August 08, 2020, 10:37:23 AM »
Xi-tler, Hitler similarities, surprised how much similarity

https://youtu.be/-zPPD8lQSEk
« Last Edit: August 08, 2020, 11:14:00 AM by Crafty_Dog »

ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #434 on: August 09, 2020, 09:51:32 AM »
"A majority, 59 per cent, believe we should go to war with China, while 34 per cent say we should not. Seventy-two per cent believe India can actually win against China with only 19 per cent believing we can’t or that ‘it will end in a stalemate’."

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/nation/story/20200817-enemy-number-one-1708698-2020-08-08

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #435 on: August 09, 2020, 01:12:49 PM »
".A majority, 59 per cent, believe we should go to war with China, while 34 per cent say we should not. Seventy-two per cent believe India can actually win against China with only 19 per cent believing we can’t or that ‘it will end in a stalemate’."

 :-o

ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #436 on: August 17, 2020, 07:09:54 PM »
The India-China stand off has been 4 months now...both sides are preparing to stay put in the winter. During this period, India kept punishing China economically. Chinese have lost business and contracts in India. India meanwhile is trying to recover its strength from the China virus. Military preparations are going on full swing in India. On Aug 15, on India's independence day, Modi gave a speech which does not support a back down by India.

Future calibrated punishments planned for China:
- Huawei and ZTE ban
- India participates as QUAD member in naval war games

In the mean the LOC with Pak is super hot, Pak may foolishly try a small misadventure.

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Chinese Military Propaganda Video
« Reply #437 on: August 17, 2020, 07:17:21 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_qr-4AKM18

The PRC has things in motion.


The India-China stand off has been 4 months now...both sides are preparing to stay put in the winter. During this period, India kept punishing China economically. Chinese have lost business and contracts in India. India meanwhile is trying to recover its strength from the China virus. Military preparations are going on full swing in India. On Aug 15, on India's independence day, Modi gave a speech which does not support a back down by India.

Future calibrated punishments planned for China:
- Huawei and ZTE ban
- India participates as QUAD member in naval war games

In the mean the LOC with Pak is super hot, Pak may foolishly try a small misadventure.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2020, 10:18:26 PM by Crafty_Dog »

ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #438 on: August 18, 2020, 07:45:02 PM »
The Chinese make good videos, I give them that. :-)

In the meantime there are reports that some in CCP are unhappy with She Gin Ping...change happens slowly then suddenly

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/18/china-xi-jinping-facing-widespread-opposition-in-his-own-party-claims-insider

G M

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ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #440 on: August 21, 2020, 04:36:52 PM »
Not to be taken seriously. He is the most ignorant of Pak ministers..has made several moronic statements re:nukes in the past. This time " He said only Muslim's would survive such a nuclear showdown."

ya

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Chinese salami slicing
« Reply #441 on: August 23, 2020, 04:04:26 PM »
So China's strategy of salami slicing is to encroach inside Indian territory 3 steps and then go back 2 steps. Now again after the encroachment, China wants both sides to go back equally!. India refuses.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/india-rejects-chinas-suggestion-of-equidistant-disengagement-from-finger-area-in-ladakh/articleshow/77702782.cms
« Last Edit: August 23, 2020, 10:55:26 PM by Crafty_Dog »

ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #442 on: August 24, 2020, 05:25:49 PM »
Probably the first time, I am hearing the Indian Chief of Defense Staff, explicitly make a statement like this. Such language has been reserved for Pak.

"With diplomatic and military talks on resolving the military standoff between Indian and Chinese troops along the Line of Actual Control in Ladakh not making much headway, Chief of Defence Staff General Bipin Rawat Monday said India has “military options” available, but these will be used only if talks fail.

This is the first time that a senior military officer has spoken publicly on the “transgressions by the Chinese” and the option of military force to deal with the border crisis in Ladakh."

https://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-china-border-lac-dispute-talks-military-action-6568517/

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GPF: China digging in
« Reply #443 on: August 24, 2020, 11:52:55 PM »
Chinese moves concern India. According to Indian media, the People’s Liberation Army has been continuing numerous infrastructure projects – roads, bridges, camps and helipads – behind the front lines near the Galwan Valley, where Indian and Chinese troops had their first deadly clash in decades earlier this summer. Unnamed Indian military sources say the projects suggest China intends to stick around once the annual fighting season ends in the next few months. Even if that’s the case, which seems unlikely, it’s hard to see there being much of a real threat of a major Chinese move during the winter months – if ever.

Somewhat more concerning to India, satellite images suggest China is building at least one site for surface-to-air missiles in the disputed region. Additionally, China’s foothold in neighboring Nepal also appears to be growing, with the Survey Department of the Agriculture Ministry reporting that China is occupying pockets of land in seven districts along the China-Nepal border. More concerning to China than any Indian response in the Himalayas, meanwhile, is additional evidence that its assertiveness is pushing India to accelerate development of naval and air force infrastructure in the Andaman and Nicobar islands. Indian officials are also apparently worried that China might finally be succeeding in getting Thailand to build the Kra Canal at the mouth of the Strait of Malacca. The project has been and probably still is a pipe dream, but it’s worth watching to see if the latest push is different.

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US/Taiwan/India scenarios
« Reply #444 on: August 26, 2020, 11:47:05 AM »

ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #445 on: August 29, 2020, 11:41:09 AM »
China cannot do anything in Taiwan, as long as they are facing India at the border. India would likely attack. China cannot win this 2 front war. To attack Taiwan, they need a peaceful border with India.

ccp

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #446 on: August 29, 2020, 11:51:44 AM »
".China cannot do anything in Taiwan, as long as they are facing India at the border. India would likely attack. China cannot win this 2 front war. To attack Taiwan, they need a peaceful border with India."

wow this is quite a statement

Ya , what brings you to this conclusion

and do you think India would do this to protect Taiwan or just to take advantage of the situation?

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #447 on: August 29, 2020, 03:10:13 PM »
".China cannot do anything in Taiwan, as long as they are facing India at the border. India would likely attack. China cannot win this 2 front war. To attack Taiwan, they need a peaceful border with India."

wow this is quite a statement

Ya , what brings you to this conclusion

and do you think India would do this to protect Taiwan or just to take advantage of the situation?

I am interested in ya's view also.

My thoughts:
IF China opens aggression on any front (Taiwan in this case), they should be attacked back on all fronts. In that scenario, it would be great if India uses the timing for the advantage on both fronts.

In the scenario posed recently, China starts its attack on Taiwan by striking US bases.  If so, doesn't that mean all US allies worldwide join in. (Do we have allies?)

US response needs to be disproportionate.  Attack Chinese military targets, as many as possible, not limited to Taiwan area. Attack from India.  Wipe out their new construction in the South China Sea.  Call for regime change.

Deterrence:  If they expect all of this, none of it will be necessary.

ya

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #448 on: August 29, 2020, 04:21:36 PM »
India will almost certainly (near 100%, IMHO) take advantage of the situation, if Taiwan benefits that would be great. India has for decades faced the threat of a two front war with Pak and China ganging up together as they are doing right now, and prepared for it (however imperfectly). Missing such an opportunity would be the biggest strategic blunder! and the current Modi govt is unlikely to let such an opportunity go by.

Infact my guess is India would not directly attack China but make a dash for Gilgit Baltistan and POK through which passes the CPEC. China will be in no position to defend Pak or get involved to save CPEC, nor do they have any legal rights in the matter. Once Gilgit-Baltistan is taken back, China's border access with Pak ends and China will agree to demarcate border between India and China. At that point Aksai Chin captured by China in the 1962 war and the few sq miles of current border issues will be renegotiated, perhaps exchanged in lieu of Mount Kailash and Lake Mansarovar which are hindu pilgrimage sites (abode of Lord Shiva per mythology). China needs Aksai Chin as an important highway G219 passes through it, for India that is just barren land and would be happy to take Mt.Kailash and Mansarovar instead.

China is aware that they could lose access to CPEC roads through POK which lead to Gwadar port (Pak) and have recently made alternate arrangements with Iran (40 billion investment) to have access to Chabahar port (Iraq) for warm water access. It is the official stated position of the BJP govt to take back POK/Gilgit-Baltistan soon.

As much as I wish that China will make a grab for Taiwan (and fail), it wont happen. Per the Indian news channels, China is being given a face saver to withdraw with their dignity intact. Many in the west have not given much attention to the Indian Chief of Defense Staff's statement, that if diplomacy with China will not work, military options are on the table. Indian military generals are very careful and never make such direct statements or empty threats. 6 Army Cmdr level talks, as well as several Foreign Secretary level talks have failed. Patience is running thin.

Based on the above thinking, China cannot attack Taiwan, unless they plan to remain a bystander while India takes back Gilgit/Baltistan. So yes, attacking Taiwan runs the risk of a difficult war, or at the very least loss of CPEC and access to POK.

China is $crewed, with whats going in the world and asia-pacific, not everyone appreciates this. Huawei is being rejected world wide, supply chains are being re-directed, new alliances are being formed. This megalomania of Xi has been very expensive and premature for the Chinese.

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Re: India/Indian Ocean (and India-afpakia and India-China)
« Reply #449 on: August 29, 2020, 04:29:39 PM »
I doubt the PLA has the capacity to handle a hot war with India on it's border and a hot war with the US/Taiwan/Japan and others. Vietnam could get some payback pushing into the southern Chinese provinces just to tie down additional PLA resources.


".China cannot do anything in Taiwan, as long as they are facing India at the border. India would likely attack. China cannot win this 2 front war. To attack Taiwan, they need a peaceful border with India."

wow this is quite a statement

Ya , what brings you to this conclusion

and do you think India would do this to protect Taiwan or just to take advantage of the situation?

I am interested in ya's view also.

My thoughts:
IF China opens aggression on any front (Taiwan in this case), they should be attacked back on all fronts. In that scenario, it would be great if India uses the timing for the advantage on both fronts.

In the scenario posed recently, China starts its attack on Taiwan by striking US bases.  If so, doesn't that mean all US allies worldwide join in. (Do we have allies?)

US response needs to be disproportionate.  Attack Chinese military targets, as many as possible, not limited to Taiwan area. Attack from India.  Wipe out their new construction in the South China Sea.  Call for regime change.

Deterrence:  If they expect all of this, none of it will be necessary.