Author Topic: Ukraine  (Read 223394 times)

Crafty_Dog

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Soviet-Ukraine history
« Reply #400 on: February 28, 2022, 03:55:22 AM »
third

Unfamiliar with source:
==================================
The outcome of the Soviet rule in Ukraine

Soviet Ukraine was born in late 1917, existed briefly in 1918, and re-emerged in 1919. On 30 December 1922, it joined the USSR as the Ukrainian Socialist Soviet Republic, but before that, the communists had clashed for power and territory with, among others, Ukrainian People’s Republic, General Denikin, German-sponsored Second Hetmanate, and again UPR, allied with Poland. Only after the 1921 Treaty of Riga did they consolidate their rule over the bulk of Ukraine – and this part, compared to the regions that ended up within Polish, Czech or Romanian borders, drew the shorter straw.

Ukraine joined the Soviet Union just as its war communism – extreme centralization of power and total control of production by the state – was making way for Lenin’s New Economic Policy. Seeing how the previous doctrine had ruined the state and, combined with drought, brought about the 1921-1922 famine that killed milions (including hundreds of thousands Ukrainians), the Bolsheviks decided to introduce a temporary measure of free market, at least in agriculture. From 1922, the Soviet republics, Ukraine included, began slow recovery.

In early and mid-1920s, the communists, trying to strengthen their power, also allowed national aspirations of the Union’s peoples to surface, and even fostered local cultures. At the same time, they were preparing to transform the agricultural economy into an industrialized one. In 1928, Stalin ended NEP with his first five-year plan and speeded up industrialization. Shortly thereafter, in 1929, the countryside was hit with collectivization, which aimed at turning peasants, land owners, into forced laborers of the state, slaving away on their nationalized land.

The whole of USSR saw revolts against the new policy, slaughtering of farm animals and destruction of machines, but the Ukrainian dissent was the most pronounced. Stalin, who remembered the UPR, decided to break this "Ukrainian nationalism" with dekulakization – mass murder and deportation campaign – plus the increase in food quotas to be delivered and confiscation of any surplus. The result was one of the worst famines in the history of mankind, engineered starvation of four to seven milion people on fertile Ukrainian soil, a Soviet plan that crippled Ukrainian peasantry.

The peasantry were historically the base of culture and traditions, both closely linked to religion and the local Orthodox Church – which from early 1930s was hit by severe repressions as well. There was more: parallel to the famine, Ukrainian party leaders, ten years before encouraged by Lenin to promote Ukrainization, were purged, and to sideline the remnants, the capital was moved from Kharkiv to Kiyv. Sovietization replaced Ukrainization: Ukrainian cultural institutions and newspapers were shut down, the language marginalized, the people harassed.
The famine was a major blow aimed to cut Ukrainian national identity at the knees through the decimation of the peasant class, and another one was an attack on intelligentsia, which, in Stalin’s opinion, was leaning too much toward the West: in late 1920s, only 20% of books in Ukraine were translations of Russian writers, while the rest were penned by local authors or translated from western languages. From 1933, places like the Slovo Building in Kharkiv, a haven of Ukrainian intellectual activity, would not be permitted to last and its members to live.

And in this organized assault on the very idea of Ukraine, thousands of leading Ukrainian authors, journalists, artists and educators found themselves persecuted, imprisoned and usually executed. A great number ended up in the Solovki camp, but not for long: on 3 November 1937 in Sandarmokh, NKVD officer Matveyev, his only education being two years of elementary school, made poet and translator of Horace Mykola Zerov lie facedown in a shallow grave and shot him in the back of the head, and with him, hundreds of other members of the "Executed Renaissance."

Then, the 1937-1938 Great Terror purged the CP(B)U, the communist party, and NKVD members in Ukraine, while famous Order no. 00447 ("Concerning the punishment of former kulaks, criminals and other anti-Soviet elements") gave the security services quotas of people to persecute and execute, and the NKVD troikas a carte blanche to persecute and execute anyone they wanted. Such policy removed yet more thousands of Ukrainians – either from the face of the earth or into Siberian labor camps, and the vast majority were victims of blanket terror, not purges.

After WWII, the reign of Soviet terror returned, first under Khruschev, since 1938 the First Secretary of the CP(B)U, then under Melnikov. Post-war repression campaign was mostly of anticosmopolitan nature because it targeted people suspected of disloyalty or infecting the Soviet society with western influences: real or alleged Nazi collaborators, as well as former POWs and forced laborers returning home. This period also saw a renewed attack on intelligentsia; survivors of the 1930s slaughter, allowed to foster patriotic sentiments in WWII, were in late 1940s accused of "Ukrainian nationalism" and persecuted.

By the time Stalin died in 1953 and Khruschev delivered his "On the Cult of Personality and Its Consequences" speech in 1956, Ukraine lost yet more hundreds of thousands people – deported, imprisoned and executed. The Khruschev thaw began the last three and a half decades of Ukraine in the Soviet Union – slow revival of culture and returning Russification, as well as the birth of dissident movements and resulting repressions from Moscow-controlled security apparatus, all this against the background of gradually deteriorating economy.
After the first three and a half decades, which cut the population of Ukraine by almost a third and its elites by four-fifths – the other three and a half were, at best, only lesser evil. The history of Soviet Ukraine is seven decades or repressions, planned genocide and countless human tragedies.

Ministerstwo Spraw Zagranicznych Polish Foreign Ministry



DougMacG

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Warning Mocked, Putin might invade Ukraine if Obama Biden win, 2008
« Reply #403 on: February 28, 2022, 11:23:00 AM »
https://foreignpolicy.com/2008/10/22/russia-might-invade-ukraine-if-obama-wins-palin-warns/

"After the Russian Army invaded the nation of Georgia, Senator Obama’s reaction was one of indecision and moral equivalence, the kind of response that would only encourage Russia’s Putin to invade Ukraine next."

Foreign Policy magazine:  "This is a very far-fetched scenario."

Crafty_Dog

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« Last Edit: March 01, 2022, 12:10:43 PM by Crafty_Dog »




ccp

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some good thoughts
« Reply #410 on: March 01, 2022, 04:22:53 PM »
to keep in mind as we had into tonights propaganda speech

I never thought I would have so little trust in my own government as I do
the past 30 yrs

far more BS always with Dems in power
https://www.nationalreview.com/2022/03/beware-wishful-thinking-in-evaluating-the-ukraine-crisis/

DougMacG

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Re: some good thoughts, SOTU
« Reply #411 on: March 01, 2022, 05:36:17 PM »
I'm glad we're discussing it here, but I don't see or hear anyone here in my real world aware or admitting they care what the President of the United State* has to say tonight.

Frankly I doubt Putin will watch.
----------------------
PBS Commentator:  This speech is supposed to be a victory lap for a President completing his firt year in office.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2022, 06:08:47 PM by DougMacG »


Crafty_Dog

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Crafty_Dog

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GPF
« Reply #414 on: March 02, 2022, 07:51:19 AM »
third

March 2, 2022
View On Website
Open as PDF

    
Daily Memo: Western Firms Exit Russia, More EU Sanctions on Belarus
Several global businesses have decided to pull out of their operations in Russia
By: Geopolitical Futures
State of the Russian economy. The ruble exchange rate reached record lows – 122 rubles to the euro and 109 rubles to the dollar – on Wednesday. This comes as a number of international companies have decided to halt operations in Russia. The Ford Sollers auto plant in Tatarstan suspended its operations, and Honda and Mazda stopped deliveries of cars and components to Russia. German carmaker BMW announced on Tuesday that it stopped exporting vehicles to Russia and that it would halt production at an assembly plant in Kaliningrad. ExxonMobil said it will not invest in new developments with Russia. (Relatedly, oil prices reached a seven-year high on Wednesday, trading at roughly $110 per barrel.) Apple, meanwhile, suspended sales at its Russian stores.

No access. Several countries have started blocking port access to Russian vessels. The U.K. government passed a law banning Russian-linked ships, which include Russian-flagged vessels as well as those owned and operated by firms with Russian interests, from British ports. The Canadian government also announced it would close access to Russian-owned ships. And Malaysia’s Transport Ministry denied port entry for a Russian-flagged oil tanker included on a U.S. sanctions list that was set to arrive at Kuala Linggi International Port on March 5.

Sanctions on Belarus. The French presidency of the EU said the bloc’s diplomats approved new sanctions against Belarus for its involvement in Russia's invasion of Ukraine. The package will target Belarusian officials, the military and the economic sector, particularly the wood, steel and potash industries. The decision comes after Britain imposed similar sanctions against Belarus targeting Belarus’ chief of the General Staff and two military enterprises.

More drones for Ukraine. Ukraine’s Defense Ministry announced on Wednesday that it received more Bayraktat TB2s, the Turkish-made combat unmanned aerial vehicle. Its defense minister said the drones were already in combat position.

Support for Taiwan. A delegation of former U.S. defense and security officials arrived in Taiwan on Wednesday and met with the island’s president, Tsai Ing-wen. China condemned the visit.

Turkish-Kyrgyz relations. The defense ministers of Turkey and Kyrgyzstan met in Ankara to discuss regional issues and bilateral relations. They signed a roadmap for cooperation on military and military-technical matters. Meanwhile, Turkey’s Foreign Ministry marked the 30th anniversary of diplomatic relations with Kazakhstan by saying it would continue to support the stability and prosperity of the country.

ya

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #415 on: March 03, 2022, 05:11:34 AM »

G M

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #416 on: March 03, 2022, 05:44:30 AM »
Nice read on ZH...thought provoking

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/luongo-opening-salvos-thrown-what-are-putins-next-steps-ukraine

Good article. As I posted elsewhere, the western idiots in charge haven't anticipated the second and third order effects of what they are doing.

ccp

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #417 on: March 03, 2022, 06:24:37 AM »
I like how he uses "Davos " to describe the globalists elites

NATO is supposed to be a deterrent but it also keeps increasing our risk of getting into war
 with every new nation entry

I don't care about Europe : let the Western Europeans deal with it.  We keep having to bale them out.

The real problem  is China IMHO

G M

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #418 on: March 03, 2022, 06:42:10 AM »
I like how he uses "Davos " to describe the globalists elites

NATO is supposed to be a deterrent but it also keeps increasing our risk of getting into war
 with every new nation entry

I don't care about Europe : let the Western Europeans deal with it.  We keep having to bale them out.

The real problem  is China IMHO

Exactly.

All the virtue-signaling idiots posting Ukrainian flags on their social media accounts and pouring out Russian vodka will drive to most any retail store and mindlessly buy PRC products.

DougMacG

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #419 on: March 03, 2022, 07:59:21 AM »
"NATO is supposed to be a deterrent but it also keeps increasing our risk of getting into war
 with every new nation entry."

   -I don't agree with the moral equivalence of threatening your neighbors versus wanting to protect them, or the idea Putin is the victim.

"I don't care about Europe : let the Western Europeans deal with it.  We keep having to bale them out."

   - See excerpt below* of similar sentiment in a previous time.

"The real problem is China IMHO"

   - The biggest problem is China, but we don't have just one problem or threat, and coincidentally, China is siding with Russia.


  *  Wikipedia, opposition to WWII:  " ... the Mothers' movement led by Elizabeth Dilling, also opposed World War II on the basis that it would be preferable for Nazism rather than Communism to dominate Europe.[13] These women also wished to keep their own sons out of the combat US involvement in the war would necessitate, and believed the war would destroy Christianity and further spread atheistic Communism across Europe.

Henry Ford also opposed US participation in the war until the attack on Pearl Harbor and refused to manufacture airplanes and other war equipment for the British.[14] Father Charles Coughlin urged the US to keep out of the war and permit Germany to conquer Great Britain and the Soviet Union.[15] Asked Coughlin, "Must the entire world go to war for 600,000 Jews in Germany?"[16]

Isolationism was strongest in the United States, where oceans separated it on both sides from the war fronts. The German-American Bund even marched down the avenues of New York City demanding isolationism. The isolationists, led by the America First Committee, were a large, vocal, and powerful challenge to President Roosevelt's efforts to enter the war. Charles Lindbergh was perhaps the most famous isolationist. Isolationism was strongest in the Midwest with its strong German-American population.

In the US, organizations like the American Peace Mobilization and veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade protested in opposition to the war, conscription, and the Lend-Lease Act. They said of Lend-Lease, "Roosevelt needs its dictatorial powers to further his aim of carving out of a warring world, the American Empire so long desired by the Wall Street money lords."[17] Students at UC Berkeley in 1940 led a large protest in opposition to the war.[18] "     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_World_War_II


[Doug]  Our support for NATO and Europe is partly out of the good of our heat but mostly IMHO about stopping enemy attacks before they pick up unstoppable momentum and attack us here.

From the above:  "Father Charles Coughlin urged the US to keep out of the war and permit Germany to conquer Great Britain and the Soviet Union.[15] Asked Coughlin, "Must the entire world go to war for 600,000 Jews in Germany?"[16]

   - It's not okay to let them conquer Great Britain or even the Soviet Union.  It wasn't 600,000 Jews; it was more like 6 million killed even with victory for the allies, and they weren't stopping there.  They were coming to the US next from both sides IMHO. 

As with now, the threat isn't just in Ukraine or just Europe, all here acknowledge China is watching closely and plans to take Taiwan when the time is right for them.  Will letting Taiwan go also make us safer?  Ukraine is Russia's last conquest.  Taiwan is China's last conquest.  [Czechoslovakia was Hitler's last conquest?]  Then they will all be satisfied and live in tyranny um peace?  If so, then why is china militarizing islands all the way up and down the South China Sea, expanding their control in Africa, Asia, South America and in the US?

The lesson I take from WWII is stop evil sooner, before it gains territory, resources, momentum and confidence.  Also the treatment (genocide) of the Jews was symptom of the evil, not the entire problem.  This time it's only Ukraine?  Oops, only Ukraine and the Baltics?  Only Ukraine, the Baltics and central Asia?  Denying or ignoring the scope of the evil for as long as we could was not the best course (in WWII) IMHO.  Does that apply here?

Crafty_Dog

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DougMacG

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Re: Ukraine, energy
« Reply #421 on: March 03, 2022, 08:36:33 AM »
The news from the US Putin was reading before ordering the invasion:

Biden pauses new oil and gas leases amid legal battle over cost of climate change
PUBLISHED THU, FEB 24 2022
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/24/biden-administration-pausing-new-oil-and-gas-leases-amid-legal-battle-.html

You don't have to think Putin is  genius to think he is smarter than our leadership.

G M

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Re: Ukraine, energy
« Reply #422 on: March 03, 2022, 09:38:21 AM »
The news from the US Putin was reading before ordering the invasion:

Biden pauses new oil and gas leases amid legal battle over cost of climate change
PUBLISHED THU, FEB 24 2022
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/24/biden-administration-pausing-new-oil-and-gas-leases-amid-legal-battle-.html

You don't have to think Putin is  genius to think he is smarter than our leadership.

It’s a low bar.

Here is our historic VP explaining current events:

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/03/kamala-harris-explains-ukraine-russia-conflict-black-radio-host-ukraine-country-europe-exists-next-another-country-called-russia-russia-bigger-country-audio/

ccp

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #423 on: March 03, 2022, 09:57:16 AM »
"I don't care about Europe : let the Western Europeans deal with it.  We keep having to bale them out."

   - See excerpt below* of similar sentiment in a previous time.

https://www.google.com/search?q=gdp+russia&oq=gdp+russia&aqs=chrome..69i57.3473j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

VERSUS

https://www.google.com/search?q=gdp+eu&oq=gdp+eu&aqs=chrome..69i57.1928j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

+

https://www.google.com/search?q=GDP+GB&oq=GDP+GB&aqs=chrome..69i57.3861j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

This is why they should be handling on their own
maybe weapons support
from us

we spoiled them too much


DougMacG

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Ukraine, Podcast, Col Austin Bay with Steve Hayward Powerline
« Reply #424 on: March 03, 2022, 11:07:19 AM »
I think we need a podcast page, (with ours first).

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2022/03/podcast-a-sit-rep-on-ukraine-with-col-austin-bay.php

Worth your time, 40 minutes.  Nothing particularly new, just solid perspective.  I think I will listen a second time to pull facts and quotes out of it.

ccp

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #425 on: March 03, 2022, 02:27:32 PM »
"Worth your time, 40 minutes.  Nothing particularly new, just solid perspective"

I will listen
that said I keep turning on TV or internet

and I hear how

"we must do more to help Ukraine"

besides drill drill drill for oil here ( which ain't going to happen till hopefully '24)

what the hell are we supposed to do
I don't want Americans going there
if some US fools want to fly over and risk their lives
 as though a few hundred or thousand of them is going to make a damn bit of difference
on the other side of the world - be my guest

the news is endless pundits screaming and pounding tables
we must do more!!!!

it is over

it is done

we can escalate with more force

only

endless calls for "sanctions".

everyone of these arm chair experts sounds so silly to me

I guess I am the only one not jumping on the bandwagon chorus in the world

Europe needs to step up more load up forces in NATO countries and *sit tight*
and hold the line
Ukraine is NOT NATO

suddenly this is the most ground shaking event in the last 70 yrs....


then only advantage to me by doing "more" whatever that means is to set an example for the CCP who are of course studying this .

otherwise , while very sad , I don't care about Ukraines
my ancestors came here well over 100 yrs ago......

 




DougMacG

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Ukraine Russia talks: create safe corridors
« Reply #426 on: March 03, 2022, 04:09:10 PM »
Ukraine Russia talks: create safe corridors



44 million people free to leave.  What could go wrong.


Crafty_Dog

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Serious discussion from 2014
« Reply #428 on: March 03, 2022, 09:11:31 PM »

G M

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G M

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G M

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #433 on: March 04, 2022, 07:48:34 AM »
You forgot other historic Americans that warned us against getting caught up in conflicts in other parts of the world:

https://usa.usembassy.de/etexts/democrac/49.htm

The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop.

Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people, under an efficient government, the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.

Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor, or caprice?

It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world, so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it, for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But in my opinion it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies.

Harmony, liberal intercourse with all nations are recommended by policy, humanity, and interest. But even our commercial policy should hold an equal and impartial hand, neither seeking nor granting exclusive favors or preferences; consulting the natural course of things; diffusing and diversifying by gentle means the streams of commerce, but forcing nothing; establishing with powers so disposed, in order to give trade a stable course, to define the rights of our merchants, and to enable the Government to support them, conventional rules of intercourse, the best that present circumstances and mutual opinion will permit, but temporary and liable to be from time to time abandoned or varied as experience and circumstances shall dictate; constantly keeping in view that it is folly in one nation to look for disinterested favors from another; that it must pay with a portion of its independence for whatever it may accept under that character; that by such acceptance it may place itself in the condition of having given equivalents for nominal favors, and yet of being reproached with ingratitude for not giving more. There can be no greater error than to expect or calculate upon real favors from nation to nation. It is an illusion which experience must cure, which a just pride ought to discard....



"NATO is supposed to be a deterrent but it also keeps increasing our risk of getting into war
 with every new nation entry."

   -I don't agree with the moral equivalence of threatening your neighbors versus wanting to protect them, or the idea Putin is the victim.

"I don't care about Europe : let the Western Europeans deal with it.  We keep having to bale them out."

   - See excerpt below* of similar sentiment in a previous time.

"The real problem is China IMHO"

   - The biggest problem is China, but we don't have just one problem or threat, and coincidentally, China is siding with Russia.


  *  Wikipedia, opposition to WWII:  " ... the Mothers' movement led by Elizabeth Dilling, also opposed World War II on the basis that it would be preferable for Nazism rather than Communism to dominate Europe.[13] These women also wished to keep their own sons out of the combat US involvement in the war would necessitate, and believed the war would destroy Christianity and further spread atheistic Communism across Europe.

Henry Ford also opposed US participation in the war until the attack on Pearl Harbor and refused to manufacture airplanes and other war equipment for the British.[14] Father Charles Coughlin urged the US to keep out of the war and permit Germany to conquer Great Britain and the Soviet Union.[15] Asked Coughlin, "Must the entire world go to war for 600,000 Jews in Germany?"[16]

Isolationism was strongest in the United States, where oceans separated it on both sides from the war fronts. The German-American Bund even marched down the avenues of New York City demanding isolationism. The isolationists, led by the America First Committee, were a large, vocal, and powerful challenge to President Roosevelt's efforts to enter the war. Charles Lindbergh was perhaps the most famous isolationist. Isolationism was strongest in the Midwest with its strong German-American population.

In the US, organizations like the American Peace Mobilization and veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade protested in opposition to the war, conscription, and the Lend-Lease Act. They said of Lend-Lease, "Roosevelt needs its dictatorial powers to further his aim of carving out of a warring world, the American Empire so long desired by the Wall Street money lords."[17] Students at UC Berkeley in 1940 led a large protest in opposition to the war.[18] "     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_World_War_II


[Doug]  Our support for NATO and Europe is partly out of the good of our heat but mostly IMHO about stopping enemy attacks before they pick up unstoppable momentum and attack us here.

From the above:  "Father Charles Coughlin urged the US to keep out of the war and permit Germany to conquer Great Britain and the Soviet Union.[15] Asked Coughlin, "Must the entire world go to war for 600,000 Jews in Germany?"[16]

   - It's not okay to let them conquer Great Britain or even the Soviet Union.  It wasn't 600,000 Jews; it was more like 6 million killed even with victory for the allies, and they weren't stopping there.  They were coming to the US next from both sides IMHO. 

As with now, the threat isn't just in Ukraine or just Europe, all here acknowledge China is watching closely and plans to take Taiwan when the time is right for them.  Will letting Taiwan go also make us safer?  Ukraine is Russia's last conquest.  Taiwan is China's last conquest.  [Czechoslovakia was Hitler's last conquest?]  Then they will all be satisfied and live in tyranny um peace?  If so, then why is china militarizing islands all the way up and down the South China Sea, expanding their control in Africa, Asia, South America and in the US?

The lesson I take from WWII is stop evil sooner, before it gains territory, resources, momentum and confidence.  Also the treatment (genocide) of the Jews was symptom of the evil, not the entire problem.  This time it's only Ukraine?  Oops, only Ukraine and the Baltics?  Only Ukraine, the Baltics and central Asia?  Denying or ignoring the scope of the evil for as long as we could was not the best course (in WWII) IMHO.  Does that apply here?

ccp

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JQ Adams
« Reply #434 on: March 04, 2022, 08:22:54 AM »
https://www.rd.com/list/presidents-with-the-highest-iq-scores/

I think this is good. Blinks took my advice from my post yesterday:


https://nypost.com/2022/03/04/us-embassy-gets-ahead-of-biden-calls-russia-nuke-plant-attack-war-crime/

defend NATO as signed up to do
but otherwise stay the hell out.
if Marc Levin wants to send more missiles and machine guns
go ahead
I agree more with Tucker here - I think - unless he changed his position
« Last Edit: March 04, 2022, 08:24:45 AM by ccp »

Crafty_Dog

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Defect!
« Reply #435 on: March 04, 2022, 03:14:25 PM »
How to Entice Russian Soldiers Out of Ukraine
Offer them refuge, at least until Putin is gone, if they surrender and defect.
By Peter H. Schuck
March 3, 2022 6:49 pm ET


Russia’s unprovoked invasion of Ukraine is already a humanitarian disaster. Although Vladimir Putin’s endgame is not yet clear, the West’s expressed refusal to place boots on the ground in Ukraine invites Russia to expand its long-shrunken empire. Mr. Putin views the whole of Ukraine as ripe for reconquest, while he must see Poland, the Baltics and other North Atlantic Treaty Organization enemies as vulnerable to nonmilitary subversion.

Short of committing troops, what can NATO do to weaken Mr. Putin’s hand? The coalition is already supplying Ukraine with war-fighting materiel and logistical and tactical assistance, denying airspace to Russia, and offering immediate refuge for displaced families. President Biden’s skillful orchestration of severe trade, currency, banking and other economic sanctions against Moscow and Russian oligarchs have created viselike pressures that will grow steadily more effective as economic panic takes hold in Russia. Even dictators like Mr. Putin must attend to domestic opposition to war, already evidenced by public protests and outrage over the number of Russian soldiers coming home in body bags. The key question is one of timing: Can these factors take full effect before Russia subjugates Ukraine?

Reports of low Russian military morale—bodies left on the battlefield, soldiers looting for food and other necessaries—suggest a tactic worth considering. NATO should announce that any Russian troops who defect will be granted temporary refuge in the West. A soldier could surrender to a Ukrainian military unit or government office or at a NATO country’s border crossing. He would be permitted to stay until Mr. Putin’s regime is overthrown, at which point he would have to return to Russia. In selected cases—perhaps when a defecting soldier can prove he would be persecuted by a post-Putin regime—he might apply for formal protection under the 1953 Refugee Convention, which usually leads to permanent residency. Human-rights violators and serious criminals would not qualify.

Such a scheme is likely to be effective because even a few initial defections can have a cascading effect, especially if other troops fear that the offer may be time-limited. The scheme would entail no risk to NATO forces (quite the contrary) and cost the NATO countries essentially nothing, particularly if the defectors are spread among them. In the U.S., the idea should have bipartisan political support; it both exploits the “soft power” that liberals claim America has forfeited and advances U.S. foreign-policy interests.

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Some might argue that such a policy would subordinate the U.S. refugee program to realpolitik, but that horse left the barn long ago. The Refugee Act of 1980 already incorporates geopolitical considerations, not only humanitarian ones. The president may exceed the statutory refugee quota if he determines that it is “in the national interest.” The quota is determined after annual consultation between the president and Congress and must analyze, among other factors, how refugee admissions will affect U.S. foreign-policy interests.

This need not be a slippery slope, increasing pressures to offer defectors refugee visas in other turbulent situations. The strategy should be used only on a case-by-case basis. In the area of foreign policy the force of precedent is at its weakest. Each foreign-policy crisis is unique and can readily be distinguished from others when there are good reasons to do so.

Using the relative attractiveness of life in the NATO states to weaken Mr. Putin’s ability to wage war would create a propaganda coup and a battlefield advantage.

Mr. Schuck is an emeritus professor at Yale Law School and a distinguished scholar in residence at New York University Law School.

Crafty_Dog

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ccp

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the only way to stop this is military
« Reply #437 on: March 05, 2022, 09:56:44 AM »
which is truly NUTS!

if Trump was President - we can argue if this would happen - but we would certainly be in nuclear war by now.

is my recipe for controlling escalation
send some guns  and food.
otherwise stay the hell out
 

protect the NATO nation and stop there

the other Balkan countries are on their own

(and screen which party the refugees favor - if they sign on dotted line to vote for R - bring em in  :-D

the world is dividing up between the US EU vs China Russia

India it seems would be more natural to be with us
but they sit right next to China Russia

if I am mistaken they abstained from voting in the UN

It would be good to have 1.5 billion Indians on our side

Africa will go to the highest bidder
and I don[t know S America would do.


ccp

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if Trump was Pres now
« Reply #438 on: March 05, 2022, 10:04:14 AM »
I have to admit a hot head like Trump
as President now

would have the top people shitting in their shorts
this would be their worst fear

I am not saying he would not do well
like keep us out
but I could see him ordering things and the military ignoring him......

G M

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Re: if Trump was Pres now
« Reply #439 on: March 05, 2022, 10:13:42 AM »
There would not a be Ukraine invasion, gas would be under three dollars but there would be the unspeakable horror of MEAN TWEETS!


I have to admit a hot head like Trump
as President now

would have the top people shitting in their shorts
this would be their worst fear

I am not saying he would not do well
like keep us out
but I could see him ordering things and the military ignoring him......


ccp

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #441 on: March 05, 2022, 10:41:19 AM »
"There would not a be Ukraine invasion, gas would be under three dollars but there would be the unspeakable horror of MEAN TWEETS!"

maybe on the first part maybe not
agree on second part

and I am not talking about "tweets" on the third
I am speaking of two gigantic egos duking it out with us as cannon fodder.

as for no fly zone of course it is an act of war
but. so are sanctions and
cyberattacks
so we are already in a "limited" war
but the brass seems go be doing a good job now not escalating
   





DougMacG

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #442 on: March 05, 2022, 11:45:36 AM »
Interesting that 4 mostly like-minded people here (seem to) have 4 different views on this.

Crafty_Dog

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Israel's Bennet mediating?
« Reply #443 on: March 05, 2022, 04:08:10 PM »
Israel’s Bennett Speaks With Putin, Zelensky Separately in Effort to Mediate Ukraine Crisis
Conversation with the Russian leader in Moscow touched on the safety of Ukraine’s Jewish population and international talks over Iran’s nuclear program

Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett has faced pressure domestically to boost support to Ukraine.
PHOTO: ABIR SULTAN/ASSOCIATED PRESS
By Thomas Grove
March 5, 2022 3:48 pm ET


TEL AVIV—Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett held talks with President Vladimir Putin Saturday in the Kremlin over Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, and then spoke with Ukrainian leader Volodymyr Zelensky, an attempt to mediate a conflict that has caused growing civilian casualties and refugees.

Before Mr. Bennett’s visit, diplomacy by President Biden and European leaders failed to stop Mr. Putin from invading Ukraine or rolling back his tanks. In the face of massive Western sanctions, Mr. Putin has found himself increasingly cut off from the world, with few avenues for diplomacy and with his country’s economy unplugged from much of global commerce.

Mr. Bennett’s meeting with Mr. Putin took place “with the blessing of the U.S. administration,” said Mr. Bennett’s office, which also noted that it coordinated with Germany and France. After seeing Mr. Putin, Mr. Bennett left Moscow for Berlin, where he will meet with German Chancellor Olaf Scholz, the prime minister’s office said. Mr. Bennett was joined by Housing Minister Zeev Elkin, who was born in the now Ukrainian city of Kharkiv and assisted with the translation.

The nearly three-hour conversation with Mr. Putin touched on the safety of Ukraine’s Jewish population and international talks over Iran’s nuclear program, Mr. Bennett’s office said. On Saturday, new demands from Russia—a party to the nuclear talks—threatened to derail efforts to restore the 2015 Iran nuclear deal, a pact that Israel opposes.


Mr. Bennett flew to Moscow as Russian troops continued to meet fierce resistance from Ukrainian forces, and an agreement to evacuate civilians from two besieged cities fell apart. Russia’s invasion of its smaller neighbor last week has caused civilian casualties and sparked the largest movement of people in Europe since World War II as Ukrainians flee the bloodshed.


The meeting comes about a week after Mr. Bennett, in a call with Mr. Putin, offered to mediate between Russia and Ukraine. Mr. Putin said during that call that he was “ready for negotiation,” a senior Israeli official said.

Throughout the Russia-Ukraine conflict, Israel has found itself caught between powerful opposing forces. Israel’s most important ally, the U.S., and pro-Western Ukraine, with a large Jewish population, have pushed Israel to side strongly with the Ukrainians. At the same time, Mr. Bennett’s government has worried that taking sides would jeopardize its relationship with Russia, which allows Israel the freedom to bomb Iranian positions in Syria.

Mr. Bennett has faced pressure domestically to boost support to Ukraine. Israel has so far refused a Ukrainian request for weapons and other military equipment, such as helmets and protective vests, Ukraine’s ambassador, Yevgen Korniychuk, said earlier this week. But Israel has condemned Russia’s invasion and voted for a United Nations resolution demanding an end to the offensive.

Mr. Bennett, an observant Jew, flew to Moscow during the Sabbath, underlining the urgent nature of his mission.

Israel has worked to maintain good relations with the Kremlin and has been keen not to anger Moscow during the conflict. Russia’s launch of a military intervention in Syria in 2015 turned it into an important player in the Middle East. Israel sees Russia’s presence there as a moderating influence among Islamist militant organizations such as Hezbollah and Iran’s increasingly aggressive stance.

Mr. Putin’s stated aim of his invasion and decapitation of the Ukrainian government is denazification of the country, despite Mr. Zelensky’s Jewish origins. Since Russia struck a television tower earlier this week in Kyiv’s Babyn Yar area, the site of one of the worst massacres during the Holocaust, international Jewish condemnation of Russia’s invasion has grown.

« Last Edit: March 05, 2022, 04:16:50 PM by Crafty_Dog »

ya

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #444 on: March 06, 2022, 08:38:46 AM »
India gets a lot of hate, for staying Neutral. Here's the other side, that India see's but the west forgets.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1500485014705770499

ya

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #445 on: March 06, 2022, 09:20:16 AM »
« Last Edit: March 06, 2022, 09:22:19 AM by ya »


Crafty_Dog

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #447 on: March 06, 2022, 09:28:34 AM »
Responding to the map near the beginning in the Indian clip shared by YA:

It takes as the STARTING POINT of NATO expansion east the Soviet CONQUEST of East Europe-- AS ORIGINALLY ENVISIONED BY STALIN WHEN HE SIGNED THE RIBBENTROP AGREEMENT, and overall the simple profound fact is that NATO existed to defend against the Warsaw Pact conquering ALL of Europe.

I'm completely down for respecting a reasonable Monroe space for Russia (though this may not be possible at this point) but , , , 

ccp

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DougMacG

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Re: some thoughtful points by Pat Buchanan
« Reply #449 on: March 06, 2022, 12:38:57 PM »
yes he still lives:
https://buchanan.org/blog/did-we-provoke-putins-war-in-ukraine-159120

From the article:
"Putin is a Russian nationalist, patriot, traditionalist and a cold and ruthless realist looking out to preserve Russia as the great and respected power it once was and he believes it can be again."

No.  It's not that he's trying to preserve Russia which no one is threatening, he's trying to reconstitute the Soviet Union by threatening and invading sovereign neighbors.

NATO is a defensive alliance.  Putin, Russia [Soviet] operation is the aggressor that places like Ukraine are trying to protect against.  Putin can spin that some other way, of course, he's the guy who sent in "peacekeeping" forces to carpet bomb the place.

We've gone from you can't say Putin is an (evil) genius to calling Putin the victim here.  Putin isn't murdering millions like Stalin, no he's oppressing greater than a hundred million - who would be murdered if they, for example, spoke truth aloud.

Interestingly, he crossed the border into a sovereign country and is murdering people indiscriminately now.  Our bad?

Why is there still a NATO everyone over there wants to join?  Because Russia is still a threat.