Author Topic: Insurrection (Including J6) and the Second American Civil War  (Read 278375 times)

Crafty_Dog

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Tucker kicks Sen. Ted Cruz's ass
« Reply #1350 on: January 07, 2022, 03:30:37 AM »



G M

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DougMacG

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Babylon Bee sums it up
« Reply #1356 on: January 08, 2022, 12:12:17 AM »
Nation Observes 0 Seconds Of Silence To Read The Names Of Those Killed By Trump Supporters On January 6th.

https://babylonbee.com/news/nation-observes-0-seconds-of-silence-to-read-the-names-of-those-killed-by-trump-supporters-on-january-6th

---------
And this:

Make January 6 Ashli Babbitt Remembrance Day.

https://www.theconstitutionalconservatives.com/editorials/make-jan-6-ashli-babbitt-remembrance-day
« Last Edit: January 08, 2022, 12:17:07 AM by DougMacG »

ccp

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Re: Insurrection and the Second American Civil War
« Reply #1357 on: January 08, 2022, 11:52:00 AM »
"Make January 6 Ashli Babbitt Remembrance Day."

How about we bring down George Floyd statues and put one up for her?

G M

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Re: Insurrection and the Second American Civil War
« Reply #1358 on: January 08, 2022, 12:03:33 PM »
"Make January 6 Ashli Babbitt Remembrance Day."

How about we bring down George Floyd statues and put one up for her?

Didn’t we have to destroy all the Floyd memorials after the BLM Christmas Massacre in Wisconsin? Isn’t that the rule?

G M

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Crafty_Dog

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Crafty_Dog

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Re: Insurrection and the Second American Civil War
« Reply #1362 on: January 10, 2022, 01:34:49 AM »
A question for you GM:

How do you assess Trump's actions during this time? 

Entirely correct, or something other than that?

Here is the piece-- for the record there are passages in here with which I disagree, and there are others in search of an analysis more nuanced than simply Trump Good or Orange Man Bad:

================================================



To say the president’s condemnable behavior triggered the riot is not the same as saying he intended or incited a riot.

NRPLUS MEMBER ARTICLE
On this January 6 anniversary, I most vividly remember the shock and fury of watching the Capitol riot unfold, the instant recognition of a blight on our history. It is America’s proud boast to have made the transition of power through peaceful, lawful means a norm for modern republics. One needn’t buy the Democrats’ politicized “insurrection” distortion to grasp that something precious is forever tarnished.

It’s not gone. The norm endures. The media-Democrat complex’s “insurrection” pap is designed to exaggerate a rare episode of politically motivated violence by the incoherent populist Right, the better to obscure the thrum of violence commited by the radical Left, where “by any means necessary” is a venerated strategy for destroying norms. But unlike the months-long siege of looting, deadly brutality, and antinomian madness that followed George Floyd’s killing (at the hands of a racially mixed group of cops, from a Minneapolis Police Department then headed by an African-American progressive), the Capitol riot was a flash in the pan.

It lasted a little over five hours. The violence was real, but the spectacle was more adolescent tantrum than existential threat. There was never any chance that our democratic republic would be extinguished, that the 2020 election would be reversed. The Constitution, no frail thing, easily prevailed. It’s seen a lot worse.

Had doing so been necessary, lawmakers would have reconvened at an alternate location. It was unnecessary because damage to the Capitol was minimal — as opposed to damage, say, to the World Trade Center on 9/11 or the Oklahoma City federal courthouse in 1995, the targets of terrorist attacks that the Left risibly says pale in comparison to January 6; or as opposed to, say, Minneapolis, Kenosha, and Portland, following the Left’s anti-police riots. On the very evening of January 6, Congress was able to reconvene in the seat of government. There was never any chance that the state-certified electoral votes would not be counted, or that Joe Biden would not be acknowledged as the next president.

MORE IN CAPITOL RIOT
Ted Cruz Debases Himself for the Base
What Happened on January 6
On Entrapment, Instigation, and January 6
Security forces were undermanned due to supervisory incompetence. Absent that provocative laxity, the melee probably would not have happened — or, at a minimum, any forcible trouble would have been put down rapidly. In the event, 140 police were reportedly injured, and though some of those injuries were serious (bone fractures, concussions, burns, a mild heart attack), most were comparatively minor contusions and lacerations. Although Democrats persist in exaggerating the death toll — precisely because the uprising was nothing like a terrorist attack, much less an actual insurrection — only one killing is inarguably attributable to the uprising: that of Ashli Babbitt, an unarmed Trump-supporting female rioter who was gunned down by Capitol Police lieutenant Michael Byrd, who was guarding a lobby leading to the House chamber.

Democrats strain to inflate the lethality of the event by attributing to it the deaths of four police officers who committed suicide in the months after the riot — despite the absence of any proven connection. Also added to the tally are the deaths of three pro-Trump fanatics — two who expired in the excitement from cardiac episodes, one who appears to have a history of abusing drugs but who may also have been beaten and trampled — even though they are better understood as perpetrators, not victims.

Most scurrilously, Democrats claimed that rioters killed officer Brian Sicknick by bashing him in the head with a fire extinguisher, a claim they repeated in an impeachment-trial brief weeks after it was known that Sicknick, whose remains showed no evidence of blunt-force trauma, had died from two strokes suffered many hours after the riot — he returned to his office after the riot and complained (as did many other police) that he’d been pepper-sprayed but told his brother that he was otherwise fine. Democrats have never explained why they continued to peddle the false story about the circumstances of Sicknick’s death (which they seared into the nation’s consciousness by having the officer’s remains honored in a solemn Capitol rite — see, e.g., NPR: “Brian Sicknick, Capitol Officer Slain by Mob, Lies in Honor in Rotunda”). But not only has the Justice Department charged none of its 725 January 6 defendants with slaying Sicknick; the complaint filed against two men allegedly complicit in assaulting Sicknick with pepper spray does not even mention that Sicknick died.

This is not to minimize the gravity of January 6. That should be clear by our reference to the Capitol riot. How ironic to have to make this point given the umbrage that Democrats take when their own riots are described as riots rather than “mostly peaceful protests.” The point here is to place January 6 in its proper context, to combat its distortion into either an insurrection or, as Trump acolytes would have it, a display of patriotism, of the real America’s lashing out against Washington’s progressive consensus — unless, of course, it was an inside job.

January 6 was an unpatriotic infamy in two acts. The first involved political and legal subversion, the second forcible subversion. The two are factually intertwined: The latter doesn’t happen without the former. But the insurmountable problem for Democrats and others whose understandable loathing of Donald Trump has shorted out their analytical facility is that Trump, the driving force of Act I, is not criminally responsible for the violence of Act II.

The oddity here is that Trump’s best defense is that his actions were “merely” impeachable, not actionably seditious.

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And they surely were impeachable — and would have had a better chance of being accountable as such, by a more broadly bipartisan House impeachment article and a conviction at the Senate trial, if Democrats had not incompetently undermined the impeachment in their zeal to brand the riot as a white-supremacist “insurrection” that Trump “incited.”

In the weeks following the election, the then-president conducted a relentless campaign of deceit (which appears to have morphed into self-delusion along the way), hoping to maintain power. To be sure, it would be perilous were such a thing to be done by any president, given the immense power of the office. Still, this president’s campaign never had a prayer.

Trump’s gambit faced overwhelming bipartisan congressional opposition (outside a core of opportunistic loyalists who may hope to benefit politically from his ardent supporters). The armed forces would not have supported him in a million years. For all his bravado, he lacked the nerve to attempt a real coup — the kind that requires political and military allegiance. Instead, as was his wont, he laid waste to the political norms by which, for the good of the country, the clearly defeated candidate concedes to the victor and helps transition the government to a new administration.

For the most part, Trump’s charade was limited to lawsuits that were largely frivolous. That is, they were top-lined by allegations of massive fraud, from which his legal team retreated whenever invited by judges to prove them; beyond that, the legal claims mainly involved arguable election-law irregularities that even if provable (and most weren’t) would not have been sufficient to reverse the election result in contested states. Does this mean the election was free of fraud concerns? No election ever is. What was alarming about the 2020 election, though, were the Covid-driven voting procedures that were legal but imprudent. That may be a reason to amend or clarify the law before the next election; it is not a basis to overturn the election that the dubious but lawful procedures controlled.

Beyond futile litigation, Trump’s “stop the steal” theater involved putting pressure on Republican officials — elected and bureaucratic, federal and state — to run roughshod over their legal and constitutional duties. In the contested states, the Trump team tried to persuade legislators and Trump-dominated GOP organizations to delegitimize and undo the popular vote. This included having these collaborators purport to appoint alternative slates of Trump electors, a laughable ploy that had no legal effect — these ersatz slates having been neither elected nor certified under controlling state law. The point of this escapade was to pretend that these states won by Biden had designated competing Biden and Trump electoral slates; therefore at the January 6 joint session of Congress, the thinking went, Trump loyalists would have grounds to object to the counting of electoral votes from these states. It was a daft scheme, which had no more chance of succeeding than the Democrats’ similarly inane objections to state electoral slates pledged to Presidents George W. Bush and Trump after their election victories.

The former president tried to co-opt the Justice Department into his plot, but he backed down fecklessly when the adults at DOJ challenged him. He tried to coerce, for example, state election officials in Georgia to flip votes based on unsubstantiated fraud claims, and state lawmakers in Michigan to throw the election to the Republican-controlled legislature. He was firmly rebuffed at every turn. By Republicans.

The big legal theory, if you want to call it that, involved empowering Vice President Mike Pence to reject state-certified electoral votes. That is the constitutional significance of January 6: the convening of the joint session, at which the vice president’s role (and, for that matter, Congress’s) is strictly ministerial. The heretofore unknown theory that the vice presidency — which John Nance Garner, one of FDR’s veeps, famously described as “not worth a bucket of warm piss” — is actually the repository of unilateral control over the most powerful office in the world is so cockamamie that no one involved in it will stand behind it now. In the post-riot memory, the notion is said to have been merely a topic for discussion, not . . . you know . . . action. Pence is rightly commended for dismissing it out of hand, but he dismissed it out of hand because it was unserious. Even if he had been crazy enough to sign on, there were not nearly enough lawmakers willing to go along for the ride.

Though the exercise was farcical, it is credibly undeniable that Trump violated his oath of office to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution. He tried to undermine state sovereignty over presidential elections, claiming that the federal government had the power to countermand state certification of state results. He tried to browbeat Congress and the vice president to violate their duty to acknowledge the state-certified results. He tried to delegitimize Biden’s presidency (and no, the fact that Democrats did this to Bush and to Trump is not a defense — not to people who presume to call themselves constitutional conservatives). He undermined national security and stability by impeding the transition to Biden’s administration rather than assisting it. This would have been impeachable conduct even if the riot hadn’t happened.

Nevertheless, to say Trump’s condemnable behavior triggered the riot is not the same as saying Trump intended or incited a riot. What the former president wanted was reprehensible, but it was a different kind of reprehensible from the species portrayed by Democrats.

Yes, Trump vigorously encouraged a rambunctious crowd of tens of thousands to descend on Washington on January 6, and he misled them with a big lie about election fraud. Indeed, it is just staggering to compare Team Trump’s (a) public rhetoric about a stolen election and (b) quiet admissions in court that fraud could not be proved. But Trump was not purposely promoting violence, even if he recklessly disregarded the distinct possibility of violence. Rather, Trump was trying to stoke political pressure on Pence and congressional Republicans in order to coerce them into flouting their constitutional duties.

That is saliently different from inciting violence. Trump is impeachably responsible for the riot because his performance leading up to it was a betrayal of his public trust. He is morally responsible for the riot because he created the conditions without which it would not have happened. But he is not legally responsible for it — in the sense that Democrats and other critics invoke when they call for his criminal prosecution — because there is a dearth of evidence that he intended violence, much less called for it.

However grudgingly he may have done it, Trump explicitly called for peaceful protest. He may not have been upset when the riot broke out; in fact, there’s reason to believe he was gratified by it, and that this is why it was so difficult to get him to ask his supporters to stand down. But legally speaking (and with all due respect to Laurence Tribe), that is very different from seditious conspiracy, proof of which requires — beyond a reasonable doubt — a preexisting agreement to levy war against the United States or attack our government by force. There is no evidence that Trump is guilty of that.

Moreover, with proof lacking that he conspired to inflict force against the Capitol, one can easily grasp why the Justice Department has not charged the former president with conspiracy to obstruct Congress — the charge brought against many of the most culpable January 6 defendants. Conspirators, as judges routinely instruct juries, tend not to reduce their criminal agreements to writing. The nature of the agreement is proven by the actions taken in furtherance of it. The actions by which the rioters obstructed Congress were violent. The actions by which Trump tried to obstruct Congress involved rhetorically ratcheting up political pressure. It’s a critical difference. Not all obstruction is illegal. Violent obstruction is always and obviously criminal. Rhetorical obstruction, in a free society with a First Amendment that safeguards even noxious political speech as long as it does not incite violence, is not criminal — even if it is disgraceful, dangerous, and if done by a high public official, impeachable.

In the event, the violence of the rioters actually undercut Trump’s tactics. Once Congress reconvened, with the country outraged by what it had seen, Trump’s supporters lost their nerve, offering only the most half-hearted objections, which were promptly swept aside.

That is the legacy of the Capitol riot. It will remain a dark episode in American history, but not anything remotely close to a potential extinction event for American democracy. Beyond that, it’s a political boon for Democrats. Not because they’ve convinced the country that there’s an ongoing rampage of white-supremacist domestic terrorism, but because Donald Trump retains a grip on a sizable, energetic plurality of Republicans. Though I have to think people will eventually come to their senses, this could be GOP suicide: Trump can’t conceivably win a national election, but it is not out of the realm of possibility that he could win the Republican nomination. I doubt it — I believe electability will be the most important attribute when it gets down to brass tacks — but I wouldn’t bet the ranch against it.

Donald Trump already gave Democrats full control of Congress for the start of Biden’s term (the Georgia special election, in which his “stolen election” canard cost Republicans two Senate seats, happened the day before the riot). A year later, Trump’s potential nomination is emerging as President Biden’s best chance, maybe his only chance, of being reelected.


DougMacG

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Re: Insurrection and the Second American Civil War
« Reply #1364 on: January 10, 2022, 09:25:45 AM »
Andy McCarthy gives no weight to the fact that Democrats did everything they could could foster election fraud in every jurisdiction they could - and still are.  On Jan 6, there was lack of proof and time ran out and Joe Biden is now President.

As Omar might say, some people broke some laws.  Those people now seem to be finding prison sentences.  Isn't that justice? 

Trump was wrong and stupid with some of his statements and strategies.  That said, the Andy McCarthy impeachment is argument is stupid, and not exactly timely.

McCarthy has moved quickly from being a highly respected prosecutor to being an opinion writer from the Liz Cheney wing of the party.  Some of his statements are ridiculous from a prosecutor point of view.

"he misled them with a big lie about election fraud"

   - Bullshit.  Trump was reading what we were reading, major irregularities in 6 states of which he needed 3 overturned. There was plenty of reason to suspect election fraud and Andy McCarthy admitted Trump believed what he was saying.  Is that a lie, or is it a politician being, gasp, wrong, or is it neither, just truth that hasn't yet been substantiated?  McCarthy is safe to call it a big lie because Chuck Todd and Liz Cheney said so?  Or is it because he knows Trump is a public figure who can't sue him for defamation?

McCarthy:  "However grudgingly he may have done it, Trump explicitly called for peaceful protest. He may not have been upset when the riot broke out; in fact, there’s reason to believe he was gratified by it, and that this is why it was so difficult to get him to ask his supporters to stand down."

Um, your honor, facts not in evidence, except that he "called for a peaceful protest".

His supporters, 74 million of which more than 30 million own arms, did not come to Washington, armed and needing to be told to stand down.  We stayed home and hoped justice would prevail. 

What part of "protest peacefully and patriotically" is so bleeping hard to understand? 

When you see a a bumper sticker that says, "Resist!", what timeframe is it from and which side is advocating that?  Everyone knows those are the liberals in denial that Trump won in 2016.  Jump forward 4 years to a mail in, harvested, power outage during the count, election and the word resist is sedition.  Good fucking grief.

G M

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Re: Insurrection and the Second American Civil War
« Reply #1365 on: January 10, 2022, 09:31:20 AM »
Andy McCarthy gives no weight to the fact that Democrats did everything they could could foster election fraud in every jurisdiction they could - and still are.  On Jan 6, there was lack of proof and time ran out and Joe Biden is now President.

As Omar might say, some people broke some laws.  Those people now seem to be finding prison sentences.  Isn't that justice? 

Trump was wrong and stupid with some of his statements and strategies.  That said, the Andy McCarthy impeachment is argument is stupid, and not exactly timely.

McCarthy has moved quickly from being a highly respected prosecutor to being an opinion writer from the Liz Cheney wing of the party.  Some of his statements are ridiculous from a prosecutor point of view.

"he misled them with a big lie about election fraud"

   - Bullshit.  Trump was reading what we were reading, major irregularities in 6 states of which he needed 3 overturned. There was plenty of reason to suspect election fraud and Andy McCarthy admitted Trump believed what he was saying.  Is that a lie, or is it a politician being, gasp, wrong, or is it neither, just truth that hasn't yet been substantiated?  McCarthy is safe to call it a big lie because Chuck Todd and Liz Cheney said so?  Or is it because he knows Trump is a public figure who can't sue him for defamation?

McCarthy:  "However grudgingly he may have done it, Trump explicitly called for peaceful protest. He may not have been upset when the riot broke out; in fact, there’s reason to believe he was gratified by it, and that this is why it was so difficult to get him to ask his supporters to stand down."

Um, your honor, facts not in evidence, except that he "called for a peaceful protest".

His supporters, 74 million of which more than 30 million own arms, did not come to Washington, armed and needing to be told to stand down.  We stayed home and hoped justice would prevail. 

What part of "protest peacefully and patriotically" is so bleeping hard to understand? 

When you see a a bumper sticker that says, "Resist!", what timeframe is it from and which side is advocating that?  Everyone knows those are the liberals in denial that Trump won in 2016.  Jump forward 4 years to a mail in, harvested, power outage during the count, election and the word resist is sedition.  Good fucking grief.

THIS!!!


ccp

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My opinion on McCarthy
« Reply #1367 on: January 10, 2022, 09:46:53 AM »
Doug,

"Andy McCarthy gives no weight to the fact that Democrats did everything they could could foster election fraud in every jurisdiction they could - and still are."

Agree

McCarthy,

" McCarthy:  "However grudgingly he may have done it, Trump explicitly called for peaceful protest. He may not have been upset when the riot broke out; in fact, there’s reason to believe he was gratified by it, and that this is why it was so difficult to get him to ask his supporters to stand down."

I do agree with Andrew on this point.  It is clear Trump did not rush out and tell the people trespassing and breaking windows to cease and desist as soon as he should have.

Why else was all these people from Pence to Kevin McCarthy to the Fox news crew (who seem to have a weird amount of sway in that WH) to his own children literally begging to get on the God Darn microphone and tell the trespassers to leave the building right away?

I guess Andrew right or wrongly is going by the evidence
and even our sides investigation could NOT PROVE adequate fraud

(though I still believe it occurred for sure)





DougMacG

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Re: My opinion on McCarthy
« Reply #1368 on: January 10, 2022, 11:20:00 AM »
First, I didn't follow the minute or hour by hour lack of response by Trump during the riot, but it was Nancy Pelosi who turned down adequate security offers and FBI not aligned with Trump who seemed to play a lead part in the instigation. 

I can't reconcile this: "though I still believe it [cheating] occurred for sure", a perfectly reasonable statement everyone here seems to share, with his slurs, "the big lie", and "impeachable" offenses.

"The Big Lie" meme for one thing obviously lacks originality so it cheaply and intentionally joins him with all those who previously uttered it.  That's fine except, again, it isn't true.  Trump certainly believes this election was stolen, stolen in too many ways to count, and wants the world to know the truth about that, not deceive.  Calling that a big lie is a big lie, IMHO. 

"Impeachable" needs context and shouldn't be tossed around lightly IMHO.  As mentioned here, Biden's neglect of the border and Obama's honoring of "sanctuary cities" and outside the law "DREAM" orders are dereliction of duty enough for us but didn't lead to the impeachment or removal of anyone.  Real impeachment leading to removal has only happened arguably once in 240 years when Nixon left office in the face of the outcome of that process becoming clear.  Impeachment, conviction, removal from office is a political process that fully happens only when your own party and supporters overwhelmingly agree with the charges.  On this one, they won over just one R Senator Romney who never supported Trump and they held the trial is an outside the constitutional process manner with no Chief Justice presiding.  A pretty big oversight.

But no one ever incited something like Jan 6?  What about this:


McCarthy:  "Trump is impeachably responsible for the riot because his performance leading up to it was a betrayal of his public trust."

No.  He was trying to uphold the constitutional process, IMHO.  He failed to get states and courts to dig deeper into it in a timely manner, and then right on schedule he left office with the intent of waiting four years and winning it all back via the voters and the constitutional process.  Ironically. it was the McCarthy side of it that wanted the outside the constitution conviction that would have ostensibly taken away Trump's right to be reinstated later by the voters.

I vote impeach Andy.   )

G M

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Explain this, Deep State Andy
« Reply #1369 on: January 10, 2022, 01:38:06 PM »

G M

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FEDsurrection confirmed!
« Reply #1370 on: January 11, 2022, 10:52:46 AM »
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/397325.php

There is ZERO doubt there were FBI U/C and CIs there running the classic COINTELPRO ops.

GM:

We are agreed that the FBI has a scurrilous history of entrapment and false flags.  We are agreed that is has gotten worse and that the accusations of the FBI fomenting Jan 6 are plausible.

That said, because our cause includes logic and integrity, we also need to acknowledge the validity of AMcC's criticism of Tucker's claim that unindicted co-conspirator means that they were FBI agents.  It just ain't so.

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Insurrection and the Second American Civil War
« Reply #1371 on: January 11, 2022, 11:10:46 AM »
Point acknowledged.

G M

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Parents are Terrorists? It was an inside job!
« Reply #1372 on: January 11, 2022, 11:40:19 AM »
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/397330.php

No.  YOU are the terrorists, dividing and terrorizing our country.
----------
https://freebeacon.com/biden-administration/school-board-group-apologizes-for-comparing-parents-to-domestic-terrorists/

"The country's largest school board association apologized late Friday for its letter to President Joe Biden calling on the FBI to investigate parents as potential domestic terrorists.

The National School Board Association said in a memo to its members that "there was no justification" for some of the language in the letter, which was sent to Biden on Sept. 29. "On behalf of NSBA, we regret and apologize for the letter," the association said."
----------

Oops.  That backlash is already out.

DougMacG

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Insurrection, Second American Civil War, Training for war in the Carolinas?
« Reply #1373 on: January 11, 2022, 01:11:57 PM »
https://news.yahoo.com/army-stage-realistic-guerrilla-war-162436455.html

Army Special Forces candidates will train in a "realistic" guerrilla war to be fought in rural North Carolina and South Carolina counties later this month, according to the service. Known as the Robin Sage training exercise, the two-week "unconventional warfare" drill is the final test of candidates' Special Forces Qualification Course training. The drill will take place Jan. 22 to Feb. 4 on privately owned land across 25 counties in North Carolina and three counties in South Carolina, the U.S. Army's John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School said in a news release.
-----------------------------------------

Training for what??
--------------------

Another link, Charlotte Observer: 
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/guerrilla-war-exercise-to-be-fought-across-rural-north-carolina-counties-army-warns/ar-AASDjEy
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 01:19:12 PM by DougMacG »

G M

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Re: Insurrection, Second American Civil War, Training for war in the Carolinas?
« Reply #1374 on: January 11, 2022, 01:17:46 PM »
https://news.yahoo.com/army-stage-realistic-guerrilla-war-162436455.html

Army Special Forces candidates will train in a "realistic" guerrilla war to be fought in rural North Carolina and South Carolina counties later this month, according to the service. Known as the Robin Sage training exercise, the two-week "unconventional warfare" drill is the final test of candidates' Special Forces Qualification Course training. The drill will take place Jan. 22 to Feb. 4 on privately owned land across 25 counties in North Carolina and three counties in South Carolina, the U.S. Army's John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School said in a news release.
-----------------------------------------

Training for what??

https://www.soc.mil/SWCS/SWmag/archive/SW2902/Robin%20Sage.pdf


Crafty_Dog

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Re: Insurrection and the Second American Civil War
« Reply #1375 on: January 11, 2022, 01:23:04 PM »
I know people involved in this.  For me, not a cause of alarm.  The danger lies in the Pentagon and the men in command there.

G M

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Re: Insurrection and the Second American Civil War
« Reply #1376 on: January 11, 2022, 01:31:22 PM »
I know people involved in this.  For me, not a cause of alarm.  The danger lies in the Pentagon and the men in command there.

Exactly.

I guarantee some deep staters are losing sleep over the idea of some Robin Sage graduates deciding to play by Pineland rules CONUS.

DougMacG

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Re: Insurrection and the Second American Civil War
« Reply #1377 on: January 11, 2022, 01:39:15 PM »
I assume the training is for Ukraine, Taiwan, and foreign wars not yet contemplated.  Still the timing with all the talk of war at home on both sides makes one take extra notice.

G M

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Re: Insurrection and the Second American Civil War
« Reply #1378 on: January 11, 2022, 01:46:57 PM »
I assume the training is for Ukraine, Taiwan, and foreign wars not yet contemplated.  Still the timing with all the talk of war at home on both sides makes one take extra notice.

Different Special Forces Groups have different geographic responsibilities. I worked on a protective detail with a SF vet that served with the 1st SF Group, who is responsible for Asia-Pacific, so he learned Korean at the Defense Language Institute.

https://www.baseops.net/militarybooks/greenberets.html

G M

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G M

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Re: FEDsurrection confirmed!
« Reply #1380 on: January 12, 2022, 11:45:27 AM »
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/01/must-watch-tucker-carlson-questions-sham-1-6-committees-sudden-acknowledgement-defense-ray-epps-clear-doj-role-jan-6th/

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/397325.php

There is ZERO doubt there were FBI U/C and CIs there running the classic COINTELPRO ops.

GM:

We are agreed that the FBI has a scurrilous history of entrapment and false flags.  We are agreed that is has gotten worse and that the accusations of the FBI fomenting Jan 6 are plausible.

That said, because our cause includes logic and integrity, we also need to acknowledge the validity of AMcC's criticism of Tucker's claim that unindicted co-conspirator means that they were FBI agents.  It just ain't so.

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Re: Insurrection and the Second American Civil War
« Reply #1381 on: January 12, 2022, 04:18:49 PM »
Love Tucker!!!

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Re: Insurrection and the Second American Civil War
« Reply #1383 on: January 13, 2022, 06:58:31 PM »
We have any sources other than Joe on this?

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The actual charges
« Reply #1384 on: January 13, 2022, 07:19:15 PM »



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Re: FEDsurrection confirmed!
« Reply #1387 on: January 14, 2022, 01:30:24 PM »
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/397352.php

 :roll:

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/01/must-watch-tucker-carlson-questions-sham-1-6-committees-sudden-acknowledgement-defense-ray-epps-clear-doj-role-jan-6th/

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/397325.php

There is ZERO doubt there were FBI U/C and CIs there running the classic COINTELPRO ops.

GM:

We are agreed that the FBI has a scurrilous history of entrapment and false flags.  We are agreed that is has gotten worse and that the accusations of the FBI fomenting Jan 6 are plausible.

That said, because our cause includes logic and integrity, we also need to acknowledge the validity of AMcC's criticism of Tucker's claim that unindicted co-conspirator means that they were FBI agents.  It just ain't so.

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ET: New footage of Babbit kill
« Reply #1388 on: January 18, 2022, 02:14:36 AM »
Babbitt Tried to Stop Attack on Capitol Speaker’s Lobby, Video Shows
Video shows female Trump supporter's desperate pleas to prevent rioters from breaking windows: "Stop! No! Don’t! Wait!"
By Joseph M. Hanneman January 17, 2022 Updated: January 17, 2022biggersmaller Print
Ashli Babbitt desperately tried to prevent rioters from vandalizing the doors leading to the Speaker’s Lobby at the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021, even stepping between one troublemaker and police officers guarding the doors, a video analysis shows.

Frame-by-frame video evidence analyzed by The Epoch Times paints a vastly different picture of Babbitt’s actions than that portrayed in media accounts over the past year. News media regularly painted Babbitt as “violent,” a “rioter,” or an “insurrectionist” who was angrily trying to breach the Speaker’s Lobby.

Video clips appear to show she tried to prevent the attack, not join it.

Video shot by John Sullivan, also known as Jayden X, shows that Babbitt tried to stop the violence against the Speaker’s Lobby at least four times before she climbed into a broken window and was shot by U.S. Capitol Police Lt. Michael Byrd. At one point, she was so distressed at the violence, she was jumping up and down in frustration.

“The reality of it is, Ashli wasn’t a violent person. She was a good person, but they’ve demonized her to become this domestic terrorist that she never has been,” Tayler Hansen, an independent journalist who was feet away from Babbitt when she was shot, told The Epoch Times.

“She served her country for 14 years. That’s just insane to me that they can actually get away with pushing this narrative,” Hansen said. “They’ve done that by suppressing first-hand witnesses like me.”

Hansen said he was walking behind Babbitt in a hallway on the second floor of the Capitol at about 2:40 p.m. She turned right down the Speaker’s Lobby hallway. Hansen followed.

Trapped in Hallway
“We didn’t know anything about the building we were in. She turned the corner and I just followed her,” Hansen said. “A big group of people followed us after I followed her. People just kind of emerged on the door. By that time, she was stuck in the corner.

“She was literally trapped there,” Hansen said.

Babbitt, who served in the U.S. Air Force as a military police officer, was chatting with three officers from U.S. Capitol Police and the Metropolitan Police Department.

Epoch Times Photo
Ashli Babbitt with looks of shock and concern over vandalism by rioters at the Speaker’s Lobby doors. Babbitt tried to stop rioters from breaking down the doors. She was shot just moments later. (Jayden X/YouTube)
“About five minutes prior to her getting shot and killed, all of those officers, Officer Yetter and the other officers in the hall, the MPD cops, they were all joking with her and laughing with her,” Hansen said. “They were having conversations and joking and laughing. Then not even five minutes later, Michael Byrd comes and executes her.”

Babbitt confronted rioter Zachary Alam, leaning in between him and one of the police officers guarding the doors. Alam turned away from Babbitt and punched a window to the side of the officer’s head. Babbitt winces just before Alam strikes the window with his right hand. He later uses a helmet to smash the tempered glass.

An audio analysis of video taken in the hallway reveals that Babbitt shouted, “Stop! No! Don’t! Wait!” according to her husband, Aaron Babbitt.



“After repeatedly forcing myself to watch the murder of my wife, I have come to my own conclusion that Ashli came to a point of realization that she was in very bad situation and the police weren’t acting appropriately to what she was witnessing,” Aaron Babbitt told The Epoch Times.

“I know my wife very well. She’s not destructive,” Babbitt said. “She was not there to hurt anybody.”

As the three police officers moved away from the Speaker’s Lobby doors, a U.S. Capitol Police Containment Emergency Response Team (CERT) was coming up the stairs, responding to an erroneous police radio report of shots fired.

Standing adjacent to the departing officers, Babbitt peers around them at the men smashing the glass. Her expression is one of shock.  She yells at the two rioters.

In Fear for Her Life
Babbitt feared for her life, her husband said, so she climbed into the broken window to escape. Byrd shot her before she got more than part way into the window frame.

“The only way we’d ever know why Ashli felt the window was the only way out is if she had been detained by one of the countless police officers that abandoned their post in front of those doors,” Babbitt said. “That did not happen. She was murdered and robbed of the chance to tell her side of the story.”

Hansen and Sullivan said they did not hear any warnings from inside the Speaker’s Lobby before the shot was fired. The protesters were extremely loud. There were conflicting accounts from police officers on both sides of the barricaded door as to whether warning instructions were given before Byrd fired on Babbitt.

Sullivan was the first to notice Byrd’s service pistol aimed at the window. He and Hansen both shouted warnings. “I began yelling, ‘Hey, there’s a gun! He’s got a gun!” Hansen said. “But nobody could hear us. I could barely hear John Sullivan and I was right next to him, because people were screaming and windows were breaking.”

Epoch Times Photo
Ashli Babbitt shortly before she confronted Zachary Alam, seen wearing the fur-lined cap. Video shows Alam punched a window a short time later. (Tayler Hansen/Stop Hate–Rumble)
“Since there was a gun, I got on the ground because I didn’t know what was going on,” Hansen said. “I figured I’m going to get as low as possible in case there’s any ricochets or any misfires or anything like that. I had my Kevlar vest on, which I always wear when I report.

“We tried to warn people and they couldn’t hear us — and we were screaming,” Hansen said.

Alam broke out the side window to the right of the double doors because he intended to use it to breach the Speaker’s Lobby, Hansen said. The only reason he didn’t climb through before Babbitt, Hansen said, was his glasses got knocked down on his face and he stopped to readjust them.

“He was about to go through that window,” Hansen said. “It was his idea. He was the one shattering it.”

Babbitt said the situation shows how two people can look at the same video and reach completely different conclusions.

“It all comes down to which mental angle a person views it from. If they hate Ashli because they believe the lies, that’s all they see: her being part of a mob,” Aaron Babbitt said. “Us who love her, know her, know every action and emotion she was displaying — she realized a minute before her death she was not in a friendly situation and something very wrong was occurring.”

US Cleared Byrd Without Interviewing Him
The U.S. Department of Justice cleared Byrd of criminal culpability in the shooting death without ever questioning him or taking a statement that explains his actions that day, according to investigative records and the Babbitt family attorney.

Byrd shot Babbitt at 2:44 p.m., as she tried to climb through the broken window. She was not armed.

Byrd met with investigators from the Internal Affairs Division of the Metropolitan Police Department five hours after the shooting. The DC police department investigates officer shootings involving U.S. Capitol Police.

“He did not give a statement to the Internal Affairs Division of the Metropolitan Police Department, which was charged with conducting the investigation after the shooting, and which the U.S. Attorney relied upon to reach his decision not to charge,” Terry Roberts, a Washington D.C. attorney who represents the Babbitt family, told The Epoch Times.

Epoch Times Photo
U.S. Capitol Police Lt. Michael Byrd was in command of police in the U.S. House chamber on Jan. 6, 2021. (Judicial Watch)
“The lead investigator brought Byrd in to question him and Byrd declined,” Roberts said. “He wanted a lawyer present. That means the investigator’s not going to talk to him at that point. It could mean that later, the investigator could approach Byrd and say, ‘Let’s get your lawyer down here and let’s ask you questions.’ That never happened.”

A U.S. Capitol Police sergeant who was posted at the double doors to the Speaker’s Lobby just before the shooting told an internal affairs investigator he left his post out of fear for his safety. He moved aside “due to the rioters surging towards them” and then “made a decision to leave the area and began to move towards the east stairwell,” a Metropolitan Police Department report said.

“If we didn’t have that stairwell down there, I thought they were going to kill us,” the sergeant said. If the stairwell had not offered them an escape route, “we would have been forced” to use deadly force, he said.

Another officer who was near the Speaker’s Lobby doors said he did not hear any warnings to the crowd. “Prior to moving away from the Speaker’s Lobby doors, officer [redacted] did not hear any verbal commands coming from any of the USCP officers that were inside the Speaker’s Lobby,” an internal affairs report said.

Epoch Times Photo
Lt. Michael Byrd’s Glock 22 service weapon as it underwent forensic analysis after the shooting death of Ashli Babbitt. (Judicial Watch)
A member of the Capitol Police Containment Emergency Response Team (CERT) who arrived in the area as Babbitt was shot, “reported that he did not recall hearing any type of verbal commands being given prior to Ms. Babbitt being shot, nor did he see who shot Ms. Babbitt,” a February 2021 internal affairs report said.

A U.S. Capitol Police sergeant who entered the Speaker’s Lobby just before the shooting said he saw Byrd and an officer “had taken up positions and had their guns out,” an internal affairs report said.

The glass panel to the side of the double doors leading into the Speaker’s Lobby was smashed out. Shortly after, Babbitt was seen attempting to climb through the opening where the pane of glass had been.

“There was a lot of screaming and Sergeant [redacted] heard someone yelling, ‘Get back! Get back!’ the report said. The sergeant was posted “furthest away from this barricaded door.”

The sergeant wasn’t aware whose weapon discharged until he spoke with Byrd, who stated, “I was the one who took the shot,” the report said.

According to a transcript of the interview, the sergeant said he noticed Byrd make a backwards motion after firing. “…He stepped back and I don’t know if that was from him taking the shot and realizing that he shot somebody and he was like, ‘Oh my God. You know, I actually did what I did’…”

A U.S. Capitol Police officer who was also in the Speaker’s Lobby, said he heard Byrd and others tell the crowd, ‘Stay back,’ before Babbitt came through the window. “He then observed Ms. McEntee (Babbitt) climbing through the window and the shot was fired, she fell back,” an internal affairs report said.

“While he noted that Lieutenant Byrd was shaken, he did not say anything. He has worked with him for about a year,” the report said. “He observed that Lieutenant Byrd was nervous, teary-eyed, and appeared very upset. His voice was also shaky when he called for medical assistance over the radio.”

Byrd met with an internal affairs agent from the Metropolitan Police Department at 7:38 p.m. on Jan. 6. After providing the agent with information on his duty assignment in the House Chamber that day and his last qualification on a firing range, Byrd was given a Garrity warning advising him of his rights.

“Lieutenant Byrd declined to provide a statement until he can consult an attorney,” the agent wrote in his report.

On April 14, 2021, Acting U.S. Attorney Channing Phillips notified the Metropolitan Police Department that no charges would be brought against Byrd.

“We have declined criminal prosecution of the above officer as a result of this incident,” Phillips wrote in a three-sentence memo to Assistant Chief Wilfredo Manlapaz. No explanation was provided.

Roberts said the shooting was not justified. He is preparing a lawsuit.

“If you’re acting in self-defense, you have to tell somebody you’re acting in self-defense, or it should be quite plain from the circumstances,” Roberts said. “It clearly was not plain in these circumstances. I don’t believe the officer acted in self-defense at all.”

Byrd’s attorney, Mark Schamel, declined to comment. The U.S. Capitol Police Department did not respond to a request for comment and information on Byrd’s current duty assignment.

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AMcC: Seditious Conspiracy is the Wrong Charge
« Reply #1389 on: January 18, 2022, 04:01:21 AM »
Some very interesting legal analysis here:

 ====================================================

Capitol Riot Prosecutions: Seditious Conspiracy Charge Wrong | National Review

Seditious Conspiracy Is the Wrong Charge in the Capitol-Riot Prosecutions
By ANDREW C. MCCARTHY
January 15, 2022 6:30 AM
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Share on FlipboardTrump supporters storm the U.S. Capitol following a rally with then-president Donald Trump in Washington, D.C., January 6, 2021. (Samuel Corum/Getty Images)
Prosecutors are needlessly risking acquittal by filing inappropriate charges.


 

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Two elements are indispensable to the crime of seditious conspiracy. First, there must be an agreement to use force, as opposed to protesting peacefully — even if rambunctiously. Second is the concept of levying war against the United States or opposing the lawful authority of the United States. Now that the Justice Department has been goaded into charging members of the Oath Keepers with seditious conspiracy for their participation in the Capitol riot, prosecutors may find that these elements pose insuperable challenges to their case.

The indictment filed Thursday necessitates revisiting this subject. It does not, however, change what I’ve already said about it, back in June: The actions of then-president Donald Trump before and during the riot undermine seditious-conspiracy charges.

First codified by Congress during the Civil War, the crime of seditious conspiracy principally targeted Confederate sympathizers in Northern states who undertook to sabotage the war effort. Such defendants were best understood either as having joined the Confederacy’s war against the United States, or, at a minimum, as opposing the government’s lawful execution of wartime operations.

In the ensuing 160 years, there have been just a relative handful of seditious-conspiracy prosecutions. I know something of this abstruse crossroads of American history and violent sedition because, nearly 30 years ago, I prosecuted the last major, successful case of this kind. Thankfully, people in the United States do not often try to make war on their fellow Americans, violently overthrow the government, or otherwise forcibly attack facilities and officials specifically because they are part of the government.

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Seditious conspiracy is the rare criminal offense in which motive matters. In most crimes, prosecutors need establish only knowledge and intent — meaning, the defendant did not act by mistake. If you embezzle funds from a federal agency, for example, it makes no difference that you needed money to feed your starving family; you knew the funds were not yours, and you stole them on purpose, case closed.

Why the accused acted is, however, a core question in seditious-conspiracy prosecutions. It must be proved that force was directed at government facilities and agents because they instantiated the government’s execution of its lawful authority. Or it must be shown that the defendant was trying to wage war against the American people: The purpose of attacking civilian infrastructure, for example, must be to coerce the United States into surrendering, changing policy, or taking some other national action. To the contrary, while blowing up a building in order to collect on the insurance is a heinous act, and one who does it should face a severe sentence, it’s not seditious conspiracy.

As I hope is obvious, I go through these legal niceties not to defend people, such as Capitol rioters, who violently stormed the seat of our government and assaulted police. They should be prosecuted aggressively and incarcerated accordingly.

My point is to show that seditious conspiracy is rarely invoked to achieve that worthy end because it is reserved for highly unusual situations involving unambiguous enemies of the United States. The January 6 scenario is not cut and dried that way. It’s complicated. It involves people who committed serious crimes but believed — however foolishly — that they were saving the country, not levying war against it. Far from opposing the lawful authority of the government, they believed — not irrationally — that they were acting at the behest of the president of the United States.

By contrast, the paradigmatic seditious-conspiracy case is the case I was privileged to prosecute. The accused were jihadists, mostly U.S.-based foreign nationals but also some American citizens. There was no doubt that they were at war with the United States; they hated the United States, wanted to destroy our constitutional system, wanted to mass-murder Americans, and could not have said so more clearly. Similarly, there was no doubt that the defendants planned and carried out attacks on civilian infrastructure (e.g., the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center) and government facilities (e.g., schemes to bomb the FBI’s Manhattan headquarters and American military installations) because they believed the government was using its lawful authority in a manner that, in their anti-American animus, they perceived as hostile to their interests and desired policies. And note: That they were wrong was beside the point; what mattered was what they believed, why they acted.

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This was consistent with the Civil War model. The Confederacy was undoubtedly at war with the Union, and its supporters knowingly abetted that war effort. The point was to separate the rebellious states from the Union, which would presumably continue on without them. For the Confederacy and its supporters, it was not that Abraham Lincoln was an illegitimate president; it was that his lawful election, and what they believed it portended, induced them to oppose the government’s lawful authority.

In trying to fit the Capitol riot into this paradigm, the Justice Department ignores basic tenets of the criminal law and tells half a story.

Repeatedly, the indictment asserts that the defendants undertook to thwart “the lawful transfer of presidential power.” Now, if we were writing a report about what happened on January 6, it would be completely appropriate to state, as an objective fact, that the “lawful transfer of presidential power” required acknowledgment of President Biden’s victory. But an indictment is not a report. It is not about what Attorney General Merrick Garland or you or I know is an objective fact. A criminal indictment is an accusation, calling into question not only the defendants’ actions but their state of mind when they took those actions. In this instance, the charged defendants believed that an acknowledgment by the joint session of Congress that Biden had won the presidency would be an unlawful transfer of presidential power.

And why did they believe that? Because the president of the United States told them so.

The Justice Department is charging the Oath Keepers with opposing the government’s lawful authority by force under circumstances in which the chief executive officer of the government, in whom all its executive authority was reposed, had convinced them through weeks of misrepresentations — including baseless claims of foreign interference, voting-machine manipulation, and counterfeit-ballot stuffing — that the election had been stolen, and that only by zealously resisting that outcome could the country be saved.

To read the indictment is thus a vertiginous experience. For nearly 30 pages, prosecutors describe a state of affairs in which, during the two months following the November 2020 election, Biden’s victory was neither denied nor deniable; therefore, the narrative insists, acknowledgement of Biden’s triumph was, beyond cavil, what the lawful transfer of power required. The defendants and their co-conspirators are portrayed as if they were irrationally plotting to defy that inarguable outcome. The indictment blithely omits that, day after day after day, the incumbent president was alleging that the election had been rigged and that the transfer of power to Biden would be unconstitutional — the antithesis of “lawful.”

A good example (I could cite many others): The indictment relates that in an interview on December 22, 2020, the lead defendant, Elmer Rhodes, “urged president Trump to use military force to stop the lawful transfer of power” (emphasis added) and described the upcoming January 6 joint session of Congress as a “hard constitutional deadline” to do so.

That is a grossly inaccurate description of what happened. Rhodes did not urge that the lawful transfer of power be stopped. Prosecutors offer no reason to believe that Rhodes intended to obstruct the lawful transfer of power. To be accurate, the indictment would have to say Rhodes urged Trump to stop what Rhodes believed was the unlawful transfer of power. And while Rhodes was mistaken in this belief, he did not formulate it out of thin air. He believed the transfer of power to Biden would be unlawful because the incumbent president — the only public official vested with constitutional authority to uphold the laws — insisted it would be unlawful. Consequently, Rhodes saw January 6 as a “hard constitutional deadline” because he saw himself as upholding the Constitution — preserving the government, not overthrowing it. He was not trying to oppose the government’s lawful authority; he saw himself — again, based on what the government’s own top official was saying — as protecting the government from the unlawful seizure of authority.

Of course Trump was wrong in what he was peddling to Rhodes and the country at large. Mendaciously wrong. Nevertheless, Trump is not a charged defendant. The fact that he had to know that what he was saying was false is irrelevant to the mens rea — the allegedly criminal state of mind — of the people who are charged. They thought they were defending the country, the Constitution, and the government. Because the president told them so.

At the start of this column, I explained that there were two key components of seditious conspiracy: a personally held purpose to make war on the United States, as well as an agreement with others to use force. This has to make it frustrating for prosecutors as they view the array of agitators.

The person singularly responsible for what happened was Donald Trump. He convinced his supporters that the election and their government were being stolen. But he said he wanted peaceful protest enough times that he could never be convicted of seditious conspiracy — it could never be proved beyond a reasonable doubt that he conspired with others to use force. So you’re left with a riot in which the ringleader effectively immunizes himself by disavowing force; yet, because of the ringleader’s misrepresentations, his supporters, though they used force, did not intend to levy war against the United States, overthrow its government, or resist lawful authority. They made the mistake of believing him . . . and of going way too far based on that belief.

To be clear, that does not mean these people are immune from prosecution. It simply means that seditious conspiracy is the wrong way to go about it. Obstructing a congressional proceeding, for example, carries a potential 20-year prison term. Assaulting a federal officer is punishable by up to 20 years’ imprisonment if a dangerous weapon is used (and up to eight years if there is physical contact with the victim, even if a dangerous weapon is not used). Damaging government property is punishable by up to 20 years if the destructive act placed lives in jeopardy, which the Capitol riot clearly did (and up to five years if it did not).

There are some complications with such charges, especially obstruction, which requires proof that the person acted “corruptly.” Nevertheless, those offenses do not turn on establishing, beyond a reasonable doubt, that people who believed they were protecting the country were knowingly and intentionally at war with it. They do not turn on proving that people who believed that the president, the top government authority, was encouraging their resistance were knowingly and intentionally opposing the government’s lawful authority.

This is the wrong case for invoking seditious conspiracy. For political reasons, Democrats and Trump opponents want to brand January 6 as sedition, since sedition is the closest thing to insurrection. But it is not good law enforcement to infuse a prosecution with complications that needlessly risk acquittal, especially when more fitting charges would provide for the lengthy sentences that the most culpable rioters richly deserve.

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A must read
« Reply #1398 on: February 08, 2022, 06:02:53 PM »