Author Topic: The Russian conspiracy, Comey, Mueller, Durham, Mar a Lago and related matters  (Read 203033 times)

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AMcC: Where JW's defense of Trump goes wrong
« Reply #1501 on: June 15, 2023, 03:09:24 PM »
This seems strong to me, even though it is from Deep State Andy ;-)

Where Judicial Watch’s Defense of Trump Goes Wrong
By ANDREW C. MCCARTHY
June 14, 2023 3:05 PM

Michael Bekesha, the ‘Clinton sock drawer’ lawyer, misses the distinction between agency records and presidential records.
I’ve already extensively addressed why the Presidential Records Act (PRA) is not a viable defense against charges that President Trump unlawfully and willfully retained national-defense information under Section 793(e) of the federal criminal code (which, in hope of avoiding Senator Lindsey Graham’s conniptions, I’ll refrain from calling the Espionage Act). So I’ll state the main point as succinctly as I can: Agency records are not presidential records.


Trump’s case is about agency records regarding the national defense — mainly, classified intelligence reporting generated by U.S. spy agencies. The PRA, by contrast, addresses documents and other records generated by and for the president in the carrying out of his duties.

Significantly, the PRA explicitly excludes agency records from the definition of “presidential records.” Under Section 2201(2)(B) the term presidential records “does not include any documentary materials that are . . . official records of an agency.” As if the term agency were not clear enough, the PRA incorporates the definition set forth in Section 552 of Title 5, U.S. Code. (That definition has been moved. In 1978, when the PRA was enacted, it was in Section 552(e); it is now in Section 552(f).) That provision broadly instructs that an agency is

any executive department, military department, Government corporation, Government controlled corporation, or other establishment in the executive branch of the Government (including the Executive Office of the President), or any independent regulatory agency.

Further, the provision broadly defines an agency record to include any information the agency or its contractors maintain in connection with the agency’s operations. Patently, intelligence reports compiled by the Defense Intelligence Agency, CIA, NSA, FBI, and other U.S. national-security agencies are agency records. They are not presidential records by definition and by common sense — i.e., these agencies are created by Congress, their operations are authorized by Congress, they are underwritten with taxpayer funds by Congress, and Congress is empowered to conduct oversight of their activities, which necessitates that agency officials and lawmakers have access to their records.

It is no surprise, then, that the PRA excludes agency records from its coverage.

The remorseless fact that agency records are not presidential records harpoons today’s attempt by Michael Bekesha in the Wall Street Journal to stake out a PRA defense of Trump based on an inapposite case, Judicial Watch v. National Archives and Records Administration (NARA). As I’ve pointed out (here and here), Trump and his defenders have stitched this lower-court ruling to the PRA as a purported defense. Amusingly, Bekesha proclaims that he is well positioned to defend Trump because he is “the lawyer who lost the ‘Clinton sock drawer’ case” — meaning he is now arguing against the position he argued in court.

To repeat, that case did not involve agency records — much less classified reporting by the government’s intelligence agencies. It involved nonclassified tape recordings that President Clinton made with historian Taylor Branch in anticipation of compiling a history of his presidency.


Bekesha was right to argue in the case that the tapes were presidential records, as the PRA defines that term, and that Clinton should thus have archived them with NARA, in accordance with PRA procedures. Instead, the president hid them in a White House sock drawer until his term ended, then took them with him (along with furniture, china, art, and other property the Clintons swiped). Nevertheless, the bottom-line issue in the case was whether NARA had civil-law authority under the PRA to compel Clinton to archive the tapes post-presidency (which would have helped Judicial Watch get access to them, pursuant to the Freedom of Information Act).

That has nothing to do with the issue in the Trump case, which is whether the Justice Department has criminal-law authority to enforce Section 793 in connection with Trump’s unlawful retention of classified agency records — which, to repeat for the umpteenth time, are not presidential records under the PRA.

Note, also, Bekesha’s sleight of hand. He claims that then District Judge Amy Berman Jackson “concluded the government’s hands were tied. Mr. Clinton took the tapes, and no one could do anything about it” (emphasis added). But that’s not what she concluded. She ruled that NARA’s hands were tied, which was the only question before her. She did not and could not credibly have said that no arm of the federal government was authorized to take action to retrieve the tapes. I know you’ll be shocked to hear this, but in 2009, when Judicial Watch began complaining about Clinton’s hoarding of presidential records, the Obama Justice Department had no interest in taking action against the former two-term Democratic president, who had appointed Obama’s attorney general (Eric Holder) as his own deputy attorney general, and who was married to Obama’s secretary of state.

Judicial Watch was thus reduced to nudging NARA to do its job by trying to retrieve the tapes. But Jackson, an Obama appointee, concluded that, as between NARA and Clinton, it was the president, during his presidency, who got to decide whether a record covered by the PRA was either a presidential record that had to be archived, or a personal record that the president could keep for himself.


This goes to a weakness in the Trump PRA arguments that I’ve already highlighted. Even if we ignore that the PRA does not cover agency records, the only documents a president is lawfully permitted to keep without archiving are what the PRA defines as personal records. These are such items as diaries or journals — not agency intelligence reports.

In any event, Judge Jackson’s ruling is unavailing for Trump because the agency reports of national-defense information that he is being prosecuted over are expressly excluded from PRA coverage. But that said, to the extent Jackson reasoned — or is at least being construed as having reasoned — that the president is at liberty to ignore the PRA, that’s just wrong.

Under Section 2203, the president and his staff are supposed to designate documentary materials (which include audio recordings) as either presidential records or personal records “upon their creation or receipt.” Moreover, if the president wants to dispose of materials rather than archiving them, Section 2203 directs that he consult with the archivist and, if they disagree, allow the archivist the opportunity to consult with Congress.


Clearly, Clinton did not comply with the PRA in good faith — what a shock. Berman found that the PRA (a) did not enable NARA to second-guess Clinton’s determination that the tapes were personal records because, implicitly, he had made that decision during his presidency; and (b) did not empower NARA to retrieve the documents from Clinton. On the latter, it’s true that the PRA has no enforcement provisions (we’ll come back to that in a second); on the former, even if NARA lacked its own authority, it could have referred the matter to Congress or the Justice Department to take any action they deemed appropriate. The fact that the judge and NARA had no authority to force other arms of government to take action did not mean that those other arms of government lacked authority to take action — they just lacked interest in taking action.

On the matter of the PRA’s enforcement provisions, Bekesha’s op-ed argument would have more bite if we were talking about what the Biden Justice Department did in connection with the Mar-a-Lago search warrant, as opposed to the Mar-a-Lago indictment.

Recall, with respect to the search warrant, prosecutors and the FBI claimed there was probable cause, not only of Section 793 and obstruction offenses, but also of another criminal statute, Section 2071, which prohibits removing and concealing government documents or files — not just national-defense information but any information.


At the time, I was among the commentators who pointed out that the Justice Department’s inclusion of Section 2071 was controversial. It was thrown into the mix because, for 18 months, NARA had been trying to force Trump to give back all of the government records in his possession. In addition to over 300 documents bearing classification markings, Trump had caused the shipment from the White House to Mar-a-Lago of thousands of other government documents that had never been archived. Trump thumbed his nose at NARA, and NARA could do nothing about it because — as we’ve seen — the PRA does not have enforcement provisions. Had Congress wished to have the statute’s procedures criminally enforced, it could have included in the PRA such crimes as those prescribed in Section 2071. To the contrary, lawmakers decided that would be overkill; they instead trusted presidents to work in good faith with NARA to comply with the PRA’s requirements.

Consequently, by adding the Section 2071 offense to its search warrant, and exploiting that as a basis to seize, not only documents marked classified, but all government records in Trump’s possession, prosecutors were, in effect, amending the PRA to include criminal-enforcement provisions that Congress had declined to incorporate.

In writing the indictment, Biden Special Counsel Smith refrained from including the Section 2071 crime that DOJ had put in the search warrant. This was prudent, especially since Section 2071 had already served its purpose: It expanded the scope of the search warrant enough to enable the FBI to do what NARA couldn’t — retrieve the thousands of files. NARA and DOJ did not want to prosecute Trump for violating the PRA, they just wanted to archive these materials in accordance with the PRA.

Hypothetically, though, if Smith had charged a 2071 offense in the indictment, it would have set up a legal controversy: Was the Justice Department merely enforcing Section 2071, as it is permitted to do, or was it using Section 2071 to criminalize the PRA — i.e., to rewrite Congress’s statute, which it is not permitted to do?

My guess is that the courts would have sided with the prosecutors. The clear terms of Section 2071 indicate that Congress intended it to apply to government officials. Plus, having failed to comply with the PRA’s terms, Trump would have been ill-suited to claim that the PRA gave him immunity from a Section 2071 prosecution. But the issue is not free from doubt.

For what it’s worth, I doubt that Judicial Watch v. NARA would have helped Trump much in this hypothetical situation. Though the former president is understandably treating the “Clinton sock drawer” case as if it were an exalted precedent up there with Marbury v. Madison, it is a really just a questionable opinion by a district court judge who decided, a dozen years after Clinton left office, not to challenge his noncompliance with PRA strictures under circumstances where neither NARA nor the Obama Justice Department had any interest in pursuing the matter. The argument that Michael Bekesha made during the case was better than the antithetical one he posits in the Wall Street Journal today.

But that’s beside the point. To be sure, former President Trump will have arguments to make against the indictment brought by special counsel Smith. But there is nothing illegitimate about the government’s enforcement of both Section 793’s protection of national-defense information and the obstruction statutes. The government’s vital interest in enforcing those criminal laws is patent. And unlike the search warrant, there is no plausible argument that the indictment impermissibly rewrites the PRA — a civil-law provision that applies only to presidential records, not to the agency records at issue in Trump’s prosecution, let alone national-security agency records of secret intelligence.

Andrew C. McCarthy

ANDREW C. MCCARTHY is a senior fellow at National Review Institute, an NR contributing editor, and author of BALL OF COLLUSION: THE PLOT TO RIG AN ELECTION AND DESTROY A PRESIDENCY. @andrewcmccarthy
« Last Edit: June 15, 2023, 03:11:32 PM by Crafty_Dog »

Crafty_Dog

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NRO: How to read the indictment
« Reply #1502 on: June 15, 2023, 07:09:33 PM »
second

How to Read the Trump Boxes Indictment
By DAN MCLAUGHLIN
June 15, 2023 10:54 AM

Don’t let knee-jerk partisan tribalism prevent you from reading the Trump boxes indictment critically.
It’s tempting to retreat immediately into partisan and tribal trenches when confronted with something like the federal indictment of Donald Trump for retaining and concealing boxes of sensitive and classified documents at Mar-a-Lago. There is a powerful pull to view the whole thing solely through the lens of what you already thought of Trump, or of his legal pursuers, or of the Justice Department and the FBI.



Those things matter. But the facts matter, the law matters, and the spirit and practice of due process matter in distinguishing what is true from what is not. A thing as consequential as the first-ever federal indictment of a former president demands that we scrutinize it with real seriousness.

Cause for Mistrust

There are some glaringly conspicuous reasons why conservatives and Republicans are right to greet this indictment with skepticism, and it is reasonable for that attitude to animate our analysis of the indictment.

First, of course, it is an indictment. An indictment is not evidence or a verdict; it is simply a series of accusations. The legal system presumes the innocence of the defendant precisely because the facts alleged in an indictment don’t always end up getting proven at trial, after defense lawyers get to poke holes in them or present their own side of the case. The legal presumption of innocence doesn’t bar us, in the court of political opinion, from believing the truth of allegations that seem well-supported by evidence, but as a social value it still cautions us not to jump straight to the guilty verdict without assessing the credibility of the allegations.


Second, we have crossed a Rubicon here. No president before Trump has ever been indicted. No leading candidate for a major-party presidential nomination has ever been indicted. While the Manhattan district attorney was the first to cross that line, special counsel Jack Smith reports to the Department of Justice, which reports to the sitting president. Joe Biden defeated Trump three years ago and would face him again if both men (their parties’ current leaders in the polls) win their respective nominations. And for all of Trump’s political liabilities, he currently leads Biden by two points in the RealClearPolitics national polling average in a hypothetical head-to-head matchup. The political incentive for the Biden DOJ to damage Trump politically is powerful.


As I have argued before, the unprecedented nature of such an indictment demands that it meet a high standard of clear legal violations that are regularly enforced. That standard seems to be met here — albeit on the basis of charges that were famously not brought against Hillary Clinton in a similarly egregious situation.

Third, the political incentives for Biden and his administration are even more specific. It is well known that Biden and his political team believe, with good reason, that Trump would be an easier general-election opponent than another Republican. Democrats are not above meddling in Republican primaries to pick their favored opponents; they spent tens of millions of dollars on this precise strategy in 2022, almost always supporting candidates who identified with Trump. They know perfectly well that Republican voters will rally around Trump if he is being criminally charged by Joe Biden’s administration for the very crimes that Hillary and Biden himself have been given a pass on. This is a particular reason to mistrust this indictment.


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Fourth, the pursuers of Trump in general, and federal law enforcement in particular, have severely damaged their credibility in recent years in ways that should subject their work to more public skepticism. Bragg’s indictment is comically shoddy, abusive, and full of obvious legal defects. The Russiagate investigation was, as we have seen, launched to investigate nonexistent crimes on the basis of an FBI fraud on the FISA court. The Justice Department under Merrick Garland has become frequently indistinguishable from a left-wing blog, going easy on literal left-wing bomb-throwers and rioters; slow-walking serious investigations of the Biden family while stonewalling congressional demands for information; and using its law-enforcement powers to build political narratives. That last objective includes compiling bogus statistics, branding parents complaining to school boards as domestic terrorists, and using heavy-handed and intimidating tactics to bring abusive charges against pro-lifers. The DOJ has not been especially honest with the public about this very investigation. Regardless of whether you entered the past eight years with a lot of faith in the FBI and the Department of Justice or very little, any rational American must have less confidence in their integrity, fairness, candor, and sobriety than we did in 2015.

Mistrust, but Verify

All of those background reasons for skepticism should weigh on how we read the indictment. None of them counsel for simply pretending that this whole thing is just another “hoax.”

I spent a lot of my two-decade career as a lawyer reading allegations — usually in civil complaints, sometimes in criminal indictments. There are four possible ways in which allegations can mislead the reader:

The allegations are factually false.
The allegations, whether true or not, can’t be proven by admissible evidence.
The allegations leave out important context that would lead to a different conclusion.
The allegations don’t actually add up to a violation of the law.
Consider the possibility here of each of the four.

False Allegations

Putting phony facts in an indictment signed off on by this many levels of review would require, in essence, a conspiracy. Now, conspiracies are real sometimes: This very indictment alleges one, and the Durham Report details something that functioned very much like a conspiracy even if it wasn’t an entirely formal one. It is hardly unheard-of for prosecutors to allege things that end up being revealed as untrue. But in considering any theory of a conspiracy, it is worth asking what one is being asked to believe without evidence, and how many people would need to be in on it. That should guide our sense of what might be false in this indictment, and what is very unlikely to be false.


Despite all the flaws of the DOJ and the FBI, they remain professional organizations. Even given the decline in rigor and norms of ethical behavior with the spread of progressivism within the legal profession, lawyers and law enforcement agents still mostly know how and why to be careful and cover themselves. If nothing else, their willingness to push the envelope will vary based on what they think they can get away with. And this is all being done under the oversight of Jack Smith, who is by no means a Democratic partisan, nor a senior citizen like Robert Mueller who may not have been on top of everything his staff was doing.

This matters a lot when a public pleading is filed that initiates a legal process that’s expected to end up before a judge and/or a jury. That is the case with a criminal indictment of a wealthy, powerful, public man who has every incentive to fight the charges tooth and nail. With one conspicuous exception — I’ll get to that in a moment — everything in this indictment needs to stand up in court.

One of the major reasons why the Russiagate investigation was so rife with abuse was that it was initiated as a counterintelligence probe, not a criminal investigation, and it sought warrants from the FISA court, which hears sealed applications that are rarely seen by the public. The people who used shoddy evidence to get warrants thought those warrant applications would never see the light of day. The more true-believing members of the investigation thought the warrants would unveil things explosive enough that nobody would look too closely at how they got the original warrants. Not so here.


Moreover, it is worth recalling that even the Russiagate story was not a complete hoax. It was absolutely the case that Donald Trump, his family, and members of his campaign had various unsavory ties to Russia, said things publicly suggestive of undue sympathy for Vladimir Putin, and expressed both public and private interest in receiving political dirt from Russian sources (just as Trump himself was later impeached for trolling for political dirt from the president of Ukraine). All of that was real, and remains real in spite of the misconduct of the FBI and the Justice Department. The phony part of the Russiagate investigation was in the connective tissue between that conduct and the legal process: “Collusion” isn’t a real crime, there was never any evidence of Trump conspiring with Russians to do anything illegal or anything that affected the outcome of the 2016 election, warrants were sought and obtained on the basis of partisan and foreign-sourced (sometimes Russian-sourced) political-opposition research, etc. It wasn’t all invented. But vitally important parts were.

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It is quite clear that a lot of what is in the boxes indictment is true; that doesn’t mean all of it is. We know, because there’s been an extensive public controversy, adversarial legal proceedings, and public admissions by Trump and his representatives, that Trump took a lot of records with him when he left the White House, brought them to Mar-a-Lago, and ended up having them seized by the FBI when it raided the resort last August. That much isn’t really even in dispute. Nor are the public statements by Trump that are cited here as evidence of his understanding of the importance of secure handling of classified materials.

Next, there is the stuff in the indictment that comes from documentary, photographic, or recorded evidence. It is always possible, but highly unlikely, that this is fabricated. A lot of people would need to be in on that. There’s quite a lot of it here, and it’s damning. It would be a giant fiasco for the DOJ and the FBI if the photographs in the indictment were faked or the recordings and text messages described weren’t real. I don’t think I’m going far out on a limb assuming that they all exist and are genuine. I will be legitimately shocked if they are not.


Then, there’s the evidence that comes from witness testimony. This is where the fewest people need to be misbehaving in order for the allegations to be false. In a criminal case, the likeliest source of false allegations in an indictment comes from trusting the word of witness testimony. That is often the testimony of a cooperating witness or co-conspirator who tries to project his own criminal conduct onto the defendant, or who exaggerates in order to cut a deal. Even in complex white-collar cases where there appears to be a serious paper trail, it can sometimes be the case that a witness tells a story that adds crucial context to the documents, but that context turns out to be false and it wasn’t exposed before the grand jury because there was no defense lawyer around to cross-examine the witness.

Nearly all of the testimony that would support the factual allegations in this case, however, would come from Donald Trump’s own employees, mainly his lawyers. It seems unlikely that these are hostile witnesses, even after he hung them out to dry and tried to get them blamed for his own misconduct in misleading the National Archives and Records Administration and the grand jury. Nor is it likely that these are people who committed crimes on their own initiative and are belatedly trying to pin those on Trump. Nobody else had the opportunity to move deeply classified documents to Mar-a-Lago, or a comparable motive to lie to conceal their presence there.

As Andy McCarthy explains:

The evidence comes from Trump’s lawyers. The people who were trying to minimize his criminal exposure and push back against his destructive tendencies. The people who were trying to help him.

One of these lawyers, Evan Corcoran, kept trying to help Trump even after he knew he’d been had. For his trouble in representing a former president, Corcoran was subpoenaed and forced by a federal judge and an appellate court to testify. He fought them all the way, struggling to preserve Trump’s attorney-client privilege. . . .

Corcoran was not trying to hurt Trump, even though Trump had thought nothing of putting the lawyer’s livelihood at risk. Corcoran provided the lurid testimony reflected in the indictment — including Trump’s suggestions that he falsely tell the FBI and grand jury that he did not have documents marked classified, and that he “pluck” out of a package of documents responsive to the subpoena “anything really bad in there” — because the law required him to, not because he wanted to.

The other main source of witness testimony in this indictment will come from the FBI agents who conducted the raid on Mar-a-Lago. That brings us to . . .

Unprovable Allegations

Now, we get to the point at which the government may actually have a serious problem. It’s both a practical problem in trying the case, and a legitimate perception problem in convincing the public of the legitimacy of this case. There are crucial pieces of the indictment that the jury will never see. We have many photographs of boxes, but what was in them?


That raises the specter of the same sorts of “Deep State” shenanigans that plagued Russiagate. The things that were done to impose a process-is-the-punishment investigation on Trump then may come back to haunt the FBI and the DOJ now that they really do seem to have Trump dead to rights. And if they fail as a result, it will be their own fault.

Thirty-one of the 37 counts in the indictment are under 18 U.S.C. § 793(e), a section added in 1950 to the Espionage Act of 1917. Let’s break it into its five elements:

[1] Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note (the “Unauthorized Possession” requirement)


[2] relating to the national defense. . . . (the “National Defense Information” requirement)

[3] which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation. . . . (the “Potential to Injure” requirement)

[4] willfully retains the same (the “Willful Retention” requirement); and

[5] fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it [commits a crime] (the “Failure to Deliver” requirement).

How will the government prove its case? Consider the National Defense Information requirement and the Potential to Injure requirement. The statute doesn’t say anything about classified documents. Nor should it. The classification system is designed to protect information that relates to the national defense, whose disclosure could injure the United States and/or give advantage to a foreign nation. The fact that a document is classified is certainly relevant: It means somebody looked at this and decided that those elements were met, and it puts the defendant on notice that this may contain highly sensitive information. But we all know that not everything that is classified actually meets the legal requirements for classification. A person charged with a criminal violation is entitled to contest whether a classified document actually contains non-public information relating to the national defense.

Rather than have guilt or innocence depend on proof of classification status, the statute requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt that the contents of the document in fact related to the national defense, and that the defendant had reason to believe that the information in the document could meet the Potential to Injure requirement.

Here’s the catch: The jury will never see the documents themselves and make their own assessment. If they really are sensitive national-security documents such as potential U.S. war plans, satellite battle maps, and assessments of American vulnerabilities, the government can’t let them become public. If they’re not that sensitive, the prosecution can’t get them declassified without admitting that they’re not sensitive and losing the case. To some extent, the prosecution needs to bring people who have seen the documents — including the FBI agents who testify that these are the same documents they took from Mar-a-Lago, and that nobody planted anything in the haul from that search — and tell the jury, “Trust us.”

That might be a tough sell inside the courtroom; it’s a very hard sell in the court of public opinion. Of course, the legal system has established ways of presenting evidence of the contents of a document that no longer exists or is otherwise unavailable for the jury’s review. Agents can testify that they reviewed the documents, and assuming Trump is able to hire lawyers with adequate security clearances, they can review the documents and cross-examine those witnesses. The indictment offers summaries, and a chart of such summaries (perhaps with more detail) can be offered to the jury. Prosecutors might produce redacted versions of some documents that illustrate the classification markings and give some indication of the originating agency.

This is an incredibly laborious process that could consume months of hotly contested pre-trial proceedings. Trump and his lawyers may do everything possible to make it hard to present this case. There is a long-standing “state secrets privilege” against putting sensitive documents in evidence, but the corollary is that courts sometimes find that a case simply cannot be fairly tried without them.


If you’re inclined to think that a large segment of the national-security state is bitter enough at Trump to set him up for this sort of charge, I confess that there’s not much I can do to persuade you that Trump will have a fair day in court to demand that the government prove otherwise. One thing working in the government’s favor, however, is that Trump was apparently stupid enough to actually wave around some of these documents in front of witnesses (possibly including Kid Rock), even in recorded conversations, while admitting that they were sensitive documents he wasn’t supposed to show them. That will make it a lot harder to claim that this is all nothing but a frame-up.

A second problem for prosecutors: Corcoran’s testimony was only elicited before the grand jury based on a decision that the attorney-client privilege had been abused in furtherance of a crime. That evidence will probably be admissible as a result, but there is sure to be a second effort by Trump’s lawyers to get it excluded.

Missing Context and Legal Flaws

Having gone on long enough, I’ll skim briefly over the final two issues now; but we may see more of them later, and they are related. In addition to the Espionage Act counts, there are six counts of varying types of obstruction of justice. Notwithstanding some floundering efforts to the contrary, none of these counts involves an obvious legal flaw. That said, the Willfulness requirement means that the prosecution needs to prove (as the Fourth Circuit has said) “specific intent to do something that the law forbids. That is to say, with a bad purpose either to disobey or to disregard the law.” That is normally a very high bar, but the allegations in the indictment look like more than enough to satisfy it, if proven.

As to missing context, it is likely that Trump’s legal team will want to put on testimony, or elicit cross-examination, to suggest that the case is not as open-and-shut as it reads on paper. Much will depend on what the defense can get out of Trump’s former lawyers, who may not be averse to fleshing out their stories in ways that are less damning than what’s quoted in the indictment. But there is a lot less room for ambiguity here than in a lot of criminal cases. Trump undoubtedly knew that he had the documents in his possession and that they contained things that were not supposed to be shown to anyone without security clearance. He’s allegedly on tape saying so. There may be more room for ambiguity in the allegations about his intent to have his lawyers mislead the grand jury about what he had.

We’re not all the way to knowing what the boxes indictment tells us. Read critically, it can’t dispel all sources of skepticism about this prosecution. That said, the parts of the indictment that seem most credible are awfully damning.

G M

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Re: AMcC: Where JW's defense of Trump goes wrong
« Reply #1503 on: June 16, 2023, 06:55:42 AM »
Deep State Andy spewing his usual deep state talking points.

Who has the ultimate declassification authority? If say one B. Obama gave the Russians the UK's nuclear secrets, is that within his authority as president?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8304654/WikiLeaks-cables-US-agrees-to-tell-Russia-Britains-nuclear-secrets.html

This seems strong to me, even though it is from Deep State Andy ;-)

Where Judicial Watch’s Defense of Trump Goes Wrong
By ANDREW C. MCCARTHY
June 14, 2023 3:05 PM

Michael Bekesha, the ‘Clinton sock drawer’ lawyer, misses the distinction between agency records and presidential records.
I’ve already extensively addressed why the Presidential Records Act (PRA) is not a viable defense against charges that President Trump unlawfully and willfully retained national-defense information under Section 793(e) of the federal criminal code (which, in hope of avoiding Senator Lindsey Graham’s conniptions, I’ll refrain from calling the Espionage Act). So I’ll state the main point as succinctly as I can: Agency records are not presidential records.


Trump’s case is about agency records regarding the national defense — mainly, classified intelligence reporting generated by U.S. spy agencies. The PRA, by contrast, addresses documents and other records generated by and for the president in the carrying out of his duties.

Significantly, the PRA explicitly excludes agency records from the definition of “presidential records.” Under Section 2201(2)(B) the term presidential records “does not include any documentary materials that are . . . official records of an agency.” As if the term agency were not clear enough, the PRA incorporates the definition set forth in Section 552 of Title 5, U.S. Code. (That definition has been moved. In 1978, when the PRA was enacted, it was in Section 552(e); it is now in Section 552(f).) That provision broadly instructs that an agency is

any executive department, military department, Government corporation, Government controlled corporation, or other establishment in the executive branch of the Government (including the Executive Office of the President), or any independent regulatory agency.

Further, the provision broadly defines an agency record to include any information the agency or its contractors maintain in connection with the agency’s operations. Patently, intelligence reports compiled by the Defense Intelligence Agency, CIA, NSA, FBI, and other U.S. national-security agencies are agency records. They are not presidential records by definition and by common sense — i.e., these agencies are created by Congress, their operations are authorized by Congress, they are underwritten with taxpayer funds by Congress, and Congress is empowered to conduct oversight of their activities, which necessitates that agency officials and lawmakers have access to their records.

It is no surprise, then, that the PRA excludes agency records from its coverage.

The remorseless fact that agency records are not presidential records harpoons today’s attempt by Michael Bekesha in the Wall Street Journal to stake out a PRA defense of Trump based on an inapposite case, Judicial Watch v. National Archives and Records Administration (NARA). As I’ve pointed out (here and here), Trump and his defenders have stitched this lower-court ruling to the PRA as a purported defense. Amusingly, Bekesha proclaims that he is well positioned to defend Trump because he is “the lawyer who lost the ‘Clinton sock drawer’ case” — meaning he is now arguing against the position he argued in court.

To repeat, that case did not involve agency records — much less classified reporting by the government’s intelligence agencies. It involved nonclassified tape recordings that President Clinton made with historian Taylor Branch in anticipation of compiling a history of his presidency.


Bekesha was right to argue in the case that the tapes were presidential records, as the PRA defines that term, and that Clinton should thus have archived them with NARA, in accordance with PRA procedures. Instead, the president hid them in a White House sock drawer until his term ended, then took them with him (along with furniture, china, art, and other property the Clintons swiped). Nevertheless, the bottom-line issue in the case was whether NARA had civil-law authority under the PRA to compel Clinton to archive the tapes post-presidency (which would have helped Judicial Watch get access to them, pursuant to the Freedom of Information Act).

That has nothing to do with the issue in the Trump case, which is whether the Justice Department has criminal-law authority to enforce Section 793 in connection with Trump’s unlawful retention of classified agency records — which, to repeat for the umpteenth time, are not presidential records under the PRA.

Note, also, Bekesha’s sleight of hand. He claims that then District Judge Amy Berman Jackson “concluded the government’s hands were tied. Mr. Clinton took the tapes, and no one could do anything about it” (emphasis added). But that’s not what she concluded. She ruled that NARA’s hands were tied, which was the only question before her. She did not and could not credibly have said that no arm of the federal government was authorized to take action to retrieve the tapes. I know you’ll be shocked to hear this, but in 2009, when Judicial Watch began complaining about Clinton’s hoarding of presidential records, the Obama Justice Department had no interest in taking action against the former two-term Democratic president, who had appointed Obama’s attorney general (Eric Holder) as his own deputy attorney general, and who was married to Obama’s secretary of state.

Judicial Watch was thus reduced to nudging NARA to do its job by trying to retrieve the tapes. But Jackson, an Obama appointee, concluded that, as between NARA and Clinton, it was the president, during his presidency, who got to decide whether a record covered by the PRA was either a presidential record that had to be archived, or a personal record that the president could keep for himself.


This goes to a weakness in the Trump PRA arguments that I’ve already highlighted. Even if we ignore that the PRA does not cover agency records, the only documents a president is lawfully permitted to keep without archiving are what the PRA defines as personal records. These are such items as diaries or journals — not agency intelligence reports.

In any event, Judge Jackson’s ruling is unavailing for Trump because the agency reports of national-defense information that he is being prosecuted over are expressly excluded from PRA coverage. But that said, to the extent Jackson reasoned — or is at least being construed as having reasoned — that the president is at liberty to ignore the PRA, that’s just wrong.

Under Section 2203, the president and his staff are supposed to designate documentary materials (which include audio recordings) as either presidential records or personal records “upon their creation or receipt.” Moreover, if the president wants to dispose of materials rather than archiving them, Section 2203 directs that he consult with the archivist and, if they disagree, allow the archivist the opportunity to consult with Congress.


Clearly, Clinton did not comply with the PRA in good faith — what a shock. Berman found that the PRA (a) did not enable NARA to second-guess Clinton’s determination that the tapes were personal records because, implicitly, he had made that decision during his presidency; and (b) did not empower NARA to retrieve the documents from Clinton. On the latter, it’s true that the PRA has no enforcement provisions (we’ll come back to that in a second); on the former, even if NARA lacked its own authority, it could have referred the matter to Congress or the Justice Department to take any action they deemed appropriate. The fact that the judge and NARA had no authority to force other arms of government to take action did not mean that those other arms of government lacked authority to take action — they just lacked interest in taking action.

On the matter of the PRA’s enforcement provisions, Bekesha’s op-ed argument would have more bite if we were talking about what the Biden Justice Department did in connection with the Mar-a-Lago search warrant, as opposed to the Mar-a-Lago indictment.

Recall, with respect to the search warrant, prosecutors and the FBI claimed there was probable cause, not only of Section 793 and obstruction offenses, but also of another criminal statute, Section 2071, which prohibits removing and concealing government documents or files — not just national-defense information but any information.


At the time, I was among the commentators who pointed out that the Justice Department’s inclusion of Section 2071 was controversial. It was thrown into the mix because, for 18 months, NARA had been trying to force Trump to give back all of the government records in his possession. In addition to over 300 documents bearing classification markings, Trump had caused the shipment from the White House to Mar-a-Lago of thousands of other government documents that had never been archived. Trump thumbed his nose at NARA, and NARA could do nothing about it because — as we’ve seen — the PRA does not have enforcement provisions. Had Congress wished to have the statute’s procedures criminally enforced, it could have included in the PRA such crimes as those prescribed in Section 2071. To the contrary, lawmakers decided that would be overkill; they instead trusted presidents to work in good faith with NARA to comply with the PRA’s requirements.

Consequently, by adding the Section 2071 offense to its search warrant, and exploiting that as a basis to seize, not only documents marked classified, but all government records in Trump’s possession, prosecutors were, in effect, amending the PRA to include criminal-enforcement provisions that Congress had declined to incorporate.

In writing the indictment, Biden Special Counsel Smith refrained from including the Section 2071 crime that DOJ had put in the search warrant. This was prudent, especially since Section 2071 had already served its purpose: It expanded the scope of the search warrant enough to enable the FBI to do what NARA couldn’t — retrieve the thousands of files. NARA and DOJ did not want to prosecute Trump for violating the PRA, they just wanted to archive these materials in accordance with the PRA.

Hypothetically, though, if Smith had charged a 2071 offense in the indictment, it would have set up a legal controversy: Was the Justice Department merely enforcing Section 2071, as it is permitted to do, or was it using Section 2071 to criminalize the PRA — i.e., to rewrite Congress’s statute, which it is not permitted to do?

My guess is that the courts would have sided with the prosecutors. The clear terms of Section 2071 indicate that Congress intended it to apply to government officials. Plus, having failed to comply with the PRA’s terms, Trump would have been ill-suited to claim that the PRA gave him immunity from a Section 2071 prosecution. But the issue is not free from doubt.

For what it’s worth, I doubt that Judicial Watch v. NARA would have helped Trump much in this hypothetical situation. Though the former president is understandably treating the “Clinton sock drawer” case as if it were an exalted precedent up there with Marbury v. Madison, it is a really just a questionable opinion by a district court judge who decided, a dozen years after Clinton left office, not to challenge his noncompliance with PRA strictures under circumstances where neither NARA nor the Obama Justice Department had any interest in pursuing the matter. The argument that Michael Bekesha made during the case was better than the antithetical one he posits in the Wall Street Journal today.

But that’s beside the point. To be sure, former President Trump will have arguments to make against the indictment brought by special counsel Smith. But there is nothing illegitimate about the government’s enforcement of both Section 793’s protection of national-defense information and the obstruction statutes. The government’s vital interest in enforcing those criminal laws is patent. And unlike the search warrant, there is no plausible argument that the indictment impermissibly rewrites the PRA — a civil-law provision that applies only to presidential records, not to the agency records at issue in Trump’s prosecution, let alone national-security agency records of secret intelligence.

Andrew C. McCarthy

ANDREW C. MCCARTHY is a senior fellow at National Review Institute, an NR contributing editor, and author of BALL OF COLLUSION: THE PLOT TO RIG AN ELECTION AND DESTROY A PRESIDENCY. @andrewcmccarthy

G M

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Re: Trump Strategy Options
« Reply #1504 on: June 16, 2023, 07:26:17 AM »
Because he was STILL AG when it was public knowledge.

Barr lied about investigating 2020 vote fraud, but he's being honest about everything else?

Sure.


So how is it the AG Barr would be expected to know what the FBI was hiding?

===========================

By Jeff Mordock - The Washington Times - Wednesday, June 14, 2023
Former President Donald Trump has multiple defenses available to fight federal criminal charges of mishandling classified documents and obstructing justice, legal scholars say.

Among the strongest legal options for Mr. Trump are invoking the Presidential Records Act and suppressing notes from one of his attorneys.

The sprawling, 37-count indictment filed last week by special counsel Jack Smith claims Mr. Trump recklessly handled some of the nation’s most closely guarded secrets, including documents about nuclear programs and potential vulnerabilities of the U.S. and its allies.


Mr. Trump, who pleaded not guilty to the charges on Tuesday in a federal courtroom in Miami, is also accused of blocking the government’s efforts to retrieve the classified materials.

The severity of the charges might make it difficult for Mr. Trump’s legal team to mount a defense, but analysts say some avenues are open to the former president.

“Obviously, this is a serious case, but I think it is a case that could be won by the defense. There are areas of potential vulnerability for the government,” said Kendall Coffey, a former U.S. attorney for the Southern District of Florida, where Mr. Trump was charged.

SEE ALSO: Trump shatters political norms again: Charges ‘will guarantee his nomination’

“The government is relying on testimony from Trump‘s lawyer. It doesn’t always work out when lawyers are put on the stand who cooperated against their own client. That’s just one area of potential vulnerability for the government,” Mr. Coffey continued.

Todd Blanche, a lawyer representing Mr. Trump in the classified documents case, declined to comment on possible defenses.

Mr. Trump and his aides might have already raised the strongest defense: that a president can take any documents he wants under the Presidential Records Act.

The 1978 statute gives the National Archives and Records Administration complete ownership and control of presidential records at the end of an administration but makes a distinction between official records and personal documents.

Defense attorneys could argue that Mr. Trump’s presidential authority granted him absolute power to declassify documents. Mr. Trump has already made that assertion. A president can take government property as personal documents once they are declassified.

“It would radically deflate the government’s case if the defense managed to make a successful argument about the Presidential Records Act,” said Joseph Moreno, a former federal prosecutor.

The full scope of the Presidential Records Act has never been fully litigated and is open to different legal interpretations.

William Barr, who served as attorney general in Mr. Trump’s administration, threw cold water on the idea of invoking the Presidential Records Act. During a recent Fox News interview, he called it “facially ridiculous.”

“They’re the government’s documents — they’re official records,” Mr. Barr said. “They’re not his personal records. Battle plans for an attack on another country or Defense Department documents about our capabilities are in no universe Donald J. Trump’s personal documents.”

Former Trump attorney Timothy Parlatore told CNN last week that the law gives outgoing presidents two years after they leave office to review all their documents to determine which papers are personal and which are presidential.

Mr. Trump was not charged with violating the Presidential Records Act, which has no defined penalties. The statute is not mentioned at all in the 49-page indictment.

“The fact that the Justice Department doesn’t address it in the indictment makes me think they are a little wary of it,” Mr. Moreno said. “I would be all over that if I was on Trump’s team and make that my No. 1 target.”

The various interpretations of the Presidential Records Act likely mean federal appellate courts and, ultimately, the Supreme Court would need to decide its full power and limitations before Mr. Trump’s legal team can invoke it as a defense.

“It’s extraordinarily rare to get an appeal before the case goes to trial, but there is nothing about this case that is normal,” Mr. Coffey said.

Regardless of how a defense involving the Presidential Records Act might shake out, Mr. Trump clearly believes it’s his strongest argument.

“Under the Presidential Records Act, I’m allowed to do all of this,” he wrote on Truth Social after the indictment was unsealed. He repeated that claim in a speech in Georgia over the weekend.

Another potential attack for the defense would be notes written by Evan Corcoran, one of Mr. Trump’s attorneys.

The notes, first recorded into an iPhone and put down on paper, provide some of the prosecution’s strongest evidence. They suggest that Mr. Trump urged Mr. Corcoran to block government investigators from retrieving the classified material and suggested that Mr. Corcoran lie to investigators or withhold the documents altogether.

Mr. Smith gained access to the notes under the crime-fraud exception. The exception allows prosecutors to remove the shield of attorney-client privilege if they have evidence that a client used legal advice to further a crime.

Judge Beryl Howell, the chief judge of the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia, ruled that Mr. Smith’s team could access Mr. Corcoran’s notes under the crime-fraud exception.

That means Mr. Corcoran, hired by Mr. Trump to fend off prosecutors in the classified documents case, could be a key prosecution witness.

Mr. Corcoran recused himself in April from representing the former president in the documents case but is representing Mr. Trump in other matters.

Legal analysts say the use of Mr. Corcoran’s notes opens up two areas of attack for Mr. Trump’s team.

First, the defense could argue that Mr. Trump’s statements to his attorney were taken out of context and he was asking what is allowed or not allowed under the law.

Defense attorneys also could point out that Mr. Smith asked a federal judge in the more left-leaning District to decide the crime-fraud exception while indicting Mr. Trump in Southern Florida.

“Trump’s team could argue the law for the government is more favorable in D.C. and the government did some maneuvering to get a home-field advantage,” Mr. Coffey said. “The defense can ask a Florida federal judge to reconsider it, arguing precedent is different there.”

If none of these attempts derails the charges, legal analysts say, Mr. Trump’s team could seek trial delays with other motions.

They could keep pushing back the case so it would go to trial after the election. If Mr. Trump wins the presidency, either the attorney general he appoints could withdraw the case or he could pardon himself.

“Even if Trump’s lawyers don’t try to delay it, it is possible that it won’t go to trial until after the election,” Mr. Moreno said. “Classified documents make this more cumbersome because there is an entire process that needs to be gone through to bring classified documents into a civilian court.”

• Jeff Mordock can be reached at jmordock@washingtontimes.com.


Crafty_Dog

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Judge rules lawyers must get security clearances
« Reply #1506 on: June 16, 2023, 11:54:30 AM »
second

Federal Judge Issues Order on Trump’s Classified Documents Case
By Jack Phillips
June 16, 2023Updated: June 16, 2023


U.S. district judge Aileen Cannon handed down an order since former president Donald Trump entered a not guilty plea to charges in connection with the Department of Justice’s case alleging he mishandled classified documents.

Cannon, in brief Thursday order, instructed all parties involved to obtain security clearances for lawyers who will need them. The order appears to emphasize the sensitivity of the case, as it is dealing with classified materials that a president could access.

“On or before June 16, 2023, all attorneys of record and forthcoming attorneys of record shall contact the Litigation Security Group of the U.S. Department of Justice, if they have not done so already, to expedite the necessary clearance process for all team members anticipated to participate in this matter, and thereafter file a Notice of Compliance” no later than June 20, Cannon wrote.

Over the past week, Cannon has faced significant pressure and criticism from mainstream media outlets, claiming that because she was appointed by Trump, the judge would act in a biased manner that favors the former commander-in-chief. Some Democratic lawmakers, too, called on the judge to recuse herself in the case.

Notably, in August 2022, Cannon barred Justice Department investigators from using classified documents that were obtained during an FBI raid targeting Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort until a special master could review the materials. Cannon said at the time that Trump could suffer “reputational harm” from the search, appearing to make note of leaks to the mainstream media about Trump-related investigations.

“I’m very concerned about her prior rulings and her potential mindset in this case,” Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.), who sits on the Senate Judiciary Committee, told reporters this week. Meanwhile, former attorney general Eric Holder publicly claimed that Cannon lacks the “legal acumen” to handle the case, without elaborating on why.

Cannon, 42, was appointed by Trump in November 2020. She was randomly selected to oversee Trump’s case, which was brought against him by special counsel Jack Smith.

Smith and prosecutors charged Trump with 37 counts stemming from his handling of classified documents. In a court appearance on Tuesday, the former president pleaded not guilty, and on social media, he has frequently written that the case is tantamount to election interference.

After entering his not guilty plea in a Miami federal court, he returned to his resort in Bedminster, New Jersey, and delivered a speech that attacked the Justice Department, Smith, and other federal officials. He said that Smith is a “raging and uncontrolled Trump hater, as is his wife,” arguing that the special counsel is being selective in his prosecution.

“There was an unwritten rule” to not prosecute former presidents and political rivals, Trump told supporters in a speech at his golf club in New Jersey on Tuesday. “I will appoint a real special prosecutor to go after the most corrupt president in the history of America, Joe Biden, and go after the Biden crime family,” he remarked.

He added: “The ridiculous and baseless indictment of me by the Biden administration’s weaponized department of injustice will go down as among the most horrific abuses of power in the history of our country … this vicious persecution is a travesty of justice.”

According to the indictment, Trump held onto classified documents after leaving the White House, allegedly admitted on tape that they were classified, and that he no longer had the presidential power to declassify them, then refused to return the records when the government demanded them back. Trump has publicly said that he declassified those materials.


The federal charges against Trump come two months after the Manhattan district attorney’s office charged him with 34 counts of allegedly falsifying business information in arranging payments during the 2016 election. He also faces legal jeopardy in Fulton County, Georgia, where local prosecutors have launched a wide-ranging investigation, while a federal grand jury in Washington, D.C., continues to probe his activity after the 2020 election.

Polls show that Trump is the GOP frontrunner for the 2024 election, largely ahead of the other Republican candidates. Florida governor Ron DeSantis is behind Trump, with a HarrisX poll showing Trump has 53 percent to DeSantis’ 17 percent.

If convicted on all the charges, Trump, who recently turned 77, could face up to 400 years in prison and nearly $9.5 million in fines. Trump’s aide, Walt Nauta, was also charged in the case, and court documents show that he is to enter his plea on June 27.

Before he was charged, Trump told Politico that he will continue running for president even if he’s convicted in the DOJ case.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

ccp

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Mark Levin responds to Bill Barr and A McCarthy
« Reply #1507 on: June 17, 2023, 04:43:36 AM »
https://www.marklevinshow.com/audio-rewind/

go to the 6/15 auto rewind.

his defense of Trump is kind of "what about isms " and as far as I can tell less about the precise accusations against Trump

he point out (deep state *1) Andy McCarthy and (deep state *2) Bill Barr can never give an honest answer to what about Hillary what about Biden etc .

Bibliography:

*1 GM Firehydrant of Freedom , 2020
*2 GM , Firehydrant of Freedom 2020

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Thank you CCP.

I find my thinking in this moment to be rather fluid.

In this moment I assess as follows:

a)   Trump had a long history of being shifty and abusive of the litigation process before he ever ran for office.  Indeed this was one of the many reasons I strongly opposed him during the 2016 primaries.

b) It does not strain credulity that he would fib to his lawyers about not having some of the documents in question and leave their legal standing as lawyers in jeopardy.

c) Among the various outrageous Deep State actions against Trump in this most recent round, there appear to be some charges that have merit.  It seems however that more of the charges are (deliberate?) misstatements of the law e.g. concerning his power to declassify and the role of the Presidential Records Act (which Trump too may be misstating in whole or part).

d) None of what he is charged with comes anywhere near close to Hillary's long list of serious felonies.   Thus it seems reasonable to conclude that this prosecution is not a matter of "no one is above the law" but rather is politically driven.

e) Given what has been done to him by the Deep State since he declared for office, I can understand/rationalize that he would have papers he would want to hold onto and would feel entitled to lie about having them.   Question Presented:  Why not just make copies and hand the originals back to the Archives folks?   It would appear that once again he has been in his worst enemy and we are torn between denying the Deep State its game to knock him out of the box, and spending the election embroiled in this food fight that is all about him.



ccp

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well said

yes they go after him in unique ways
yes it is unfair two tiered justice system
and yes he makes everything even worse
and yes it is all about him - for endless times - he loves it this way for sure

and yes he is also a damn lying narcissist who I am totally sick of
and while I agree with Mark Levin I still would rather hold Trump to account and get rid of him before he brings us all down

like Barr obviously does.

I would rather deep state win this one then fight like hell for someone , frankly , more deserving

and not someone who is making this all. about his personal revenge
dragging us all along for the ride down into a mine shaft that will crumble


Crafty_Dog

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"I would rather deep state win this one then fight like hell for someone, frankly, more deserving."

I respectfully but strongly disagree.

GM argues it is already too late, but in my considered opinion this election is our last chance to stop the Deep State.  We cannot survive another loss and remain America. 



ccp

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I would be more willing to fight for Trump

#1 -  if these situations did not arise in part due to his temperament
        and impulsive decisions
#2 -  if he was at least a perennial winner instead of the opposite
        he won by his pubic hair only in the electoral college in '16
        we then lost '18, '20. '22 - costing us very dearly
#3 -  he has never polled over 50 % !

if he is the only one who could win - we are doomed


G M

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"I would rather deep state win this one then fight like hell for someone, frankly, more deserving."

I respectfully but strongly disagree.

GM argues it is already too late, but in my considered opinion this election is our last chance to stop the Deep State.  We cannot survive another loss and remain America.

If Trump or someone else not compromised got in, many people in the DS lose badly, including prison. Who thinks they'll let that happen?

Crafty_Dog

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CCP:

Strong points, well made.

That said, let's dig a bit deeper:

As a matter of logic it seems fair to reason that to the extent you demotivate you increase the chances of what all of us here strongly oppose, yes?   The same applies to me too btw!

Question: By what process do we get to someone else who both can win and has what it takes to take on the DS and has what it takes to win?  And who might that be?

GM raises an interesting question.  Now that we experience them going for a take-out (and prison?!?) via the legal system, are we to do the same?  And what does that look like in execution?  And in aftermath?

IMHO, some we clearly must.  Exactly who? and how do we need to go about it to avoid an endless revenge cycle?

G M

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CCP:

Strong points, well made.

That said, let's dig a bit deeper:

As a matter of logic it seems fair to reason that to the extent you demotivate you increase the chances of what all of us here strongly oppose, yes?   The same applies to me too btw!

Question: By what process do we get to someone else who both can win and has what it takes to take on the DS and has what it takes to win?  And who might that be?

GM raises an interesting question.  Now that we experience them going for a take-out (and prison?!?) via the legal system, are we to do the same?  And what does that look like in execution?  And in aftermath?

IMHO, some we clearly must.  Exactly who? and how do we need to go about it to avoid an endless revenge cycle?

One side is going to end up in mass graves. One side will win.

Pick which one you want to be.

All other options are gone.


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I would be more willing to fight for Trump

#1 -  if these situations did not arise in part due to his temperament
        and impulsive decisions
#2 -  if he was at least a perennial winner instead of the opposite
        he won by his pubic hair only in the electoral college in '16
        we then lost '18, '20. '22 - costing us very dearly
#3 -  he has never polled over 50 % !

if he is the only one who could win - we are doomed.

Great points.  My view is I will fight for Trump against targeting and false charges but support someone else for the nomination.

Trump came to the Oval Office without a team and had no chance against the tilted swamp much less the corrupt parts.  He made so many hiring mistakes just by his own admission, and that was just the top person in each department, not the rank and file permanent class. He forced no budget constraints, no deeper personnel changes inside any of the agencies.  (To his credit he did deregulate but that didn't weaken these agencies..)

I am hopeful with DeSanrtis.  No question that he governs better, has a good team and manages people with a purpose. Is that enough?  Who knows.  At least he knows what he's up against.  Our job is to find and advance the person has the best shot at turning this around. It's hard to say in 2023-2024 that is Trump.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2023, 11:59:27 AM by DougMacG »

G M

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I would be more willing to fight for Trump

#1 -  if these situations did not arise in part due to his temperament
        and impulsive decisions
#2 -  if he was at least a perennial winner instead of the opposite
        he won by his pubic hair only in the electoral college in '16
        we then lost '18, '20. '22 - costing us very dearly
#3 -  he has never polled over 50 % !

if he is the only one who could win - we are doomed.

Great points.  My view is I will fight for Trump against targeting and false charges but support someone else for the nomination.

Trump came to the Oval Office without a team and had no chance against the tilted swamp much less the corrupt parts.  He made so many hiring mistakes just by his own admission, and that was just the top person in each department, not the rank and file permanent class. He forced no budget constraints, no deeper personnel changes inside of any of the agencies.  (To his credit he did deregulate but that didn't weaken these agencies..)

I am hopeful with DeSanrtis.  No question that he governs better, has a good team and manages people with a purpose. Is that enough?  Who knows.  At least he knows what he's up against.  Our job is to find and advance the person has the best shot at turning this around. It's hard to say in 2023-2024 that is Trump.

When they blatantly steal 2024 just like they did in 2020 and 2022, who is your pick to lose in 2028?

Will they allow voting in the internment camps?

Crafty_Dog

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"Great points.  My view is I will fight for Trump against targeting and false charges but support someone else for the nomination.

"Trump came to the Oval Office without a team and had no chance against the tilted swamp much less the corrupt parts.  He made so many hiring mistakes just by his own admission, and that was just the top person in each department, not the rank and file permanent class. He forced no budget constraints, no deeper personnel changes inside any of the agencies.  (To his credit he did deregulate but that didn't weaken these agencies..)

True, but

a) leaves out quite a bit of his quite substantial achievements. 
b) how was he to realize just how deep and deranged and illegal the opposition was to be?
c) regarding budget, to get the military spending he had to acede to Dem domestic spending.  I'm with him on this.

"I am hopeful with DeSanrtis.  No question that he governs better, has a good team and manages people with a purpose. Is that enough?  Who knows.  At least he knows what he's up against.  Our job is to find and advance the person has the best shot at turning this around. It's hard to say in 2023-2024 that is Trump."

I too favor DeSantis , , , so far.  So far beyond platitudes, he is tabla rasa on geopolitics.  I think Trump was very good on geopolitics and stands ready to pick up the reigns on Day One.


Crafty_Dog

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Rudy G says
« Reply #1519 on: June 18, 2023, 03:31:00 PM »
I am hearing that Rudy G says the wife of the Burisma executive with the phone tapes has been offed.

Confirm or deny?



Crafty_Dog

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Trump has that effect on a very high percentage of people who have worked for him.

G M

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Trump has that effect on a very high percentage of people who have worked for him.

Barr was specifically sent in to sabotage Trump and protect the deep state.




G M

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Crafty_Dog

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Plausible to say Secret stuff should not be divulged, but roadblocks in his having lawyers who can see the documents in question definitely no bueno.


ccp

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remember all those postings of the very same image of Durham looking so stern and tough

what a joke

as always Dems always get off with zero consequences





Crafty_Dog

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Who is the mole?
« Reply #1534 on: July 06, 2023, 09:23:48 AM »
Who is the mole informing the FBI to look at/see security footage showing movement of boxes?

Attorney Corcoran?  Feeling hoodwinked by Trump and feeling susceptible to disbarment?

Crafty_Dog

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GA indictment coming?
« Reply #1535 on: July 12, 2023, 02:01:15 AM »
GEORGIA

Georgia district attorney closer to indicting Trump

Jury selection starts to decide election interference charges

BY SUSAN FERRECHIO THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Former President Donald Trump, who is already facing dozens of felony charges in separate state and federal criminal cases, could be indicted in weeks, if not days, on new charges related to his actions in Georgia following the 2020 election.

Grand jury selection started Tuesday in Fulton County to determine whether District Attorney Fani Willis has sufficient evidence to bring election interference charges against Mr. Trump and his associates who tried to get Georgia officials to overturn the state’s presidential election results.

“It could be pretty quick because there’s really no defense presentation,” former federal prosecutor Neama Rahmani said. “If they want to get an indictment, they should be able to get it in a matter of days. Weeks would likely be the maximum.”

Ms. Willis said in April she would file any charges against Mr. Trump between July 11 and Sept. 1.

Ms. Willis began investigating the former president three years ago based on his bid to pressure Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger to dig up enough votes to overtake President Biden’s narrow victory in the state.

In a call made on Jan. 2, 2021, Mr. Trump told Mr. Raffensperger, “I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state.”

Mr. Trump has defended the call as “perfect” and said it concerned “widespread election fraud in Georgia.”

Mr. Trump has continued to make the claim that election irregularities gave Mr. Biden an unfair advantage.

Ms. Willis, he said in a statement last year, is fishing around for a way to charge “a very popular president” with “a tiny word of phrase” from the call.

Mr. Rahmani believes Ms. Willis will ask the grand jury to indict Mr. Trump on felony charges.

The grand jury only needs to be convinced of probable cause and will not hear from defense arguments. Ms. Willis may be emboldened by the total 73 felony charges Mr. Trump is facing in two other cases.

“I would expect that Fani Willis will seek an indictment,” Mr. Rahmani said. “She has a reputation as an aggressive prosecutor and any kind of hesitation by her to be the first person to charge a former president and opening up a political Pandora’s box, that’s all gone.”

Special counsel Jack Smith indicted Mr. Trump in June on 37 felony charges related to storing classified documents at his Mar-a-Lago estate. Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg indicted Mr. Trump in April on 34 felony charges related to alleged hush money payments in 2016 to silence claims he had extramarital affairs.

The Georgia grand jury is also expected to weigh charges against other individuals.

In addition to the call to Mr. Raffensperger, Ms. Willis is investigating Mr. Trump and others involved in a plan to appoint an alternative set of Georgia electors who would endorse Mr. Trump, and not Mr. Biden, as the state’s winner in the presidential contest.

A special grand jury last year heard from 75 witnesses in the case, including Sen. Lindsey Graham, South Carolina Republican, and Mr. Trump’s former attorney, Rudy W. Giuliani.

The special grand jury recommended undisclosed charges for multiple people and reported possible perjury by some of the witnesses.

Jury forewoman Emily Kohrs made a round of media appearances in February. She told CNN the jury produced “a whole list” of indictments, including “the big name everyone keeps asking about.”

Following his indictment in Manhattan, Mr. Trump aimed Ms. Willis, calling her “a local racist Democrat district attorney in Atlanta who is doing everything in her power to indict me over an absolutely perfect phone call.”

Ms. Willis told a Georgia news outlet that Mr. Trump’s comment was “ridiculous” but protected by the First Amendment


Crafty_Dog

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JUSTICE DEPARTMENT

Trump prosecutors dig for charges from obscurities of history

Reconstruction-era law most surprising

BY JEFF MORDOCK THE WASHINGTON TIMES

At the heart of the Justice Department’s twin cases against former President Donald Trump are two statutes so rarely used that one had been invoked by federal prosecutors only about a dozen times in the past 20 years.

Federal prosecutors investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, riot at the U.S. Capitol sent a letter last week suggesting that Mr. Trump could be charged with violating a federal law enacted to crack down on post-Civil War voting intimidation.

Special counsel Jack Smith also invoked an arcane law in a case accusing the former president of illegally mishandling classified documents. The Espionage Act, a law from World War I, was aimed at spies.

John Yoo, a law professor at the University of California, Berkeley, said Mr. Smith is using these arcane laws in Trump cases because a former U.S. president had never before been prosecuted.

“These older, obscure statutes are coming up in these Trump cases because trying to criminally prosecute a former president is without precedent,” said Mr. Yoo, who served as deputy assistant attorney general under President George W. Bush. “There are no criminal statutes aimed at presidential conduct or the conduct of a presidential candidate.” Curt Levey, head of the Committee for Justice, a judicial reform group, offered a different explanation. “The Justice Department made up their mind that they were going to charge Trump for something and searched high and low for a statute that — that even if rarely used and very old — can be cobbled together for a theory that Trump violated it,” he said.

Mr. Smith’s letter referred to three criminal statutes, including conspiracy to defraud the government and obstruction of an official proceeding.

It was the third criminal law that caught legal analysts by surprise. The letter cited a statute that makes it illegal to deprive citizens of the free exercise of constitutional rights, such as voting.

The statute, Title 18, Section 241 of the U.S. Criminal Code, was drafted during Reconstruction to crack down on Whites in the South, including Ku Klux Klan members, from stopping formerly enslaved Black people from voting. A conviction carries up to 10 years in prison.

Just because the target letter referenced Section 241 does not mean Mr. Trump will be charged with violating the law or even that he could face criminal charges.

Still, legal scholars were surprised to see the Section 241 reference.

Mr. Yoo said he thinks it is the first time the section has been used against a federal official.

“It’s typically used against state and local officials and people conspiring with the Ku Klux Klan. It’s a real stretch in this case and reflects uncertainty on the part of the special counsel about the charges they are bringing,” he said.

Section 241 makes it a crime to conspire to “injure, oppress, threaten or intimidate” a person exercising “any right or privilege” secured under the Constitution.

The use of Section 241 instead of a potential sedition or insurrection charge raised eyebrows. Mr. Trump was widely expected to face those charges in the case of the Capitol riot, but the target letter does not list either.

It’s unclear how Mr. Smith intends to argue that Mr. Trump violated the statute. One theory is that he would cite a 1974 Supreme Court opinion expanding Section 241 violations to include cases of voter fraud conspiracies. In that case, the court held that West Virginians who cast fake ballots on a voting machine violated Section 241 because it distorted votes that were counted fairly.

Mr. Smith could argue that the law applies to Mr. Trump’s pressure on the Georgia secretary of state to find enough votes to overcome Joseph R. Biden’s win of state electors. He could also try to make the case that Mr. Trump violated the statute with his plan to appoint fake electors in states won by Mr. Biden to block or delay certification of Mr. Biden’s 2020 election win.

Josh Blackman, a constitutional law professor at South Texas College of Law, said each application would be a stretch.

“There is a risk in bringing in these novel crimes where there isn’t a lot of precedent. It doesn’t always work,” he said. “A judge can say the statute doesn’t apply or the jury could acquit.”

It’s also unclear how Mr. Trump might have blocked the counting of votes, Mr. Blackman said. At the time of the phone call to Georgia’s secretary of state or the fake elector scheme, votes had been counted fairly.

“It’s not like Trump was taking legitimately cast votes and stuffing them in his pockets. He made a phone call asking if there were votes to be counted, and I’m sure his lawyers will make that argument,” he said. Using obscure statutes seems to be part of Mr. Smith’s playbook in Trump investigations. He also surprised legal watchers by charging Mr. Trump under the Espionage Act in the classified documents case.

Mr. Trump is one of a little over a dozen people charged in the past 20 years with willful retention of classified documents. Most of the others were littleknown defendants in cases that rarely made headlines.

The Espionage Act has been relatively rare and limited to spies. It was used to convict Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, who were found guilty in 1951 of giving nuclear secrets to the Soviet Union.

Mr. Smith isn’t the only prosecutor to use obscure laws against Mr. Trump and his associates. Special counsel Robert Mueller wielded the little-used Foreign Agents Registration Act to charge former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort, deputy Rick Gates and National Security Adviser Michael Flynn.

Until then, the Foreign Agents Registration Act sat dormant. The Justice Department had initiated only seven cases, two of which ended with the charges dismissed, from 1966 through 2015.


ccp

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Pac spends on Trump's legal fees

so he has NO incentive to try to limit the fees

I have a problem with this, though on the other hand if everyone who donates to Trump know in advance they are paying for his lawyers then if they still want to donate to that that is their choice.

But somehow I don't like Trump using donors money to keep himself out of jail.......

yes political prosecutions but conflating his self interests  with the Conservative cause is quite annoying to me.

DougMacG

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ccp,  I wondered about that too. Can they spend campaign funds on legal fees?  If they're not supposed to, it sets up an interesting fight. Trump's campaign is the legal battles. Anyway, what are they going to do, charge him with a crime? He already faces about 60 felonies and leads in the polls. Meanwhile the incumbent that's pulled off the largest corruption in the nation's history faces no criminal charges.

The times we live in...

Crafty_Dog

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I get the point you guys are making but tend to come down on the side of his action being legit because the prosecutions are intensely political persecutions by the Deep State.

Crafty_Dog

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Deep State Andy rides again haha
« Reply #1542 on: August 01, 2023, 09:13:07 AM »



Crafty_Dog

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Doug asked which thread for the J6 indictment.  Answer: Here.

Pasting his link for him:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trump-indictment-2020-election-jack-smith-january-6-fraud-e0068c4f

DougMacG

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Similar take on the indictments from National Review, also no fan of Trump:

https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/08/this-trump-indictment-shouldnt-stand/

(Doug) All the bad charges serve to empower Trump to the nomination, but not to the Oval Office.

Ann Althouse:
https://althouse.blogspot.com/2023/08/after-nearly-decade-of-trump-convincing.html
« Last Edit: August 02, 2023, 01:35:15 PM by DougMacG »


Crafty_Dog

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DougMacG

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Hinderaker on the indictment
« Reply #1549 on: August 02, 2023, 06:51:13 PM »
« Last Edit: August 02, 2023, 06:57:45 PM by DougMacG »