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Crafty_Dog

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FA: The Case for Total Uke Victory
« Reply #951 on: October 12, 2022, 09:07:40 AM »


Ukraine’s Path to Victory
How the Country Can Take Back All Its Territory
By Andriy Zagorodnyuk
October 12, 2022
Page url
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/ukraines-path-victory



For too long, the global democratic coalition supporting Kyiv has focused on what it should not do in the invasion of Ukraine. Its main aims include not letting Ukraine lose and not letting Russian President Vladimir Putin win—but also not allowing the war to escalate to a point where Russia attacks a NATO country or conducts a nuclear strike. These, however, are less goals than vague intentions, and they reflect the West’s deep confusion about how the conflict should end. More than seven months into the war, the United States and Europe still lack a positive vision for Ukraine’s future.

The West clearly believes that Kyiv’s fight is just, and it wants Ukraine to succeed. But it is not sure yet whether Ukraine is strong enough to retake all its territory. Many Western leaders still believe that the Russian military is too large to be defeated. This thinking has led the members of the pro-Ukrainian coalition to define only their interim strategic military goals. They have not plotted out the political consequences that would come from a complete Russian military collapse.

It is time to start: Ukraine can win big. The country has proved again and again that it is capable of routing Russia. It first did so by preventing Russia from seizing Kyiv, Kharkiv, Chernihiv, Sumy, and the Black Sea coastline. It succeeded again by halting Russia’s concentrated offensive in the Donbas, the eastern Ukrainian region comprising Donetsk and Luhansk Provinces, part of which Russia has occupied since 2014. Most recently, Ukraine retook Kharkiv Province in less than a week, broke through Russia’s defensive lines in the south, and began liberating parts of the east.

The West must join Kyiv in aiming for an unequivocal Ukrainian victory. It should recognize that Ukraine’s military is not just more motivated than Russia’s but also better led and better trained. To win, Ukraine doesn’t need a miracle; it just needs the West to increase its supply of sophisticated weaponry. Ukrainian forces can then move deeper and faster into enemy lines and overrun more of Russia’s disorganized troops. Putin may respond by calling up additional soldiers, but poorly motivated forces can only delay a well-equipped Ukraine’s eventual triumph. Putin will then be out of conventional tools to forestall losing.

Outside analysts worry that before facing defeat, Putin would try to inflict massive civilian casualties on Ukraine, seeking to coerce the Ukrainian government into making concessions or even into surrendering. He might do so, Western analysts fear, by continuously targeting densely populated areas in Ukrainian cities with long-range missiles—as he has done this week—or through carpet-bombing raids. But Putin lacks the resources to truly level Ukrainian cities. Russia’s remaining inventory of conventional missiles and bombs is large enough to cause substantial damage, but it is not big enough to destroy swaths of Ukraine. And Ukraine has already proved that it will fight on even when Russia reduces cities to rubble. Putin destroyed Mariupol, ruined large parts of Kharkiv, and launched thousands of strikes on other cities and regions. The damage just made Ukrainians more committed to victory and closed off chances for negotiated settlements.

Many Westerners also fear that Putin might act on his threats to use nuclear weapons. But the West can intimidate Putin in ways that will deter him from seriously contemplating such an attack, and a nuclear strike might turn all global powers, not just the United States and Europe, against him. It is ultimately unlikely that Putin will go nuclear. But if he does, the West must make sure that his plan backfires.

As Ukraine’s counteroffensive advances against an increasingly cornered Putin, it should mainly focus on liberating territory that Russia has seized since February 24. But a full Ukrainian victory also entails freeing the parts of the country that Russia has occupied since 2014, which includes Crimea. It means that Ukraine must reclaim its territorial waters and exclusive economic zones in the Black Sea and Azov Sea, without any compromises or conditions.

Russia’s president has increasingly staked his regime on conquering Ukraine, sacrificing his country’s economic growth and international reputation in the process. Such a broad defeat could well push Russian elites to remove him from power. Indeed, as the mass of Putin’s failures and Ukraine’s achievements grows, Putin’s fall may become inevitable. This scares certain leaders, who worry that a power struggle in Russia will breed dangerous instability. But it’s hard to imagine a Russia more dangerous than the one led by Putin, given all the havoc he has wreaked—in Ukraine and throughout the world. The international community should welcome his departure.

ADVANTAGE, UKRAINE

Many Western observers believe that Ukraine will have to cede territory to Russia if it wants peace. They are wrong; territorial gains will only embolden the Kremlin. Putin decided to attack eastern Ukraine in 2014 because he succeeded in occupying Crimea. He invaded the entire country because he managed to establish proxy puppet regimes in the Donbas. Partial success simply motivates Putin to continue his campaigns and seize more territory. The only way to stop the war and to deter future aggression is for the invasion to end with an unequivocal Russian failure.

Winning everywhere might seem overly ambitious, and it certainly won’t be easy. But it is far more possible than most outside observers realize. Ukraine, after all, has repeatedly outperformed international expectations. In the opening weeks of the war, the country stopped Russia’s blitzkrieg against the capital and then forced Moscow to retreat. Putin responded to this defeat by declaring that he would regroup and focus on conquering the Donbas, which is filled with the kind of open fields that favor Russia and its heavy artillery. And yet Ukraine steadily wore Russia down, making it pay for every tract of land with massive casualties. Eventually, Russia was forced to halt.

Ukrainians have also proved that they can make Russia not just retreat but run. Ukraine’s lightning offense across Kharkiv in late September prevented Russia from even trying to annex the province. Its early October victory in Lyman has made Russia’s position in the Donbas deeply uncertain. Ukraine is now even liberating villages in adjoining Luhansk, the only Ukrainian province that Russia entirely seized after February 24. And Ukrainian soldiers are moving closer to Kherson, the first major city that Russia seized in its 2022 offensive.


Ukraine has repeatedly outperformed international expectations.

Ukraine’s repeat successes are not coincidences. The country’s military has structural advantages over its Russian adversary. The Russian military is extremely hierarchical and overly centralized; its officers are unable to make critical decisions without getting permission from senior leaders. It is very bad at multidirectional planning, incapable of focusing on one segment of the frontline without distracting from its operations in another. Ukraine, by contrast, is quick to adapt, with a NATO-style “mission command” system that encourages lower-ranking officers and sergeants to make decisions. Ukraine has also carried out many successful multidirectional attacks. The country’s counteroffensive in the south, for example, diverted critical Russian resources away from Kharkiv, allowing Ukrainian units to advance there with ease.

Ukraine’s advantages are unlikely to dissipate. The Russian military continues to make unsound decisions. A critical number of junior Russian officers were killed in the first months of the war, and without them, Russia will find it harder to organize and train its troops. Unlike Ukraine, Russia does not have a strong core of noncommissioned officers who can help with the war. Although Russia’s mass mobilization will likely have an impact—the influx of new soldiers will complicate Ukraine’s efforts to advance—it will mostly yield inexperienced and poorly trained men who neither want to fight nor know how to fight. As they experience the shock of battle, coming under loud and devastating artillery attacks, many will run. Many will die.

Ukraine has also suffered serious casualties, and its soldiers will continue to fall in combat. But unlike the Russians, who are fighting a “special military operation” fueled by Putin’s imperial delusions, the Ukrainians are fighting a total war to save their country. Ukraine continues to see a steady stream of motivated fighters; Russia continues to see long lines of men fleeing the country. Ukrainians value and respect their military commanders and President Volodymyr Zelensky, and the military protects its soldiers and promotes its brightest. The Russian military, however, mistreats its troops, showing little regard for their lives. This helps explain why Russian soldiers fled from Kharkiv and are now running in parts of the Donbas and Kherson. Armies that run once tend to run again.

QUALITY AND QUANTITY

It is true that Russia has more weapons than does Ukraine. Despite months of losses, Moscow still possesses sizable stockpiles of missiles, guns, and ammunition that it can use to attack Ukrainian forces. But this is not the advantage that it may seem. When it comes to using weapons, Russia and Ukraine follow different philosophies: Ukraine’s focuses on high-tech and precision-driven equipment, whereas Russia’s relies on high quantity but lower-precision systems. Because precision substantially affects accuracy, Ukraine can do more with less. If Ukraine continues to receive a steady supply of Western weapons, it will be able to negate Russia’s numerical superiority.

Long-range firepower is one critical capability where Ukraine will need more support. The country must have enough weapons and ammunition to outfit its brigades with artillery systems and multiple rocket launchers that can reach behind enemy lines, hitting ammunition depots and making it extremely hard for Russia to send in reinforcements. Ukrainian forces have already successfully used such Western systems, especially U.S.-made High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems (HIMARS). But they will need even more equipment, including new, powerful weapons that can hit deeper targets. If supplied, U.S.-made Army Tactical Missiles Systems (ATCAMS) would prove particularly useful by allowing Ukraine to destroy Russian battlefield positions up to 190 miles away. Ukraine must also have enough weapons to simultaneously meet its operational requirements in at least two or three regions, such as the east and south, while holding off the Russians in others. If Ukraine maintains an initiative and equally strong presence along the war’s long lines of contact, it can be assured of hitting Russia in the areas where the Russian military is weakest.


The United States and Europe can learn invaluable lessons from the way their weapons perform in Ukraine.

But firepower is not the only thing that Ukraine needs. To defeat Russia, Ukraine must be equipped with more tanks and armored personnel carriers, both of which it used to great effect in retaking Kharkiv Province. Ukrainian artillery units will also need enough counterbattery radars, such as AN/TPQ radar systems, so they can swiftly detect incoming fire. Ukraine needs more midrange air-defense units, such as the National Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile Systems (NASAMS), to protect its troops and cities as they come under Russian bombardment. It will need to sustain all these capabilities, so Ukraine’s military must set up ammunition and spare-parts facilities around its western borders. It must also build comprehensive support facilities closer to the frontlines, where it can quickly repair damaged weapons and equipment.

Ukraine has already proved itself capable of downing Russian aircraft and defying predictions that Russia would gain air superiority. Ukraine has also been able to damage the Russian navy. The country’s successful strike against Russian navy installations and vessels, including the Moskva cruiser—the Russian Black Sea Fleet’s flagship—helped push Russia’s ships farther away from the Ukrainian coast. But sea access denial is an ongoing process, not a one-time achievement, and Ukraine will need help if it wants to fully break Russia’s blockade. The West must supply the country with more coastal missiles, unmanned systems, and detailed intelligence so Ukraine can eventually regain full access to its seas.

The West has reasons to supply Ukraine that go beyond just this conflict. The war has given NATO a rare chance to test its equipment in a real-time, high-intensity operational environment. The United States and Europe can learn invaluable lessons from the way their weapons perform, and the more gear they provide, the more knowledge they will acquire. Together, the West and Ukraine can figure out which weapons systems need tweaking and which ones work best, and Kyiv can use the most effective ones to keep pushing Russian forces back.

SAVING THE WORLD

Putin is aware that Russia is losing on the battlefield, and his not-so-veiled threats to use nuclear weapons are a transparent attempt to halt Western assistance. He likely knows that these threats will not stop Ukraine. But if Putin follows through on them, it would be both to deter the West from helping Ukraine and to shock Kyiv into surrendering.

Breaking the nuclear taboo, however, would devastate the Kremlin in ways that simply losing the war wouldn’t. Tactical nuclear weapons are difficult to target, and the fallout can extend in unpredictable directions, meaning a strike could seriously damage Russian troops and territories. Ukrainians would also fight on even if hit by a nuclear attack—for Ukrainians, there is no scenario worse than Russian occupation—so such a strike would not lead to Kyiv’s surrender. And if Russia goes nuclear, it will face a variety of severe retaliatory measures, some of which may have consequences that go beyond just the battlefield. China and India have so far avoided backing Ukraine or sanctioning Russia, but if the Kremlin launches a nuclear attack, Beijing and Delhi may join the West’s anti-Russian coalition, including by implementing severe sanctions and banning relations with Russia. They may even provide military assistance to Ukraine. For Russia, then, the result of nuclear use would be not just defeat but even more international isolation.


Putin, of course, is capable of making terrible choices, and he is desperate. Neither Ukraine nor the West can discount the possibility that he will order a nuclear attack. But the West can deter him by making it clear that, should Russia launch such a strike, it will directly, and conventionally, enter the conflict. Avoiding NATO involvement is one of the main reasons Putin continues to threaten a nuclear attack—Putin knows that if Russia cannot prevail against Ukraine, it has no chance against NATO—and he is therefore unlikely to do something that would bring the bloc in. That’s especially true given the speed with which NATO would win. Ukraine’s counteroffensive is moving comparatively slowly, giving Putin space to use his propaganda apparatus to manage public perception of the events. Once NATO joined, he would have no time to shield his reputation from the Russian military’s stunning collapse.

NATO has no shortage of ways to seriously threaten Russia without using nuclear weapons. It might not even need a land operation. The Western coalition could credibly tell the Kremlin that it would hit Russian capabilities with direct missile strikes and airstrikes, destroying its military facilities and disabling its Black Sea Fleet. It could threaten to cut all its communications with electronic warfare and arrange a cyber-blackout against the entire Russian military. The West could also threaten to impose sanctions that are totalizing and complete (no exceptions for energy buys), which would quickly bankrupt Russia. Especially if taken together, these measures would cause irreparable, critical damage to the Russian armed forces.

What the West should not and cannot do is be cowed by Russia’s nuclear blackmail. If the West stops aiding Ukraine because it fears the consequences, nuclear states will find it much easier to impose their will on nonnuclear ones in the future. If Russia orders a nuclear strike and gets away with it, nuclear states will have almost automatic permission to invade lesser powers. In either scenario, the result will be widespread proliferation. Even poorer countries will plow their resources into nuclear programs, and for an understandable reason: It will be the only sure way to guarantee their sovereignty.

CRIME AND PUNISHMENT

With enough Western weapons, Ukraine will continue breaking through Russian defenses. It will use long-range rockets to destroy command posts, depots, and supply lines, making it impossible for Russia to properly reinforce its battered troops. It will shoot down Russian aircraft, preventing the Russian air force from defending positions. It will keep sinking Russian naval craft. And it will be helped along the way by the Russian military’s many deficiencies: its intense centralization, its emphasis on punishing its forces for mistakes rather than learning from them, and its highly inefficient style of combat. In the face of mounting setbacks, Russian morale will eventually collapse. The country’s soldiers will be forced back home.

Ukraine’s liberation of Crimea and the parts of the Donbas that Russian proxies seized in 2014 will come next. And after Ukraine’s victories elsewhere, these operations are unlikely to be all that taxing. By the time Ukrainian forces get to those regions, the Russian military will most likely be too exhausted to seriously defend them. Many of the male residents of the Russian-controlled Donbas will already have been killed on the frontlines. The survivors (which will likely include most of the region’s remaining male population) are unlikely to be loyal to the Kremlin, given what Putin has put them through. Some Western observers may consider Crimea to be a special case and encourage Ukraine to not press forward there, but although it has been under Russian control longer, its annexation remains every bit as illegal today as it was in 2014. International law should know no compromises or double standards.

The liberation of Crimea and the Donbas should, however, include a reintegration campaign. Because the periods of Russian occupation, with their attendant aggressive propaganda, have lasted so long, residents will need to receive social, legal, and economic assistance from Ukraine as part of reconciliation efforts. These efforts will make for a more delicate operation. As the Ukrainian government restores its governance, it will need to show residents that, unlike Moscow, Kyiv can provide stability and the rule of law.


A Ukrainian victory cannot be secure as long as Putin is in power.

Meanwhile, the world must prepare for what Ukrainian wins in these long-occupied regions will mean for Putin. Annexing Crimea and creating puppet states in the Donbas were two of his signature achievements, and his regime may not survive losing them. The world may want to prepare even before Ukraine moves into Crimea; Putin’s regime will be endangered if Ukraine retakes just the areas Russia seized after February 24. Losing almost all the land it just annexed would be a humiliating failure for Moscow, one that may get Russia’s elites to finally realize that their president’s obsession with war is deeply unproductive and to rise up against him. It would not be the first time in Russian history that a leader has been pushed out of power.

Once Putin is gone, the world must focus on making Russia pay restitution. Moscow should be held fully responsible for the damage it has done to Ukraine, providing reparations to the country and to the Ukrainian people. Ideally, after regime change, Russia will do this of its own volition. But if it doesn’t, the West can redirect hundreds of billions of dollars in frozen Russian assets to Ukraine as collateral. Russia must release all prisoners of war and all Ukrainian civilians it has detained or forcibly moved to Russia. It especially needs to return the thousands of children it kidnapped during the invasion and occupation. Finally, Ukraine and its partners must demand that Moscow hand Putin, other senior Russian leaders, and any figures involved in wartime atrocities over to a globally recognized criminal tribunal. The West should refuse to lift any sanctions on Moscow until these demands are met. They must demonstrate that extreme aggression, genocide, and terror are not acceptable.

This program of penance and justice may seem frightening to international leaders, who believe it could cause instability in Russia. Some analysts even say that the Russian Federation could disintegrate, leading to catastrophic consequences for the rest of the world. Many international leaders had similar fears when the Soviet Union collapsed, including former U.S. President George H. W. Bush, who traveled to Ukraine in 1991 to try to stop the country from seceding from Russia. But these leaders were wrong. Despite the war, Ukraine has become a symbol of democracy around the world. Many other post-Soviet states have grown far wealthier and freer since 1991. If Russia were weakened today, the net outcome would be similarly positive. Its reduced capabilities would make it harder for Moscow to threaten as many people as it does now. And it is simply unjust to try to keep the country’s residents under the foot of a paranoid, genocidal dictator.

Indeed, Ukraine may well need a weaker Russia to protect its wins. At a minimum, it will need substantive regime change to feel safe. Putin’s commitment to eliminating Ukraine and forcing it back into his empire is so extreme that a Ukrainian victory cannot be secure as long as he is in power. And Russia is full of ruthless leaders with a similarly distorted moral compass and a similarly imperialistic worldview. Until Ukraine is allowed to join NATO, it will have to build a powerful military, becoming—as Zelensky put it—a “big Israel.” This is not ideal, and it will be costly. But at least in the near term, it will be the only way that a victorious Ukraine can ensure a long-lasting peace

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #952 on: October 12, 2022, 09:10:54 AM »
second

The argument in the Gateway Pundit piece about Russian dominance in tanks is stupid.  As has been proven already, Javelins beat tanks.


G M

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #954 on: October 12, 2022, 11:51:52 AM »
second

The argument in the Gateway Pundit piece about Russian dominance in tanks is stupid.  As has been proven already, Javelins beat tanks.

How many Javelins are left?

G M

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Re: FA: The Case for Total Uke Victory
« Reply #955 on: October 12, 2022, 11:55:16 AM »


Ukraine’s Path to Victory
How the Country Can Take Back All Its Territory
By Andriy Zagorodnyuk
October 12, 2022
Page url
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/ukraines-path-victory



For too long, the global democratic coalition supporting Kyiv has focused on what it should not do in the invasion of Ukraine. Its main aims include not letting Ukraine lose and not letting Russian President Vladimir Putin win—but also not allowing the war to escalate to a point where Russia attacks a NATO country or conducts a nuclear strike. These, however, are less goals than vague intentions, and they reflect the West’s deep confusion about how the conflict should end. More than seven months into the war, the United States and Europe still lack a positive vision for Ukraine’s future.

The West clearly believes that Kyiv’s fight is just, and it wants Ukraine to succeed. But it is not sure yet whether Ukraine is strong enough to retake all its territory. Many Western leaders still believe that the Russian military is too large to be defeated. This thinking has led the members of the pro-Ukrainian coalition to define only their interim strategic military goals. They have not plotted out the political consequences that would come from a complete Russian military collapse.

It is time to start: Ukraine can win big. The country has proved again and again that it is capable of routing Russia. It first did so by preventing Russia from seizing Kyiv, Kharkiv, Chernihiv, Sumy, and the Black Sea coastline. It succeeded again by halting Russia’s concentrated offensive in the Donbas, the eastern Ukrainian region comprising Donetsk and Luhansk Provinces, part of which Russia has occupied since 2014. Most recently, Ukraine retook Kharkiv Province in less than a week, broke through Russia’s defensive lines in the south, and began liberating parts of the east.

The West must join Kyiv in aiming for an unequivocal Ukrainian victory. It should recognize that Ukraine’s military is not just more motivated than Russia’s but also better led and better trained. To win, Ukraine doesn’t need a miracle; it just needs the West to increase its supply of sophisticated weaponry. Ukrainian forces can then move deeper and faster into enemy lines and overrun more of Russia’s disorganized troops. Putin may respond by calling up additional soldiers, but poorly motivated forces can only delay a well-equipped Ukraine’s eventual triumph. Putin will then be out of conventional tools to forestall losing.

Outside analysts worry that before facing defeat, Putin would try to inflict massive civilian casualties on Ukraine, seeking to coerce the Ukrainian government into making concessions or even into surrendering. He might do so, Western analysts fear, by continuously targeting densely populated areas in Ukrainian cities with long-range missiles—as he has done this week—or through carpet-bombing raids. But Putin lacks the resources to truly level Ukrainian cities. Russia’s remaining inventory of conventional missiles and bombs is large enough to cause substantial damage, but it is not big enough to destroy swaths of Ukraine. And Ukraine has already proved that it will fight on even when Russia reduces cities to rubble. Putin destroyed Mariupol, ruined large parts of Kharkiv, and launched thousands of strikes on other cities and regions. The damage just made Ukrainians more committed to victory and closed off chances for negotiated settlements.

Many Westerners also fear that Putin might act on his threats to use nuclear weapons. But the West can intimidate Putin in ways that will deter him from seriously contemplating such an attack, and a nuclear strike might turn all global powers, not just the United States and Europe, against him. It is ultimately unlikely that Putin will go nuclear. But if he does, the West must make sure that his plan backfires.

As Ukraine’s counteroffensive advances against an increasingly cornered Putin, it should mainly focus on liberating territory that Russia has seized since February 24. But a full Ukrainian victory also entails freeing the parts of the country that Russia has occupied since 2014, which includes Crimea. It means that Ukraine must reclaim its territorial waters and exclusive economic zones in the Black Sea and Azov Sea, without any compromises or conditions.

Russia’s president has increasingly staked his regime on conquering Ukraine, sacrificing his country’s economic growth and international reputation in the process. Such a broad defeat could well push Russian elites to remove him from power. Indeed, as the mass of Putin’s failures and Ukraine’s achievements grows, Putin’s fall may become inevitable. This scares certain leaders, who worry that a power struggle in Russia will breed dangerous instability. But it’s hard to imagine a Russia more dangerous than the one led by Putin, given all the havoc he has wreaked—in Ukraine and throughout the world. The international community should welcome his departure.

ADVANTAGE, UKRAINE

Many Western observers believe that Ukraine will have to cede territory to Russia if it wants peace. They are wrong; territorial gains will only embolden the Kremlin. Putin decided to attack eastern Ukraine in 2014 because he succeeded in occupying Crimea. He invaded the entire country because he managed to establish proxy puppet regimes in the Donbas. Partial success simply motivates Putin to continue his campaigns and seize more territory. The only way to stop the war and to deter future aggression is for the invasion to end with an unequivocal Russian failure.

Winning everywhere might seem overly ambitious, and it certainly won’t be easy. But it is far more possible than most outside observers realize. Ukraine, after all, has repeatedly outperformed international expectations. In the opening weeks of the war, the country stopped Russia’s blitzkrieg against the capital and then forced Moscow to retreat. Putin responded to this defeat by declaring that he would regroup and focus on conquering the Donbas, which is filled with the kind of open fields that favor Russia and its heavy artillery. And yet Ukraine steadily wore Russia down, making it pay for every tract of land with massive casualties. Eventually, Russia was forced to halt.

Ukrainians have also proved that they can make Russia not just retreat but run. Ukraine’s lightning offense across Kharkiv in late September prevented Russia from even trying to annex the province. Its early October victory in Lyman has made Russia’s position in the Donbas deeply uncertain. Ukraine is now even liberating villages in adjoining Luhansk, the only Ukrainian province that Russia entirely seized after February 24. And Ukrainian soldiers are moving closer to Kherson, the first major city that Russia seized in its 2022 offensive.


Ukraine has repeatedly outperformed international expectations.

Ukraine’s repeat successes are not coincidences. The country’s military has structural advantages over its Russian adversary. The Russian military is extremely hierarchical and overly centralized; its officers are unable to make critical decisions without getting permission from senior leaders. It is very bad at multidirectional planning, incapable of focusing on one segment of the frontline without distracting from its operations in another. Ukraine, by contrast, is quick to adapt, with a NATO-style “mission command” system that encourages lower-ranking officers and sergeants to make decisions. Ukraine has also carried out many successful multidirectional attacks. The country’s counteroffensive in the south, for example, diverted critical Russian resources away from Kharkiv, allowing Ukrainian units to advance there with ease.

Ukraine’s advantages are unlikely to dissipate. The Russian military continues to make unsound decisions. A critical number of junior Russian officers were killed in the first months of the war, and without them, Russia will find it harder to organize and train its troops. Unlike Ukraine, Russia does not have a strong core of noncommissioned officers who can help with the war. Although Russia’s mass mobilization will likely have an impact—the influx of new soldiers will complicate Ukraine’s efforts to advance—it will mostly yield inexperienced and poorly trained men who neither want to fight nor know how to fight. As they experience the shock of battle, coming under loud and devastating artillery attacks, many will run. Many will die.

Ukraine has also suffered serious casualties, and its soldiers will continue to fall in combat. But unlike the Russians, who are fighting a “special military operation” fueled by Putin’s imperial delusions, the Ukrainians are fighting a total war to save their country. Ukraine continues to see a steady stream of motivated fighters; Russia continues to see long lines of men fleeing the country. Ukrainians value and respect their military commanders and President Volodymyr Zelensky, and the military protects its soldiers and promotes its brightest. The Russian military, however, mistreats its troops, showing little regard for their lives. This helps explain why Russian soldiers fled from Kharkiv and are now running in parts of the Donbas and Kherson. Armies that run once tend to run again.

QUALITY AND QUANTITY

It is true that Russia has more weapons than does Ukraine. Despite months of losses, Moscow still possesses sizable stockpiles of missiles, guns, and ammunition that it can use to attack Ukrainian forces. But this is not the advantage that it may seem. When it comes to using weapons, Russia and Ukraine follow different philosophies: Ukraine’s focuses on high-tech and precision-driven equipment, whereas Russia’s relies on high quantity but lower-precision systems. Because precision substantially affects accuracy, Ukraine can do more with less. If Ukraine continues to receive a steady supply of Western weapons, it will be able to negate Russia’s numerical superiority.

Long-range firepower is one critical capability where Ukraine will need more support. The country must have enough weapons and ammunition to outfit its brigades with artillery systems and multiple rocket launchers that can reach behind enemy lines, hitting ammunition depots and making it extremely hard for Russia to send in reinforcements. Ukrainian forces have already successfully used such Western systems, especially U.S.-made High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems (HIMARS). But they will need even more equipment, including new, powerful weapons that can hit deeper targets. If supplied, U.S.-made Army Tactical Missiles Systems (ATCAMS) would prove particularly useful by allowing Ukraine to destroy Russian battlefield positions up to 190 miles away. Ukraine must also have enough weapons to simultaneously meet its operational requirements in at least two or three regions, such as the east and south, while holding off the Russians in others. If Ukraine maintains an initiative and equally strong presence along the war’s long lines of contact, it can be assured of hitting Russia in the areas where the Russian military is weakest.


The United States and Europe can learn invaluable lessons from the way their weapons perform in Ukraine.

But firepower is not the only thing that Ukraine needs. To defeat Russia, Ukraine must be equipped with more tanks and armored personnel carriers, both of which it used to great effect in retaking Kharkiv Province. Ukrainian artillery units will also need enough counterbattery radars, such as AN/TPQ radar systems, so they can swiftly detect incoming fire. Ukraine needs more midrange air-defense units, such as the National Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile Systems (NASAMS), to protect its troops and cities as they come under Russian bombardment. It will need to sustain all these capabilities, so Ukraine’s military must set up ammunition and spare-parts facilities around its western borders. It must also build comprehensive support facilities closer to the frontlines, where it can quickly repair damaged weapons and equipment.

Ukraine has already proved itself capable of downing Russian aircraft and defying predictions that Russia would gain air superiority. Ukraine has also been able to damage the Russian navy. The country’s successful strike against Russian navy installations and vessels, including the Moskva cruiser—the Russian Black Sea Fleet’s flagship—helped push Russia’s ships farther away from the Ukrainian coast. But sea access denial is an ongoing process, not a one-time achievement, and Ukraine will need help if it wants to fully break Russia’s blockade. The West must supply the country with more coastal missiles, unmanned systems, and detailed intelligence so Ukraine can eventually regain full access to its seas.

The West has reasons to supply Ukraine that go beyond just this conflict. The war has given NATO a rare chance to test its equipment in a real-time, high-intensity operational environment. The United States and Europe can learn invaluable lessons from the way their weapons perform, and the more gear they provide, the more knowledge they will acquire. Together, the West and Ukraine can figure out which weapons systems need tweaking and which ones work best, and Kyiv can use the most effective ones to keep pushing Russian forces back.

SAVING THE WORLD

Putin is aware that Russia is losing on the battlefield, and his not-so-veiled threats to use nuclear weapons are a transparent attempt to halt Western assistance. He likely knows that these threats will not stop Ukraine. But if Putin follows through on them, it would be both to deter the West from helping Ukraine and to shock Kyiv into surrendering.

Breaking the nuclear taboo, however, would devastate the Kremlin in ways that simply losing the war wouldn’t. Tactical nuclear weapons are difficult to target, and the fallout can extend in unpredictable directions, meaning a strike could seriously damage Russian troops and territories. Ukrainians would also fight on even if hit by a nuclear attack—for Ukrainians, there is no scenario worse than Russian occupation—so such a strike would not lead to Kyiv’s surrender. And if Russia goes nuclear, it will face a variety of severe retaliatory measures, some of which may have consequences that go beyond just the battlefield. China and India have so far avoided backing Ukraine or sanctioning Russia, but if the Kremlin launches a nuclear attack, Beijing and Delhi may join the West’s anti-Russian coalition, including by implementing severe sanctions and banning relations with Russia. They may even provide military assistance to Ukraine. For Russia, then, the result of nuclear use would be not just defeat but even more international isolation.


Putin, of course, is capable of making terrible choices, and he is desperate. Neither Ukraine nor the West can discount the possibility that he will order a nuclear attack. But the West can deter him by making it clear that, should Russia launch such a strike, it will directly, and conventionally, enter the conflict. Avoiding NATO involvement is one of the main reasons Putin continues to threaten a nuclear attack—Putin knows that if Russia cannot prevail against Ukraine, it has no chance against NATO—and he is therefore unlikely to do something that would bring the bloc in. That’s especially true given the speed with which NATO would win. Ukraine’s counteroffensive is moving comparatively slowly, giving Putin space to use his propaganda apparatus to manage public perception of the events. Once NATO joined, he would have no time to shield his reputation from the Russian military’s stunning collapse.

NATO has no shortage of ways to seriously threaten Russia without using nuclear weapons. It might not even need a land operation. The Western coalition could credibly tell the Kremlin that it would hit Russian capabilities with direct missile strikes and airstrikes, destroying its military facilities and disabling its Black Sea Fleet. It could threaten to cut all its communications with electronic warfare and arrange a cyber-blackout against the entire Russian military. The West could also threaten to impose sanctions that are totalizing and complete (no exceptions for energy buys), which would quickly bankrupt Russia. Especially if taken together, these measures would cause irreparable, critical damage to the Russian armed forces.

What the West should not and cannot do is be cowed by Russia’s nuclear blackmail. If the West stops aiding Ukraine because it fears the consequences, nuclear states will find it much easier to impose their will on nonnuclear ones in the future. If Russia orders a nuclear strike and gets away with it, nuclear states will have almost automatic permission to invade lesser powers. In either scenario, the result will be widespread proliferation. Even poorer countries will plow their resources into nuclear programs, and for an understandable reason: It will be the only sure way to guarantee their sovereignty.

CRIME AND PUNISHMENT

With enough Western weapons, Ukraine will continue breaking through Russian defenses. It will use long-range rockets to destroy command posts, depots, and supply lines, making it impossible for Russia to properly reinforce its battered troops. It will shoot down Russian aircraft, preventing the Russian air force from defending positions. It will keep sinking Russian naval craft. And it will be helped along the way by the Russian military’s many deficiencies: its intense centralization, its emphasis on punishing its forces for mistakes rather than learning from them, and its highly inefficient style of combat. In the face of mounting setbacks, Russian morale will eventually collapse. The country’s soldiers will be forced back home.

Ukraine’s liberation of Crimea and the parts of the Donbas that Russian proxies seized in 2014 will come next. And after Ukraine’s victories elsewhere, these operations are unlikely to be all that taxing. By the time Ukrainian forces get to those regions, the Russian military will most likely be too exhausted to seriously defend them. Many of the male residents of the Russian-controlled Donbas will already have been killed on the frontlines. The survivors (which will likely include most of the region’s remaining male population) are unlikely to be loyal to the Kremlin, given what Putin has put them through. Some Western observers may consider Crimea to be a special case and encourage Ukraine to not press forward there, but although it has been under Russian control longer, its annexation remains every bit as illegal today as it was in 2014. International law should know no compromises or double standards.

The liberation of Crimea and the Donbas should, however, include a reintegration campaign. Because the periods of Russian occupation, with their attendant aggressive propaganda, have lasted so long, residents will need to receive social, legal, and economic assistance from Ukraine as part of reconciliation efforts. These efforts will make for a more delicate operation. As the Ukrainian government restores its governance, it will need to show residents that, unlike Moscow, Kyiv can provide stability and the rule of law.


A Ukrainian victory cannot be secure as long as Putin is in power.

Meanwhile, the world must prepare for what Ukrainian wins in these long-occupied regions will mean for Putin. Annexing Crimea and creating puppet states in the Donbas were two of his signature achievements, and his regime may not survive losing them. The world may want to prepare even before Ukraine moves into Crimea; Putin’s regime will be endangered if Ukraine retakes just the areas Russia seized after February 24. Losing almost all the land it just annexed would be a humiliating failure for Moscow, one that may get Russia’s elites to finally realize that their president’s obsession with war is deeply unproductive and to rise up against him. It would not be the first time in Russian history that a leader has been pushed out of power.

Once Putin is gone, the world must focus on making Russia pay restitution. Moscow should be held fully responsible for the damage it has done to Ukraine, providing reparations to the country and to the Ukrainian people. Ideally, after regime change, Russia will do this of its own volition. But if it doesn’t, the West can redirect hundreds of billions of dollars in frozen Russian assets to Ukraine as collateral. Russia must release all prisoners of war and all Ukrainian civilians it has detained or forcibly moved to Russia. It especially needs to return the thousands of children it kidnapped during the invasion and occupation. Finally, Ukraine and its partners must demand that Moscow hand Putin, other senior Russian leaders, and any figures involved in wartime atrocities over to a globally recognized criminal tribunal. The West should refuse to lift any sanctions on Moscow until these demands are met. They must demonstrate that extreme aggression, genocide, and terror are not acceptable.

This program of penance and justice may seem frightening to international leaders, who believe it could cause instability in Russia. Some analysts even say that the Russian Federation could disintegrate, leading to catastrophic consequences for the rest of the world. Many international leaders had similar fears when the Soviet Union collapsed, including former U.S. President George H. W. Bush, who traveled to Ukraine in 1991 to try to stop the country from seceding from Russia. But these leaders were wrong. Despite the war, Ukraine has become a symbol of democracy around the world. Many other post-Soviet states have grown far wealthier and freer since 1991. If Russia were weakened today, the net outcome would be similarly positive. Its reduced capabilities would make it harder for Moscow to threaten as many people as it does now. And it is simply unjust to try to keep the country’s residents under the foot of a paranoid, genocidal dictator.

Indeed, Ukraine may well need a weaker Russia to protect its wins. At a minimum, it will need substantive regime change to feel safe. Putin’s commitment to eliminating Ukraine and forcing it back into his empire is so extreme that a Ukrainian victory cannot be secure as long as he is in power. And Russia is full of ruthless leaders with a similarly distorted moral compass and a similarly imperialistic worldview. Until Ukraine is allowed to join NATO, it will have to build a powerful military, becoming—as Zelensky put it—a “big Israel.” This is not ideal, and it will be costly. But at least in the near term, it will be the only way that a victorious Ukraine can ensure a long-lasting peace

1. Save a rich person from drowning.

2. Use the reward money to hire Van Halen to play at my birthday party.

3. Marry Cindy Crawford!

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #956 on: October 12, 2022, 12:07:46 PM »
How many Russians are willing to get into those tanks to find out?

G M

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #957 on: October 12, 2022, 12:09:51 PM »
How many Russians are willing to get into those tanks to find out?

I guess we will find out.



Crafty_Dog

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #959 on: October 12, 2022, 12:57:57 PM »
second post-- this from a forum I play on by a poster who has a good track record:

"FWIW, the Russians have mobilized a significant portion of their anti-satellite weapons in the last couple of days. Assuming they blame the US for the attack on their gas pipelines, the rudimentary protocol, should they choose to implement it would be to respond asymmetrically (we cut off their finger, they respond by cutting off our hand).

"Hypothetically, if they wanted to initiate a dramatic asymmetric response, they may choose to sever the undersea fiberoptic cables connecting us with the rest of the world, and even take down the majority of our communication satellites. It's conceivable that, depending on resources deployed, they could in a matter of a few hours, disable close to 100% of our international communications. Essentially cutting the US off from the rest of the world.

"The next steps, if things ramp up, would most certainly be a series of massive EMP attacks over North America and Europe, followed immediately by nuclear attacks on strategic ground targets. Final phase, if the US launches missiles, would be to attack major population centers and implement their 100 MT nuclear Poseidon "doomsday" torpedoes."

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GPF: More pipeline sabotage plus objective conditions in Belarus get dicey
« Reply #960 on: October 12, 2022, 01:04:16 PM »
Some officials have described a new oil pipeline incident as sabotage.
By: Geopolitical Futures

More leaks. Poland has reported a leak in one of the two branches of the Druzhba oil pipeline, which connects Russia and Germany via Belarus and Poland. Although the reason for the leak is unknown, Serbian Energy Minister Zorana Mihajlovic described the incident as a “continuation” of what happened to both of the Nord Stream natural gas pipelines – that is, sabotage. The extent of the damage is unclear, but things like this typically drive energy prices up.


Belarusian sabotage? The Belarusian military has begun special exercises to detect and destroy armed groups in the Gomel region on the border with Ukraine. Authorities in Minsk have reported that Lithuania, Poland and Ukraine are grooming Belarusian radicals to foment unrest from within a key Russian ally and important Russian buffer.

G M

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #961 on: October 12, 2022, 01:18:44 PM »
second post-- this from a forum I play on by a poster who has a good track record:

"FWIW, the Russians have mobilized a significant portion of their anti-satellite weapons in the last couple of days. Assuming they blame the US for the attack on their gas pipelines, the rudimentary protocol, should they choose to implement it would be to respond asymmetrically (we cut off their finger, they respond by cutting off our hand).

"Hypothetically, if they wanted to initiate a dramatic asymmetric response, they may choose to sever the undersea fiberoptic cables connecting us with the rest of the world, and even take down the majority of our communication satellites. It's conceivable that, depending on resources deployed, they could in a matter of a few hours, disable close to 100% of our international communications. Essentially cutting the US off from the rest of the world.

"The next steps, if things ramp up, would most certainly be a series of massive EMP attacks over North America and Europe, followed immediately by nuclear attacks on strategic ground targets. Final phase, if the US launches missiles, would be to attack major population centers and implement their 100 MT nuclear Poseidon "doomsday" torpedoes."

Good thing we are refusing talks and are continuing to antagonize Russia!

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #962 on: October 12, 2022, 02:03:01 PM »
At this point Russia is not offering talks so there is nothing to refuse.

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #963 on: October 12, 2022, 07:09:39 PM »

DougMacG

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Ukraine, Even the UN gets it
« Reply #964 on: October 13, 2022, 04:19:28 AM »
https://www.businessinsider.com/these-5-countries-sided-with-russia-in-un-vote-2022-10
143 countries voted to condemn Russia's illegal Ukraine annexations in key UN vote. Here are the 5 that didn't.

The UN General Assembly on Wednesday overwhelmingly voted to condemn Russia's annexations in Ukraine.
Of the 193-member body, 143 countries supported Ukraine, while 35 abstained from the vote.
Only five countries, one of which was Russia itself, voted against the measure.

The UN General Assembly on Wednesday issued a sweeping condemnation of Russia's attempt to annex four territories in Ukraine last month in a resolute display of global disapproval.

The vote was sparked by Russia's recent annexation of partially-occupied territories in Ukraine, including the Kherson, Luhansk, Donetsk, and Zaporizhzhia regions. The UN General Assembly in its measure demanded that Russia reverse the land grab.

The 193-member body issued its most staunch support for Ukraine yet during Wednesday's vote, which saw 143 nations condemn Russia's actions and 35 countries abstain from voting.

Only five countries voted against the resolution, one of which was Russia itself. North Korea, Belarus, Syria, and Nicaragua — all led by dictator-like regimes — joined the increasingly isolated nation.

The remaining 10 countries did not vote — a slight, technical distinction from the abstention option.

After the vote, the German Foreign Office tweeted a photo of the results, saying: "That is what being on the wrong side of history looks like."

It was a stronger response than many Western officials had expected, as well as the most robust showing of support from the UN General Assembly for Ukraine since the war began in February. The body has voted on four resolutions in the months since Russia invaded, including a demand for a Russian cease-fire and a measure to suspend Russia from the UN's Geneva-based Human Rights Council.

Several nations that had previously abstained from or not voted on the prior resolutions joined the majority on Wednesday to vote "yes," including Bangladesh, Morocco, and Iraq. Among the additional surprises were Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates.

Sergiy Kyslytsya, who serves as Ukraine's ambassador to the UN, called the vote a "historic moment," according to the Associated Press, while European Union Ambassador Olof Skoog said the vote sends a message to Russia that they are "isolated."

G M

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Re: Ukraine, Even the UN gets it
« Reply #965 on: October 13, 2022, 05:13:12 AM »
Wow! The moral authority of the UN!

 :roll:

https://www.businessinsider.com/these-5-countries-sided-with-russia-in-un-vote-2022-10
143 countries voted to condemn Russia's illegal Ukraine annexations in key UN vote. Here are the 5 that didn't.

The UN General Assembly on Wednesday overwhelmingly voted to condemn Russia's annexations in Ukraine.
Of the 193-member body, 143 countries supported Ukraine, while 35 abstained from the vote.
Only five countries, one of which was Russia itself, voted against the measure.

The UN General Assembly on Wednesday issued a sweeping condemnation of Russia's attempt to annex four territories in Ukraine last month in a resolute display of global disapproval.

The vote was sparked by Russia's recent annexation of partially-occupied territories in Ukraine, including the Kherson, Luhansk, Donetsk, and Zaporizhzhia regions. The UN General Assembly in its measure demanded that Russia reverse the land grab.

The 193-member body issued its most staunch support for Ukraine yet during Wednesday's vote, which saw 143 nations condemn Russia's actions and 35 countries abstain from voting.

Only five countries voted against the resolution, one of which was Russia itself. North Korea, Belarus, Syria, and Nicaragua — all led by dictator-like regimes — joined the increasingly isolated nation.

The remaining 10 countries did not vote — a slight, technical distinction from the abstention option.

After the vote, the German Foreign Office tweeted a photo of the results, saying: "That is what being on the wrong side of history looks like."

It was a stronger response than many Western officials had expected, as well as the most robust showing of support from the UN General Assembly for Ukraine since the war began in February. The body has voted on four resolutions in the months since Russia invaded, including a demand for a Russian cease-fire and a measure to suspend Russia from the UN's Geneva-based Human Rights Council.

Several nations that had previously abstained from or not voted on the prior resolutions joined the majority on Wednesday to vote "yes," including Bangladesh, Morocco, and Iraq. Among the additional surprises were Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates.

Sergiy Kyslytsya, who serves as Ukraine's ambassador to the UN, called the vote a "historic moment," according to the Associated Press, while European Union Ambassador Olof Skoog said the vote sends a message to Russia that they are "isolated."

DougMacG

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Re: Ukraine, Even the UN gets it
« Reply #966 on: October 13, 2022, 06:36:37 AM »
Wow! The moral authority of the UN!
 :roll:

Right.  They have minimal moral authority, if any.  Maybe what these nations value is sovereignty.

BTW, has everyone here condemned the invasion and blamed Putin with singular responsibility for the carnage?

G M

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Re: Ukraine, Even the UN gets it
« Reply #967 on: October 13, 2022, 06:40:30 AM »
Wow! The moral authority of the UN!
 :roll:

Right.  They have minimal moral authority, if any.  Maybe what these nations value is sovereignty.

BTW, has everyone here condemned the invasion and blamed Putin with singular responsibility for the carnage?

The US and NATO created the crisis that resulted in the war. Once again, we stick our noses where they don't belong and innocents suffer, but the MIC gets paid, so it's all worthwhile.

https://media.gab.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=1050,quality=100,fit=scale-down/system/media_attachments/files/117/722/215/original/cae44023ad3f4a3a.png



Trusting what American officials say is always a mistake.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2022, 06:44:58 AM by G M »

DougMacG

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #968 on: October 13, 2022, 07:05:05 AM »
Meanwhile, since 1990, the Russians were just minding their own business...

Or were they "belligerently" "bullying their neighbors" as testified by the Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 2007?

G M

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #969 on: October 13, 2022, 07:09:05 AM »
Meanwhile, since 1990, the Russians were just minding their own business...

Or were they "belligerently" "bullying their neighbors" as testified by the Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 2007?

Mean tweets?


DougMacG

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G M

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Re: Putin shuts down clean nuclear power in (former?) Ukraine
« Reply #971 on: October 13, 2022, 07:58:50 AM »
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/rick-moran/2022/10/12/zaporizhzhia-nuclear-power-plant-has-lost-external-power-as-russia-claims-ownership-n1636440

Crimes against humanity, everyday, (while some blame the rape victim).

Like the Ukraine being one of the top producers of child exploitation media in the world?


DougMacG

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #973 on: October 14, 2022, 07:08:04 AM »
Strange how easy it is to find diametrically opposed views on how the war is going from what should be very credible sources.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/10/14/russia-missiles-infrastructure-war-ukraine/
War in Ukraine
Russia’s airstrikes, intended to show force, reveal another weakness

By Robyn Dixon
October 14, 2022 at 1:00 a.m. EDT

A house destroyed by Russian shelling in Lezhyne near Zaporizhzhia, Ukraine, on Oct. 12. (Wojciech Grzedzinski for The Washington Post)

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On Monday, Russia fired 84 missiles, many at Ukrainian civilian infrastructure targets, causing power outages in many cities. On Tuesday, Russia launched another 28 cruise missiles. And on Thursday, the Ukrainian Armed Forced General Staff said Russia had hit more than 40 settlements since the day before. In all, more than three dozen people were killed.

Are you on Telegram? Subscribe to our channel for the latest updates on Russia’s war in Ukraine.
But no matter how many times Russia fires at Ukraine, pro-war Russian nationalists want more, even though targeting civilian infrastructure is potentially a war crime.

“It has to be done constantly, not just once but for two to five weeks to totally disable all their infrastructure, all thermal power stations, all heating and power stations, all power plants, all traction substations, all power lines, all railway hubs,” said Bogdan Bezpalko, a member of the Kremlin’s Council on Interethnic Relations.

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“Then, Ukraine will descend into cold and darkness,” Bezpalko said on state television. “They won’t be able to bring in ammunition and fuel and then the Ukrainian army will turn into a crowd of armed men with chunks of iron.”

But the hawks, who are demanding publicly on TV broadcasts and on Telegram to know why Russia does not hit more high value targets, won’t like the answer: The Russian military appears to lack sufficient accurate missiles to sustain airstrikes at Monday’s tempo, according to Western military analysts.

“They are low on precision guided missiles,” said Konrad Muzyka, founder of Gdansk, Poland-based Rochan Consulting said, offering his assessment of Russia’s sporadic air attacks. “That is essentially the only explanation that I have.”

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Even as NATO allies on Thursday said they would rush additional air defenses to Ukraine, the experts said the reason Russia had yet to knock out electricity and water service across the country was simple: it can’t.

Since May, Russia’s use of precision guided missiles (PGMs) has declined sharply, with analysts suggesting then that Russian stocks of such missiles may be low.

Tuesday’s attacks mainly used air-launched cruise missiles, which are slower than Iskander guided missiles and easier for Ukraine to shoot down, according to Muzyka. In March, the Pentagon reported that Russia’s air-launched cruise missiles have a failure rate of 20 to 60 percent.

“If Russia had a limitless supply of PGMs, I think that they would still strike civilian targets, because that’s what the Russian way of warfare is,” Muzyka said. He said analysts did not have confirmed information about Russian missile stocks or production levels, and judgments were based on the decline in usage of PGMs and Moscow’s greater reliance on less accurate missiles.


Fresh missile strikes hit Kyiv, Mykolaiv and
At least one person was killed in Zaporizhzhia in a new round of Russian missile attacks across Ukraine on Oct. 11, according to the State Emergency Service. (Video: The Washington Post)
Putin faces limits of his military power as Ukraine recaptures land

But a clue lies in Russia’s failure to destroy the kinds of targets that Ukraine is able to hit using U.S.-supplied HIMARS artillery.

“If we take a look at what HIMARS has done to Russian supply routes, and essentially their ability to sustain war, they’ve done massive damage to Russia’s posture in this war,” Muzyka said. “So technically, you know, if the Russians had access to a large stock of PGMS, they could probably inflict a similar damage to Ukrainian armed forces, but they haven’t.”

“They actually failed to,” he continued. “They even failed to interdict the main Ukrainian supply roads. They failed to destroy bridges, railway, railway intersections, and so on and so forth.”

Stray puppies in a school classroom that Russian occupying forces used as a base in the Kherson region of Ukraine on Oct. 6. (Heidi Levine for The Washington Post)
Russian President Vladimir Putin is juggling so many military problems that some Western analysts are already predicting Russia’s war will fail. Others say it remains too early to write Russia off, especially with hundreds of thousands of conscripted reinforcements potentially headed to the battlefield in coming weeks.

Since day one, Russia has sustained shocking levels of battlefield casualties, battering military morale. It has suffered repeated defeats, including the failure to take Kyiv, a retreat from Snake Island, the rout in Kharkiv and loss of Lyman, a strategic transit hub.

Ukrainian forces also continue to slowly recover territory in Kherson region, in their ongoing southern offensive.

Russia’s military mobilization also remains in shambles, with angry draftees posting videos online almost daily, complaining of insufficient training and poor equipment. Moscow police raided hostels and cafes on Tuesday to grab men and deliver them to mobilization points, and military recruitment is continuing in Russian prisons, according to independent Russian media site SOTA.

Putin confronted by insider over Ukraine war, U.S. intelligence finds

Lawrence Freedman, professor of war studies at King’s College London, wrote in a newsletter that Russia’s escalation of missile attacks on civilian targets Monday had achieved no clear military gain.

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“Russia lacks the missiles to mount attacks of this sort often, as it is running out of stocks and the Ukrainians are claiming a high success rate in intercepting many of those already used,” Freedman wrote. “This is not therefore a new war-winning strategy but a sociopath’s tantrum.”

Putin’s “need to calm his critics also explains why he has lashed out against Ukrainian cities,” Freedman wrote. “The hard-liners have been demanding attacks on Ukrainian infrastructure for some time and they now have got what they wanted. But they will inevitably be disappointed with the results.”

“These attacks could well be repeated, because it is part of the mind-set of Putin and his generals that enemies can be forced to capitulate by such means,” he added. “But stocks of Kalibr and Iskander missiles are running low.”

As missiles strike Ukraine, Israel won’t sell its vaunted air defense

Amid Russia’s military setbacks, striking at Ukraine’s power grid in recent days was designed to shock and terrify civilians, starve them of energy in the winter and break their will to resist, according to Maria Shagina, an analyst with the International Institute for Strategic Studies, a London-based think tank.


Kyiv residents clean up after Russian missile strike
1:20
Kyiv residents cleared debris from their homes and stores after a Russian missile attack on Oct. 10. (Video: Reuters)
One apparent goal of Russia’s strikes on six electrical substations in Lviv, western Ukraine, was to stop Ukraine exporting electricity to Europe, Shagina said. The strikes also crippled the city’s power supply.

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“Now we’re seeing the escalation and weaponization of the critical infrastructure,” she said, adding that it was no accident that Russia had destroyed Ukraine’s capacity to export electricity to Europe at the same time Moscow has weaponized natural gas, cutting supplies to pressure European Union countries.

“There is some intensification of the war, in terms that Russia doesn’t hide even the fact that they have attacked civilian infrastructure, critical infrastructure,” Shagina added. “They’re trying to escalate the war as much as they can.”

Russia’s new commander in Ukraine was decorated after brutality in Syria

Muzyka said Russia, ignoring international conventions, has consistently targeted civilian apartment blocks and infrastructure in two Chechen wars, in Syria and Ukraine.

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“Definitely they focus on the power grid as a way of making civilian lives miserable,” he said. “For Russians, striking civilian areas, residential areas and anything that can potentially impact the lives of civilians is a military objective, because for Russia, the war is total.”

“Essentially what the Russians are trying to do is to wear down Ukrainians, decrease the morale, decrease the willingness to fight and from their point of view, hopefully increase the pressure on the Ukrainian government to enter negotiations with Russia,” he added.


People with Ukrainian flags attend an antiwar protest in front of the German chancellery in Berlin on Tuesday. (Markus Schreiber/AP)
Ukraine has asked Western allies for state of the art air defense systems to protect its civilians and vital infrastructure. But even as NATO pledged more help, U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin said that getting those systems to Ukraine would take time.

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“Unfortunately, the Western response is rather limited,” Shagina said, adding that Russia is trying “to use the full range of measures they can deploy against the West and Ukraine.”

But no matter how harsh the attacks, the hawks in Russia say it is still not enough.

Russian journalist Andrei Medvedev, a member of the Moscow city council, who runs a popular hard line nationalist pro-war Telegram channel, urged patience, saying the decision “to bomb Ukraine into the Middle Ages” had not yet been taken.

Another hawk, Alexander Kots, the war correspondent of Komsomolskaya Pravda, who has his own influential pro-war Telegram channel, said he hoped the strikes signaled a new kind of warfare that would bombard Ukraine “until it loses its ability to function.”

Natalia Abbakumova contributed to this report.

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #974 on: October 14, 2022, 07:20:28 AM »
"Strange how easy it is to find diametrically opposed views on how the war is going from what should be very credible sources."

Indeed!

Though it a certain sense it would be stranger yet if it were otherwise.

I find myself thinking of David Gordon's market advice distinction between "Profit and being a Prophet" and the "Thinking in Bets" mindset of a professional poker player.

Trying to prophesize risks leaving one in what Buddha might call "attachment" to advocacy for a particular outcome, whereas a ruthless hunt for profit tends to leave one more objectively responsive to changes as they arise.

All of us here thought poking the Bear was a really poor idea, but now that the fight is on there is no going back to the status quo ante. 
As the facts change so too must we.

Reuters today:
===========
RUSSIA-UKRAINE WAR
Russian-backed forces have made some advances in eastern Ukraine, Britain said, even as Moscow's hold weakens in the south, where a Russian-installed official has advised residents to flee a region Russia claims to have annexed.

A British intelligence update said forces led by the private Russian military company Wagner Group had captured the villages of Optyine and Ivangrad south of the fiercely-contested town of Bakhmut, the first such advance in more than three months.

With Russia expected to soon carry out large-scale drills of its nuclear forces as President Vladimir Putin threatens to use them, the United States and its allies will be challenged to ensure they can spot the difference between exercises and the real thing.

Elon Musk said SpaceX cannot "indefinitely" fund the Starlink internet service in Ukraine and send it several thousands more terminals after a report suggested that his rocket company had asked the Pentagon to pay for the donations.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2022, 07:23:16 AM by Crafty_Dog »



DougMacG

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Re: Running out of munitions to give to Ukraine
« Reply #977 on: October 15, 2022, 10:22:15 AM »
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/us-signals-slowdown-high-end-munitions-deliveries-ukraine

Happy to help out but we don't want them to grow dependent on it.

How about those other 146 countries that side with their cause, maybe their have ammo.

G M

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Re: Running out of munitions to give to Ukraine
« Reply #978 on: October 16, 2022, 09:13:08 AM »
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/us-signals-slowdown-high-end-munitions-deliveries-ukraine

Happy to help out but we don't want them to grow dependent on it.

How about those other 146 countries that side with their cause, maybe their have ammo.

They are utterly dependent on it.

It's ok, the Zelensky crew and our corruptocrats are getting even richer, and that's the real reason for the war.

G M

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Re: ET: Ten years of American fukkery in Ukraine
« Reply #979 on: October 16, 2022, 09:02:11 PM »
https://media.gab.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=1050,quality=100,fit=scale-down/system/media_attachments/files/118/118/552/original/98eda3bb27e31973.jpg



https://www.theepochtimes.com/before-russias-invasion-of-ukraine-a-decade-of-destabilization_4316990.html?utm_source=Opinion&utm_campaign=opinion-2022-03-09&utm_medium=email&est=%2Bqxu%2BDUNGu8eCZYSGT69Ns14oYtieKUe9gCtosFWn%2FziyTM7KIK9%2FovkGBjAa3KF6H%2B4

Before Russia’s Invasion of Ukraine, a Decade of Destabilization
How top US officials played key roles in destabilizing Ukraine, damaging US–Russia relations
By Jeff Carlson and Hans Mahncke March 4, 2022 Updated: March 8, 2022biggersmaller Print
News Analysis

As war rages in Ukraine following the invasion by Russia, the realities on the ground are difficult to assess—it’s estimated that thousands have been killed, including hundreds of civilians, and 2 million have been forced to flee their homes.

Although Russian President Vladimir Putin is rightly deserving of blame, top U.S. officials over the past decade have played important roles in critical events that undermined U.S. relations with Russia and resulted in the destabilization of Ukraine.

The deterioration in our relations with Russia, in many ways, started with President George W. Bush in 2008, when he dangled before Ukraine the promise of NATO membership during the Bucharest declaration, boldly claiming, “We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO.”

The promise of NATO membership for Ukraine is something that has never been taken lightly by Russia, which has remained resolutely opposed to any NATO expansion along its borders.

In 1990, U.S. Secretary of State James Baker and German Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher had promised the Kremlin not to expand NATO eastward in return for German unification. However, in the decades that followed that promise, NATO incorporated 14 additional Eastern European countries.

In his 2020 memoir, Joe Biden’s current CIA director, Bill Burns, explicitly warned about the dangers posed by Ukraine gaining NATO membership, citing his own words in 2008 to then-Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice: “Ukrainian entry into NATO is the brightest of all redlines for the Russian elite (not just Putin).​”

“In more than two and a half years of conversations with key Russian players, from knuckle-draggers in the dark recesses of the Kremlin to Putin’s sharpest liberal critics, I have yet to find anyone who views Ukraine in NATO as anything other than a direct challenge to Russian interests,” he wrote.

Ukraine’s Longstanding Political Troubles
In addition to its geographic importance as a centuries-old buffer territory between the East and West, Ukraine is a resource-rich country with an abundance of agriculture exports and large supplies of minerals, iron ore, and coal.

Yet Ukraine’s political upheavals and influence from powerful oligarchs have meant that it’s also one of the poorest countries in Europe. Ukraine’s per-capita nominal gross domestic product stands at around $3,500 compared to the European average of $31,000. Rampant governmental corruption has only served to make a difficult situation worse.

Ukraine has been through two significant revolutions since it gained independence in 1991. The first revolution occurred in 2004, when the apparent winner of the presidential election, Viktor Yanukovych, a candidate favored by Russia, was unseated. Yanukovych made a political comeback in 2010 when he again won the presidential election.

However, Yanukovych was deposed yet again in February 2014, when a U.S.-supported coup installed a new government in Ukraine. Arseniy Yatsenyuk, the candidate pushed by the United States, was installed as prime minister, but would resign two years later amid corruption accusations.

While the 2014 Maidan Revolution has been portrayed as a triumph of democracy over oppression, such a characterization ignores the fact that the resulting coup culminated in the removal of a democratically elected leader of Ukraine.

Ukraine, which became a focal point of a new cold war with Russia, led many U.S. officials to willfully ignore a dangerous rise in fascist sentiments and neo-Nazi movements within the country.

Andriy Parubiy, co-founder of the fascist Social-National Party of Ukraine (SNPU), served as the chairman of the Ukrainian parliament from April 2016 until August 2019. The ideology of Parubiy’s SNPU, which he co-founded in 1991 with Oleh Tyahnybok, now the current leader of the ultranationalist Svoboda party, was radical nationalism and neo-Nazism.

Parubiy was the “commander” of the Maidan Revolution, which led the various Maidan paramilitary units, and his forces played a material role in the U.S.-backed coup that led to the overthrow of Yanukovych.

The growth of a fascist movement in a country that was serving as the battleground for a new cold war between the U.S. and Russia should have raised many alarms. But rather than distancing themselves from these elements, Western leaders appeared to embrace them.

Indeed, then-U.S. Sen. John McCain met with ultranationalist leader Tyahnybok in the lead-up to the 2014 coup, and Vice President Joe Biden met with Tyahnybok shortly thereafter in April 2014. In June 2017, Parubiy was inexplicably invited to Washington, where he met with a number of American politicians, including McCain and House Speaker Paul Ryan.

Vice President Biden Becomes Ukraine Point Man
It was during events surrounding the February 2014 coup that Biden, then-vice president to Barack Obama, made his first appearance as a Ukraine power broker. Biden had been appointed as the Obama administration’s point man on Ukraine in early 2014.

An intercepted phone conversation between Victoria Nuland, who at the time was assistant secretary for European and Eurasian affairs in the Obama State Department, and then-U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt revealed that the State Department was actively pursuing the ouster of Yanukovych and the installation of opposition leader Yatsenyuk as prime minister. It isn’t known exactly when their discussion took place, only that it transpired prior to Feb. 7, 2014, when the conversation was leaked.

During that leaked discussion, Nuland noted that Jake Sullivan, the national security adviser to Vice President Biden, had informed her that “you need Biden” for the successful installation of Yatsenyuk, and Nuland concluded by telling Pyatt that “Biden’s willing.” Sullivan now serves as the national security adviser to President Biden.

Just two weeks later, on Feb. 22, 2014, Yanukovych was removed as president of Ukraine; within days, Yatsenyuk, Nuland’s preferred candidate, was installed as prime minister of Ukraine.

The U.S. government had effectively assisted in the removal of a democratically elected leader that was friendly to Russia with the installation of a leader who was selected by the United States.

The Kremlin, watching these events unfold, didn’t wait long to react, annexing Crimea a few days later.

Prosecutor Investigating Ukrainian Oligarch Is Fired
One of the members of Yanukovych’s government who lost his position in government as a result of the coup was Mykola Zlochevsky, the owner of Burisma Energy.

He had first served as minister of ecology and natural resources and later as deputy secretary for economic and social security. While he held power in government, Zlochevsky’s companies reportedly received an unusually large number of permits to extract oil and gas.

In April 2014, UK prosecutors seized $23.5 million in assets owned by Zlochevsky that were held at a London bank, alleging that Zlochevsky had engaged in criminal conduct in Ukraine.

Following the sudden loss of Zlochevsky’s government position, Burisma appointed Biden’s son, Hunter, to its board of directors. In addition to Hunter, Burisma also appointed Devon Archer, a Hunter Biden associate who was jailed in February 2022 in New York for his role in a scheme to defraud a Native American tribe of $60 million.

Both Hunter Biden and Archer were hired in April 2014 around the time Zlochevsky’s funds were seized in London. Although Hunter’s appointment wasn’t announced until May 12, 2014, Burisma posted a picture of Archer and Joe Biden on its website on April 17, 2014. The picture had been taken a day earlier at the White House.

During Hunter’s first year at Burisma, the company allegedly paid a $7 million bribe to Ukraine’s chief prosecutors’ office to help shut the UK investigation into Zlochevsky, according to a State Department email. The Ukrainian prosecutor’s office subsequently sent a letter to its UK counterparts stating there was no longer an active case against Zlochevsky. UK prosecutors were then forced to release Zlochevsky’s previously seized funds.

Notably, at the time the alleged bribe was paid in late 2014, Hunter Biden was listed by Burisma as the head of the company’s legal unit. The chief prosecutor, Vitaly Yarema, had previously served as the first vice prime minister of Ukraine following the 2014 U.S.-led coup. Yarema suddenly resigned in February 2015, barely two months later. Yarema’s replacement, Viktor Shokin, was brought out of retirement to become prosecutor general of Ukraine.

Initially, Shokin’s appointment was welcomed by U.S. officials, although he suddenly fell out of U.S. favor in late 2015—around the same time the head of Burisma’s board, Vadym Pozharskyi, emailed Hunter Biden on Nov. 2, 2015. In the email, Pozharskyi pressed Hunter Biden to produce “deliverables,” stating that the “ultimate purpose” was to “close down any cases or pursuits” against Burisma owner Zlochevsky in Ukraine.

Less than three weeks later, Joe Biden began demanding the removal of Shokin, who by this time had restarted the investigation into Zlochevsky and had also successfully sought an order from Ukrainian courts to seize Zlochevsky’s assets. Less than seven weeks after the seizure of Zlochevsky’s assets, on March 29, 2016, Shokin was fired.

Biden later famously bragged that he had leveraged $1 billion in U.S. government loan guarantees to force Shokin’s removal. To this day, Shokin has never been charged with any wrongdoing.

Joe Biden was privately warned by Amos Hochstein, a U.S. special envoy, about Hunter’s association with a corrupt oligarch. Biden is said to have ignored the warnings.

Clinton Campaign’s RussiaGate Hoax Further Impaired Relations
It was against this political backdrop, with Ukraine destabilized and Russia angered by a U.S.-backed coup, that Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign made the fateful decision to accuse Russia of interfering in the 2016 presidential election for the purposes of helping then-candidate Donald Trump. Clinton and her campaign’s politically driven accusations further impaired already-strained U.S.–Russia relations, and the effects of her actions are being felt to this day.

The use of Russia for the attack on Trump was two-pronged. First, the Clinton campaign hired British ex-spy Christopher Steele to write a fabricated dossier that portrayed Trump as a compromised puppet of the Kremlin. In order to provide backing for the dossier’s claims, operatives created a false data trail that purported to show communications between Trump and the Kremlin. In doing so, the Clinton campaign’s operatives fabricated false evidence of collusion between a candidate for president and the Kremlin.

These actions would continue after Trump became president, as evidenced by a Clinton campaign lawyer’s visit to the CIA to hand over more data from these same operatives in February 2017, as revealed in a court filing by special counsel John Durham.

But it wasn’t only the political campaign of Clinton that was making these accusations. The Intelligence Community, acting in a dangerous geopolitical game, assisted the Clinton campaign by backing her claims that Russia was interfering in our elections in order to help Trump.

The Clinton campaign’s creation of the false Trump–Russia collusion narrative, which culminated in the inclusion of Steele’s fictitious dossier in an official intelligence community assessment, effectively tied Trump’s hands with respect to dealings with Russia—raising serious national security implications.

The resulting myopic focus on Russia also shifted our nation’s attention away from a far more dangerous adversary, the Chinese Communist Party (CCP).

False Claims of Russia Laptop Plot
Four years later, during the 2020 presidential election, the Biden campaign introduced its own claims that Russia was meddling in the election, again in order to assist Trump.

When Hunter Biden’s abandoned hard drive emerged in the months preceding the election, it contained a litany of damaging emails and other incriminating information on the Biden family, including the Nov. 2, 2015, email from the head of Burisma’s board demanding that Hunter Biden shut down the investigations into Burisma’s owner. The laptop also contained other damaging information, including the younger Biden’s entanglements with the CCP.

Although the corporate media and major social media platforms immediately restricted—or in some cases, outright banned—sharing of articles regarding the laptop story, Trump publicly raised the issue during the second presidential debate on Oct. 22, 2020. In response, Biden chose to blame Russia for the emergence of his son’s hard drive.

Biden’s assertion traced back to similar claims from the highest levels of our intelligence community, including former CIA Director John Brennan, who claimed in a joint statement that Hunter Biden’s laptop “has all the classic earmarks of a Russian information operation.”

As it turned out later, the Hunter emails were authentic and not a Russian plot.

Adding to an already tense geopolitical situation, Biden held out NATO membership to Ukraine as recently as December, as did his secretary of state, Antony Blinken. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin went even further, saying the door was open to Ukraine for NATO membership during an October 2021 trip to Ukraine.

These promises, which were sure to provoke Russia, lay in stark contrast to the warnings from Biden’s own CIA director, who had previously stated that NATO membership for Ukraine was the “brightest of all red lines” for Russia.

The overarching national security goal of the United States should have centered around preventing Russia and China from forming further alliances. The vilification of Russia, driven in part by the self-serving actions of top U.S. officials such as Clinton and Biden, seriously undermined that goal.

With the outbreak of war in Ukraine and consequent total isolation of Russia from the West, that goal is no longer attainable.

The likely outcome is that Russia and China will grow even closer.


DougMacG

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Re: ET: Ten years of American fukkery in Ukraine
« Reply #981 on: October 17, 2022, 06:08:00 AM »
"The deterioration in our relations with Russia, in many ways, started with President George W. Bush in 2008, when he dangled before Ukraine the promise of NATO membership during the Bucharest declaration, boldly claiming, “We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO.”


   - Again, no mention of context, nearly a decade of Russian "belligerence and "bullying of its neighbors".

Botched and bungled by the Americans, doesn't mean Ukraine wasn't within its right of self defense and sovereignty to seek outside alliances for protection against an aggressor. IMHO.


"Although Russian President Vladimir Putin is rightly deserving of blame, "

   - Yet these accounts never seem to pin blame on Putin.

G M

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Re: ET: Ten years of American fukkery in Ukraine
« Reply #982 on: October 17, 2022, 06:56:47 AM »
"The deterioration in our relations with Russia, in many ways, started with President George W. Bush in 2008, when he dangled before Ukraine the promise of NATO membership during the Bucharest declaration, boldly claiming, “We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO.”


   - Again, no mention of context, nearly a decade of Russian "belligerence and "bullying of its neighbors".

Botched and bungled by the Americans, doesn't mean Ukraine wasn't within its right of self defense and sovereignty to seek outside alliances for protection against an aggressor. IMHO.


"Although Russian President Vladimir Putin is rightly deserving of blame, "

   - Yet these accounts never seem to pin blame on Putin.
"Ukraine wasn't within its right of self defense and sovereignty"

Like the Orange Revolution?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa

But while the gains of the orange-bedecked "chestnut revolution" are Ukraine's, the campaign is an American creation, a sophisticated and brilliantly conceived exercise in western branding and mass marketing that, in four countries in four years, has been used to try to salvage rigged elections and topple unsavoury regimes.

Funded and organised by the US government, deploying US consultancies, pollsters, diplomats, the two big American parties and US non-government organisations, the campaign was first used in Europe in Belgrade in 2000 to beat Slobodan Milosevic at the ballot box.

Richard Miles, the US ambassador in Belgrade, played a key role. And by last year, as US ambassador in Tbilisi, he repeated the trick in Georgia, coaching Mikhail Saakashvili in how to bring down Eduard Shevardnadze.

Ten months after the success in Belgrade, the US ambassador in Minsk, Michael Kozak, a veteran of similar operations in central America, notably in Nicaragua, organised a near identical campaign to try to defeat the Belarus hardman, Alexander Lukashenko.

That one failed. "There will be no Kostunica in Belarus," the Belarus president declared, referring to the victory in Belgrade.

But experience gained in Serbia, Georgia and Belarus has been invaluable in plotting to beat the regime of Leonid Kuchma in Kiev.

The operation - engineering democracy through the ballot box and civil disobedience - is now so slick that the methods have matured into a template for winning other people's elections.

If the above seems familiar, it's because they did the same thing here in 2020.


G M

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If we don't pump money and weapons into Ukraine...
« Reply #983 on: October 17, 2022, 07:26:27 AM »

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #984 on: October 17, 2022, 07:28:24 AM »
A regular poster on my FB page responds to my posting of something by Michael Yon:
===================

I'm not sure how he can say that the Ukraine is a nation of uneducated thugs. First, and foremost Ukraine is also home to over 800 institutes of higher education and has a varied economy, concentrated mostly in and around big cities such as Kyiv, Zaporizhzhia, Dnipro, Lviv and Odessa.

Putinbots often malign the Ukraine as a neo Nazi state which simply isn't true, except in the minds of Putin and pro Russia Americans. Putin said we must cull the neo Nazi's from the Ukraine. However, during Ukraine's post-Soviet history, the far-right has remained on the political periphery and been largely excluded from national politics since independence in 1991. Unlike most Eastern European countries which saw far-right groups become permanent fixtures in their countries' politics during the decline and fall of the Soviet Union in 1991, the national electoral support for far-right parties in Ukraine only rarely exceeded 3% of the popular vote.

Third, while Russia is currently trying to take down the Ukraine power grid, and starve it's citizens. The truth is that Ukrainian soldiers are being equipped with cold weather clothes and gear from cold weather countries like Sweden, Finland, and Canada. At the moment at least two nations are training Ukrainian conscripts to fight through the winter. (Germany and England) Meanwhile and with winter approaching aid organization are gearing up to make sure Ukrainian civilians make it through. Using a total of 27 cargo trucks, UNICEF was able to access the southern Ukrainian city and preposition water purification equipment, sanitation and hygiene supplies, to prevent sickness due to lack of clean water and sanitation – a major threat to vulnerable families caught in war.

Around 110,000 people will benefit said UNICEF, from the filters and chemicals which were part of the aid delivery, along with hygiene kits which should help keep some 14,000 children healthy. “UNICEF is delivering life-saving supplies to important areas including Odessa and surrounds, so they can quickly respond to the most vulnerable families who are affected by the ongoing fighting and shelling in eastern Ukraine,” said UNICEF Ukraine Representative Murat Sahin.

“Provision of safe water supplies and hygiene kits will help an estimated 50,000 children stay healthy in these challenging circumstances.”

As well as Odesa city, these supplies will be delivered to regions close to the fighting, including Mykolaiv, which has come under heavy shelling in recent weeks. Additionally, the supplies will contribute to improving the living conditions of internally displaced families and children, many of whom have fled to Odessa from war-affected districts. "

€19,088,108 WORTH OF AID

As the Russian war in Ukraine nears its six-month anniversary, aid is constantly changing and adapting to the needs on the ground. Two hundred of our colleagues are working in Ukraine, where we have a presence in nearly every region. Currently, our primary focus is on distributing direct financial assistance to internal refugees and other people at risk. We continue to provide food aid, especially in the south, where people fleeing fighting in other areas of Ukraine have sought safety. We have started to provide ready meals in collective centres, and we continue to supply drinking water to people living near the front line. We are also preparing for the winter—we know from our experiences in other war-torn countries that it is vital to prepare for the winter months well in advance.

In the last month alone, we have delivered non-perishable food for 7,600 people and jerry cans of drinking water for 7,100 people to the Kharkiv region. Similarly, in the Dnipropetrovsk region, 6,000 people received help from us, and another 3,200 people were provided with hygiene supplies. We delivered 124 beds with mattresses and bedding to collective centres. However, we are not only focusing on eastern Ukraine; in Kyiv and the surrounding villages, we have delivered food for 11,000 people and to almost 30,000 people in the north. https://reliefweb.int/.../repairing-9000-houses-and-water...

I could go on, but in short the writer of the blog might be a reporter, but right now all he is delivering is Russian based propaganda. Propaganda ments to convince people to give up, even though Russia is losing the war. The Ukrainian people are used to cold winter, after all it is their country. And with the help of it's NATO neighbors, and organizations like UNICEF, reliefweb and others the Ukraine will make it through the winter in far better shape than Russia, and her ill armed, and clothed soldiers....

G M

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #985 on: October 17, 2022, 07:35:38 AM »
It's hard to say who will steal more of the relief supplies, UNICEF or the local mafiyas.

 :roll:

A regular poster on my FB page responds to my posting of something by Michael Yon:
===================

I'm not sure how he can say that the Ukraine is a nation of uneducated thugs. First, and foremost Ukraine is also home to over 800 institutes of higher education and has a varied economy, concentrated mostly in and around big cities such as Kyiv, Zaporizhzhia, Dnipro, Lviv and Odessa.

Putinbots often malign the Ukraine as a neo Nazi state which simply isn't true, except in the minds of Putin and pro Russia Americans. Putin said we must cull the neo Nazi's from the Ukraine. However, during Ukraine's post-Soviet history, the far-right has remained on the political periphery and been largely excluded from national politics since independence in 1991. Unlike most Eastern European countries which saw far-right groups become permanent fixtures in their countries' politics during the decline and fall of the Soviet Union in 1991, the national electoral support for far-right parties in Ukraine only rarely exceeded 3% of the popular vote.

Third, while Russia is currently trying to take down the Ukraine power grid, and starve it's citizens. The truth is that Ukrainian soldiers are being equipped with cold weather clothes and gear from cold weather countries like Sweden, Finland, and Canada. At the moment at least two nations are training Ukrainian conscripts to fight through the winter. (Germany and England) Meanwhile and with winter approaching aid organization are gearing up to make sure Ukrainian civilians make it through. Using a total of 27 cargo trucks, UNICEF was able to access the southern Ukrainian city and preposition water purification equipment, sanitation and hygiene supplies, to prevent sickness due to lack of clean water and sanitation – a major threat to vulnerable families caught in war.

Around 110,000 people will benefit said UNICEF, from the filters and chemicals which were part of the aid delivery, along with hygiene kits which should help keep some 14,000 children healthy. “UNICEF is delivering life-saving supplies to important areas including Odessa and surrounds, so they can quickly respond to the most vulnerable families who are affected by the ongoing fighting and shelling in eastern Ukraine,” said UNICEF Ukraine Representative Murat Sahin.

“Provision of safe water supplies and hygiene kits will help an estimated 50,000 children stay healthy in these challenging circumstances.”

As well as Odesa city, these supplies will be delivered to regions close to the fighting, including Mykolaiv, which has come under heavy shelling in recent weeks. Additionally, the supplies will contribute to improving the living conditions of internally displaced families and children, many of whom have fled to Odessa from war-affected districts. "

€19,088,108 WORTH OF AID

As the Russian war in Ukraine nears its six-month anniversary, aid is constantly changing and adapting to the needs on the ground. Two hundred of our colleagues are working in Ukraine, where we have a presence in nearly every region. Currently, our primary focus is on distributing direct financial assistance to internal refugees and other people at risk. We continue to provide food aid, especially in the south, where people fleeing fighting in other areas of Ukraine have sought safety. We have started to provide ready meals in collective centres, and we continue to supply drinking water to people living near the front line. We are also preparing for the winter—we know from our experiences in other war-torn countries that it is vital to prepare for the winter months well in advance.

In the last month alone, we have delivered non-perishable food for 7,600 people and jerry cans of drinking water for 7,100 people to the Kharkiv region. Similarly, in the Dnipropetrovsk region, 6,000 people received help from us, and another 3,200 people were provided with hygiene supplies. We delivered 124 beds with mattresses and bedding to collective centres. However, we are not only focusing on eastern Ukraine; in Kyiv and the surrounding villages, we have delivered food for 11,000 people and to almost 30,000 people in the north. https://reliefweb.int/.../repairing-9000-houses-and-water...

I could go on, but in short the writer of the blog might be a reporter, but right now all he is delivering is Russian based propaganda. Propaganda ments to convince people to give up, even though Russia is losing the war. The Ukrainian people are used to cold winter, after all it is their country. And with the help of it's NATO neighbors, and organizations like UNICEF, reliefweb and others the Ukraine will make it through the winter in far better shape than Russia, and her ill armed, and clothed soldiers....

DougMacG

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Re: If we don't pump money and weapons into Ukraine...
« Reply #986 on: October 17, 2022, 12:09:16 PM »
$9 trillion for Iraq and Afghan wars does not add up, right?  If false, it should come down.


G M

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Re: If we don't pump money and weapons into Ukraine...
« Reply #987 on: October 17, 2022, 09:38:45 PM »
$9 trillion for Iraq and Afghan wars does not add up, right?  If false, it should come down.

Feel free to contact Joe Kent to see his source for that number. I did send him 100 bucks for his campaign.

G M

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Fight to the last Ukrainian!
« Reply #988 on: October 18, 2022, 08:58:47 AM »

DougMacG

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Re: Fight to the last Ukrainian!
« Reply #989 on: October 18, 2022, 09:20:33 AM »
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/one-third-ukraines-power-stations-destroyed-who-warns-brutal-winter-coming

Make the world safe for No-show jobs for the DC Uniparty's children !

Another Putin war crime against civilians. 

As an aside, I noticed that the return of US troops from Iraq and Afghanistan didn't make the US southern border more secure or shrink the deficit.  Weird.

G M

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Re: Fight to the last Ukrainian!
« Reply #990 on: October 18, 2022, 09:44:05 AM »
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/one-third-ukraines-power-stations-destroyed-who-warns-brutal-winter-coming

Make the world safe for No-show jobs for the DC Uniparty's children !

Another Putin war crime against civilians. 

As an aside, I noticed that the return of US troops from Iraq and Afghanistan didn't make the US southern border more secure or shrink the deficit.  Weird.

Was it a war crime when we took out Iraq’s infrastructure in the opening of the Iraq war?

Putin tried to avoid this, we forced it to this point.

This is on NATO and the deep state/GAE.

Crafty_Dog

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GPF: Belarus feeling froggy
« Reply #991 on: October 18, 2022, 05:07:33 PM »
In Ukraine, a Russia-Belarus Troop Deployment Fuels Fears of a Northern Incursion
8 MIN READOct 18, 2022 | 20:34 GMT


Russia and Belarus will seek to further grow the threat to Ukraine's northern border in the coming weeks, but a Russian ground invasion from Belarus or Belarusian forces joining the war remains unlikely because of Belarus's own calculations. A surge of military activity in Belarus over the past week is fueling fears in neighboring Ukraine that Russia is preparing to launch a renewed thrust toward Kyiv — potentially with the help of Belarusian forces. The week began with Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko's Oct. 10 announcement that he had agreed to deploy a joint contingent of Russian and Belarusian forces in response to alleged threats from Ukraine. On Oct. 14, Lukashenko then announced the introduction of a ''counter-terrorist operation regime'' — the implications of which are unclear — and that the deployment of the new Russia-Belarus joint force group, including to his country's southern borders, was connected to an ''elevated terrorist threat'' and alleged ''aggravations'' from NATO and Ukrainian forces. On Oct. 15, the Belarusian defense ministry said the first Russian soldiers who will take part in the new joint force had arrived in the country, and on Oct. 16 claimed that nearly 9,000 Russian soldiers would be deployed to Belarus as part of the new regional grouping of Russian and Belarusian troops in accordance with the two countries' alliance, known as the Union State alliance. The deployment and other factors — such as rumors that Belarus is conducting a military mobilization — have raised concerns that Russia is readying to launch another offensive against Kyiv after failing to seize the Ukrainian capital earlier this year, and that Belarus is also readying to effectively join the war on Russia's side.

On Oct. 13, the Belarusian opposition newspaper Nasha Nivathat reported that Lukashenko had decided to conduct a ''covert mobilization'' under the guise of checking military fitness and summoning conscripts among rural Belarusians, citing unnamed sources in the president's administration. The report came a day after Belarus's parliament approved legal changes canceling military draft deferments for students abroad who were not sent to foreign education institutions by the state.

Russian forces' buildup in Belarus is likely intended to draw some Ukrainian military resources from the south to the north, free up Russia's own training grounds, and use the threat of an invasion from the north to gain leverage during potential peace negotiations with Kyiv. On Oct. 14, Russian President Vladimir Putin griped that the negotiation process with Ukraine had stopped immediately after Russian troops withdrew from northern Ukraine at the end of March. If Putin believes that Russia's retreat from Kyiv earlier this year prompted Ukraine to abandon peace talks, he may also believe that weakening Ukraine's position and forcing it back to the negotiating table can be best achieved in the near-to-medium term by threatening Ukraine's capital again — or at least cultivating this perception in order to make the threat appear more plausible in coming weeks. For Moscow, a higher number of Russian troops in Belarus or the possibility of Belarus joining the invasion helps maintain the threat of an assault on Kyiv. Additionally, Russia likely views Belarus as a preferred location to train its newly drafted Russian reservists (and, in turn, reduce and prevent overcrowding at its own bases and training grounds) amid Moscow's ongoing military mobilization. To that end, the joint contingent and Belarus's threatening actions could force Kyiv to deploy some of its reserves toward Belarus rather than along the front in southern Ukraine. Such a diversion of Ukrainian resources, so Moscow hopes, may help Russian forces stop Ukrainian advances and seize the initiative in the south, as Russia's newly mobilized troops eventually reach the front in the coming weeks and months.

During the G-7 summit on Oct. 11, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky proposed deploying a mission of peacekeepers on his country's northern border to rule out possible provocations against Ukraine from Russian or Belarusian forces in Belarus.

Belarus, for its part, is agreeing to increase the threat to northern Ukraine in exchange for Russian economic support. While Belarus has supported Russia since the start of the war, Ukraine never perceived Minsk's role in the conflict as a serious threat. But Belarus's recent activity suggests it's trying to change that assumption, as Minsk tries to increase its support for Russia and obtain additional political and economic concessions without intervening directly in the conflict. In fact, the deployment of the Russian-Belarusian joint force group to the Ukrainian border came after Lukashenko and Putin met in Sochi on Sept. 26-27 to discuss deepening their countries' economic, security and political cooperation. During those meetings, Lukashenko likely received Putin's preliminary approval for the $1.5 billion ''import replacement'' loan from Russia that Minsk announced it had secured on Oct. 7 — just days before the announcement of Russia's new troop deployment to Belarus. This indicates that Lukashenko is increasing the perceived threat of his forces joining the war against Ukraine in exchange for additional financial support from Russia to prop up Belarus's heavily sanctioned economy. But for such an arrangement to be worth its cost for Russia, Minsk must follow Moscow's instruction to maintain the credibility of that threat, hence the surge in military activity immediately following the loan's announcement.

On Oct. 9, videos from Belarusian media showed 28 Ural trucks and 8 T-72 tanks moving from Belarus to Russia, which analysts later determined were destined for eastern Ukraine. The incident was the latest example of Russia removing materials from Belarusian stockpiles, and strongly suggests Belarus is not preparing to actually join the fight in Ukraine, as moving precious equipment out of the country is not a rational action for a nation preparing to go to war.

On Sept. 16, as part of the two states' further integration within the Union State, Russia and Belarus signed a draft agreement on a general harmonization on the collection of the value-added tax and excise duties. The move was widely interpreted as giving Russia control over Belarus's tax customs policies and underscores Minsk's increasing reliance on Moscow.

Russia is unlikely to quickly accumulate enough forces to launch a successful attack against Kyiv, which will reduce the immediate risk of a renewed Russian thrust into northern Ukraine through Belarus. According to NATO estimates, at least 30,000 Russian troops — including many of Russia's most elite units — took part in Russia's attempt to seize the Ukrainian capital in the early stages of the war, which failed despite Kyiv being relatively undefended, as most of Ukraine's equipment and experienced soldiers were concentrated in the country's east at the time. The Russian forces now arriving in Belarus, by contrast, appear to be largely composed of newly mobilized Russian forces, and they are arriving at Belarusian training grounds largely bereft of heavy equipment. On Oct. 14, Lukashenko also said that ''demanding 10,000-15,000 soldiers from Russia'' was not necessary at this time — suggesting that Russia may begin with a relatively small deployment of roughly that size, even if it becomes larger in the coming months. In addition, Ukraine's forces are currently better equipped and fortified than they were when Russia first tried to take Kyiv, which further indicates the current Russian troops in Belarus are unlikely to succeed where their predecessors failed. In fact, the number of Russian forces needed to realize another attack on the Ukrainian capital would be much better used in the more favorable terrain of southeastern Ukraine than the swampy marshes between Kyiv and Belarus. Moreover, while Russia will still seek to grow the threat of an attack on Kyiv in the coming weeks and months with many more forces and equipment, Ukraine and the West will likely have ample warning to prepare and neutralize this threat.

Belarus remains unlikely to join the war because its forces cannot guarantee a Russian victory, while their participation would destabilize Belarus and leave Lukashenko without leverage vis-a-vis Moscow. The Belarusian armed forces total just around 48,000 combat personnel and are poorly equipped and inexperienced. This force is widely believed incapable of altering the trajectory of the war by successfully attacking Ukraine alongside Russian forces — even if Belarus conducts mobilization to bring tens of thousands of poorly motivated additional soldiers into the war. Lukashenko would likely only consider joining the war if he believed his forces could actually ensure a decisive Russian victory and force Kyiv to accept the loss of its territory, and, ideally, prompt some sort of pro-Russian regime change in Kyiv. But Lukashenko likely does not believe his forces could accomplish this, and it is unclear what Putin could offer to convince Lukashenko to bring Belarusian troops into the war. Coercion of Lukashenko — by, for example, withholding economic support or forcing Belarus into the war — would likely only further destabilize Lukashenko's regime, and make keeping Belarus in Moscow's orbit more politically tenuous and expensive. Lukashenko is only likely to bring his country into the war if he believes it's necessary to preserve his own regime (and, by extension, Putin's) and ensure a Russian victory, but both of these conditions are currently unsatisfied and will likely remain so. Therefore, Minsk and Moscow are likely to engage in provocative military deployments and maneuvers in Belarus and possibly even false-flag attacks on its own soil to increase the perceived threat, but Belarus remains unlikely to join the war because the potential benefits are extremely limited, while the risks for Minsk and Moscow are enormous.


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Crafty_Dog

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WT: Putin weaponizes winter against Ukraine
« Reply #994 on: October 19, 2022, 01:43:09 AM »
Putin weaponizes winter against civilians

Drones, missiles take out power, clean water in cities across Ukraine

BY BEN WOLFGANG THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Russian forces on Tuesday accelerated their assault on Ukrainian power and water infrastructure in what Pentagon officials called a concerted effort “to inflict pain” on civilians as winter looms.

Whether it will be enough to turn the tide of a military campaign that has gone badly for the Kremlin is another question.

Russian drones and missiles hit the capital of Kyiv and other key cities across Ukraine, specifically power plants and other infrastructure. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said 30% of his country’s power stations had been destroyed over eight days, leading to rolling blackouts.

The calculated attacks, Western defense officials said, are the latest proof of Moscow’s evolving war plan in Ukraine. Having lost significant ground to a military counteroffensive, Russian President Vladimir Putin is embracing a darker strategy of cutting off Ukrainian citizens’ access to basic services such as electricity and clean water as winter sets in, Western officials said.

Kyiv and other cities in central and western Ukraine that were relatively quiet after the initial Russian invasion was repulsed are once again facing daily reminders that their country is at war.

The increasingly brutal attacks on nonmilitary targets appear to have slammed shut whatever window may have been open for diplomatic negotiations on a cease-fire.

“Another kind of Russian terrorist attacks: targeting [Ukraine’s] energy and critical infrastructure,” Mr. Zelenskyy said in a Twitter post. “No space left for negotiations with Putin’s regime.”

Some of Russia’s offensive military arsenal has been drained after nearly eight months of war, but Western officials say Mr. Putin has partially replenished his stockpiles with deliveries of combat drones from Iran. Those “kamikaze” drones have played a crucial role in Russia’s attacks on civilian targets, and Tehran appears poised to ramp up its military assistance.

Ukraine and its Western allies have widely

dismissed Russian and Iranian denials of the weapons pipeline.

Citing multiple Iranian officials, Reuters reported Tuesday that Iran agreed to ship more ground-based missiles and armed drones to the Russian military. The shipments include the short-range Zolfaghar ballistic missiles and Shahed- 136 drones. The drones have been central to Russia’s attacks on Kyiv and other cities.

Despite videos displaying what appear to be clear signs of Iranian missile technology from targeted Ukrainian cities, officials in Tehran insisted Tuesday that they are not taking sides in the conflict and simply want peace.

“Where [the weapons] are being used is not the seller’s issue. We do not take sides in the Ukraine crisis like the West. We want an end to the crisis through diplomatic means,” an Iranian diplomat told Reuters.

British Defense Secretary Ben Wallace made a hastily arranged visit to Washington, reportedly to share intelligence on the emerging Russian-Iranian nexus. According to speculation, the drone and missile shipments could result in a full suspension of the faltering talks with Iran over reviving the 2015 nuclear deal repudiated by President Trump.

The Russian attacks have given new urgency to Mr. Zelenskyy’s plea for the West to provide a comprehensive air shield that could neutralize Moscow’s ballistic missile capabilities and its expanding fleet of Iranian drones. Pentagon officials said they were in contact with Kyiv and would work to bolster Ukraine’s air defense systems, though it was not clear how quickly fresh capabilities might arrive on the front lines.

“This is not something new for Russia. They continue to inflict damage on innocent civilians, on civilian infrastructure, as they fail to achieve their strategic objectives along the front line,” Brig. Gen. Patrick Ryder told reporters at the Pentagon on Tuesday.

“They’re obviously trying to inflict pain on the civilian society as well as try to have an impact on Ukrainian forces. What we’ve seen so far is Ukrainian resiliency in their ability to get things like their power grids back online quickly,” he said. “In the meantime, our focus will continue to be on working with them to identify what their needs are, to include things like air defense. We’ll work to try to get those capabilities to them as quickly as possible.”

The situation appears most dire in eastern Ukraine, the epicenter of fighting. In the Donetsk province — which Russia claims to have annexed but which officially remains a part of Ukraine — local authorities have urged residents to evacuate as soon as possible. Gas and water services, they said, likely will not be restored by winter.

Near-constant fighting in the northeastern city of Kharkiv and other major population centers have destroyed infrastructure and badly damaged homes. In addition to the massive challenges facing Ukraine’s power generation system, many roofs, doors and windows are damaged or destroyed.

Western military observers said the shift in Russian strategy stems from frustration. Mr. Putin’s army, previously considered one of the world’s best, has made repeated missteps and strategic blunders in Ukraine. At home, anger toward the war effort has grown steadily over the past several months. It reached a near fever pitch last month after Mr. Putin announced the call-up of as many as 300,000 reservists to refill Russia’s depleted ranks in Ukraine.

The wave of air attacks targeting Ukrainian citizens has coincided with Mr. Putin’s appointment of Gen. Sergei Surovikin as the commander of what Russian officials still refer to as the “special military operation.”

In his first television interview since his appointment, Gen. Surovikin effectively confirmed that Ukrainian advances in the east and south had put Russian defenders on their heels.

“The enemy continually attempts to attack the positions of Russian troops,” Gen. Surovikin said. He acknowledged that the situation was particularly difficult around the southern city of Kherson, which Russian occupying forces were struggling to hold.

“Further actions and plans regarding the city of Kherson will depend on the developing military-tactical situation, which is not easy,” the general said. “We will act consciously, in a timely manner, without ruling out difficult decisions.”

With prospects for a decisive battlefi eld victory dwindling, Mr. Putin now appears set on using winter’s chill as an ally in defeating Ukraine, or at least ensuring so much misery for the population that Mr. Zelenskyy’s government will make concessions to Moscow. “It is highly likely that a key objective of [the Russian attacks] is to cause widespread damage to Ukraine’s energy distribution network. As Russia has suffered battlefield setbacks since August, it has highly likely gained a greater willingness to strike civilian infrastructure in addition to Ukrainian military targets,” the British Defense Ministry said in a Twitter post.

As Ukraine prepares for winter, other parts of Europe are facing their own potential energy crisis after Russia slashed natural gas deliveries to the continent this year. Europe’s energy supply faces more uncertainty after explosions last month rocked the Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines, which stretch from Russia to Europe.

Some European officials have publicly suggested that Russia is responsible for the explosions, but the Kremlin has denied involvement.

Danish police said Tuesday that the two pipelines sustained “extensive damage” and at least 165 feet of metal pipe appear to be missing.

“It is very serious, and this is by no means a coincidence. It doesn’t just seem planned, but very well planned,” Danish Defense Minister Morten Bodskov said

DougMacG

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Re: WT: Putin weaponizes winter against Ukraine
« Reply #995 on: October 19, 2022, 07:36:45 AM »
"As Russia has suffered battlefield setbacks since August, it has highly likely gained a greater willingness to strike civilian infrastructure in addition to Ukrainian military targets,” the British Defense Ministry said..."


Putin couldn't defeat the military so now he targets the civilians.  Starving people and freezing people are his objectives.

They should reserve a chair for him at The Hague, and hopefully someone can deliver him there.

The "bridge", BTW, was a military target, and to my knowledge Ukraine has attacked nothing in Russia.

The only attacks outside the border of Ukraine were to the pipelines - and we don't know who did it.

G M

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Re: WT: Putin weaponizes winter against Ukraine
« Reply #996 on: October 19, 2022, 09:10:40 AM »
It's totally different when we do it!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1991/06/23/allied-air-war-struck-broadly-in-iraq/e469877b-b1c1-44a9-bfe7-084da4e38e41/

"As Russia has suffered battlefield setbacks since August, it has highly likely gained a greater willingness to strike civilian infrastructure in addition to Ukrainian military targets,” the British Defense Ministry said..."


Putin couldn't defeat the military so now he targets the civilians.  Starving people and freezing people are his objectives.

They should reserve a chair for him at The Hague, and hopefully someone can deliver him there.

The "bridge", BTW, was a military target, and to my knowledge Ukraine has attacked nothing in Russia.

The only attacks outside the border of Ukraine were to the pipelines - and we don't know who did it.

DougMacG

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Re: WT: Putin weaponizes winter against Ukraine
« Reply #997 on: October 19, 2022, 10:19:03 AM »
Comparable winter - in Iraq?  Seriously?

Gulf War I, we went too far liberating Kuwait?  We targeted civilians?  No we didn't. 

What is the analogy?  WE WEREN'T THE INVADING FORCE. 

Was it Kuwait's fault? Angle drilling?  Were they really a province of Saddam's?

Given the opportunity to blame current war on Putin I hear crickets.  But blame America for allegedly going too far in the liberation of a sovereign country is somehow comparable? 

I beg to differ.

G M

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Re: WT: Putin weaponizes winter against Ukraine
« Reply #998 on: October 19, 2022, 10:45:44 AM »
Did any Iraqi civilians die as a result of us targeting the infrastructure?

Comparable winter - in Iraq?  Seriously?

Gulf War I, we went too far liberating Kuwait?  We targeted civilians?  No we didn't. 

What is the analogy?  WE WEREN'T THE INVADING FORCE. 

Was it Kuwait's fault? Angle drilling?  Were they really a province of Saddam's?

Given the opportunity to blame current war on Putin I hear crickets.  But blame America for allegedly going too far in the liberation of a sovereign country is somehow comparable? 

I beg to differ.

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #999 on: October 19, 2022, 10:53:23 AM »
I agree with Doug that the moral bases of these two cases are quite different, but as far as the Rules of War go, it does seem fair to note our actions as well.

I do want to make clear though that there is nothing close to moral parity between what we did in Iraq, and what Putin does in Ukraine (and did in Grozny and elsewhere).  America's record of morality in war is one of which to be quite proud.

PS:  Just watched Gen. Keane talking about Russian bunker busters being used on hospitals etc.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2022, 11:42:17 AM by Crafty_Dog »