Author Topic: We the Well-armed People (gun and knife rights stuff ) Second Amendment  (Read 902048 times)


Body-by-Guinness

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Rhode v. Bonta Quote
« Reply #2501 on: February 06, 2024, 04:56:24 AM »
The constitutional contortions embraced by the anti-gun side not only speak for themselves, but demonstrate the willing embrace of tin ears. Citing 18th and 19th century statutes discriminating against blacks and Native Americans to demonstrate early American embrace of “gun control” laws ought to cause the heads of anyone believing in our Constitution to explode but no, it’s all they got so it’s what they use. Damn the irony: full speed ahead.

“What are the 50 historical laws dating from 1789 to 1868 that the Attorney General has compiled as potential historical analogues? One would expect to find laws or ordinances that required a gunsmith to check with the local sheriff before selling a firearm. Or one might expect to find laws that restricted gunsmiths from selling to any customer who was a stranger in his community. Or perhaps there would be historical laws uncovered requiring a customer’s proof of citizenship before a merchant was allowed to sell him gunpowder. These could be apt analogues to demonstrate a related historical tradition of constitutional regulation.

Nothing like this appears in the State’s compilation of laws. The State’s compilation lists 48 laws which made it a crime to possess a gun and ammunition by Negros, Mulattos, slaves, or persons of color, and two laws that prohibited sales to Indians. For example, the Attorney General lists a 1798 Kentucky law which prohibited any “Negro, mulatto, or Indian” from possessing any gun or ammunition. An 1846 North Carolina law offers another example wherein it was prohibited to sell or deliver firearms to “any slave.” This is the third time the Attorney General has cited these laws in support for its laws and restrictions implicating the Second Amendment. These fifty laws identified by the Attorney General constitute a long, embarrassing, disgusting, insidious, reprehensible list of examples of government tyranny towards our own people.”

and,

“In the end, the State has failed to carry its burden to demonstrate that the ammunition background check laws “are consistent with this Nation’s historical tradition of firearm regulation,” as required by Bruen. Bruen cautions, “courts should not ‘uphold every modern law that remotely resembles a historical analogue,’ because doing so ‘risks endorsing outliers that our ancestors would never have accepted.’” 597 U.S. at 30. A sweeping background check requirement imposed every time a citizen needs to buy ammunition is an outlier that our ancestors would have never accepted for a citizen. Therefore, California’s ammunition background check system laws are unconstitutional and shall not be enforced.” –  U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez, from his 32-page ruling in Rhode v. Bonta, January 30, 2024

https://survivalblog.com/2024/02/05/editors-quote-day-2370/

DougMacG

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Re: Rhode v. Bonta Quote
« Reply #2502 on: February 06, 2024, 06:10:10 AM »
Very interesting post on background of gun regulation.

BEFORE I understand the meaning today of the 2nd amendment, I saw it as a test of process.  IF the gun control people had a valid point, 'it was written for a different time', they needed to take it through the process of amending the amendment, and they didn't (and they won't).  Otherwise they were (are still are) just stomping on the constitution, and weakening the significance of all of it.

"...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" is kind of clear.

Even Republicans were selling it as a feature for "sportsmen", apparently meaning hunters.  We had bumper stickers that said 'Sportsmen for Bush', I guess meaning we wanted hunters to jump over to the Republican side (right when we needed suburban women's votes who could care less about hunting.  The northern Minnesota 'Sportsmen' did eventually jump Republican, for other reasons, Democrats were trying to take their jobs and economy away.

Meanwhile now I get the real meaning of it and it is more needed now than ever.  The sum total of the firearms in the hands of the citizens should be greater than those held by the government, just in case...


Body-by-Guinness

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Re: Rhode v. Bonta Quote
« Reply #2503 on: February 06, 2024, 08:34:52 AM »
Very interesting post on background of gun regulation.

BEFORE I understand the meaning today of the 2nd amendment, I saw it as a test of process.  IF the gun control people had a valid point, 'it was written for a different time', they needed to take it through the process of amending the amendment, and they didn't (and they won't).  Otherwise they were (are still are) just stomping on the constitution, and weakening the significance of all of it.

"...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" is kind of clear.

Even Republicans were selling it as a feature for "sportsmen", apparently meaning hunters.  We had bumper stickers that said 'Sportsmen for Bush', I guess meaning we wanted hunters to jump over to the Republican side (right when we needed suburban women's votes who could care less about hunting.  The northern Minnesota 'Sportsmen' did eventually jump Republican, for other reasons, Democrats were trying to take their jobs and economy away.

Meanwhile now I get the real meaning of it and it is more needed now than ever.  The sum total of the firearms in the hands of the citizens should be greater than those held by the government, just in case...

Well said Doug! You can tell a lot about the quality of an argument by its accuracy, the smoke and mirrors embraced, the falsehoods it purveys. One bit of misdirection, as you note, that constantly annoys involves attempts to associate the 2nd amendment with hunting. “No hunter needs X number of rounds in his gun to kill a deer,” they proclaim, as Doonesberry shows hunters in duck blinds blasting away with ARs (uh, Gary, no one hunts ducks with “modern sporting arms”).

Their omissions speak volumes too, such as their relentless examination of the societal costs of guns (turn on a news program that doesn’t recite the “gun violence” mantra. I’ll wait) but utter omission of benefits such as how much better armed victims fare than unarmed ones. Hell, “armed victim” is a contradiction in terms better described as “victors.” And note how rarely “gun control” advocates debate those well versed in 2nd amendment issues, mostly because it’s easy to make hash of their arguments. Instead they rely on the MSM to carry their water and slosh it around inside of the media echo chamber.

If you have an actual effective argument none of this is needed. And if they were willing to press their goal by means other than deceit they’d start the constitutional amendment lift.

If you ever seek a quick read placing the 2nd amendment in historical context, one written by a constitutional scholar, i can’t recommend this highly enough:

https://www.amazon.com/That-Every-Man-Armed-Constitutional/dp/0826307647/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1EMTEB724RI2R&keywords=that+every+man+be+armed&qid=1707235929&sprefix=That+every%2Caps%2C107&sr=8-3

Crafty_Dog

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ccp

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Partial correction of Bill Maher
« Reply #2505 on: February 21, 2024, 12:11:40 AM »
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/bill-maher-gets-basic-gun-fact-wrong-after-kansas-city-shooting/ar-BB1iCpdE?ocid=msedgntp&pc=DCTS&cvid=9757712b3131410d911999673d41f502&ei=17

Clarification : all "licensed" dealers in the US require background checks.
Not clear what it means to buy gun from someone not licensed in MO and why that might be ok.

Crafty_Dog

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Body-by-Guinness

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What Part of “Common Use” Can’t you Understand?
« Reply #2507 on: February 22, 2024, 01:37:13 PM »
Perhaps this should go under constitutional law, but given the concealed carry implications I’ll drop it here:

Second Amendment Roundup: D.C.'s Magazine Ban Argued Again in D.C. Circuit
The Volokh Conspiracy / by Stephen Halbrook / Feb 20, 2024 at 11:16 PM
[It was déjà vu, but this time post-Bruen.]

The District of Columbia's ban on firearm magazines that hold over ten rounds was the subject of oral argument in the D.C. Circuit on February 13. The case is Hanson v. District of Columbia, and the appeal concerns the district court's denial of a preliminary injunction against enforcement of the ban.  The circuit panel included Judges Patricia Millett ('13) and Justin Walker ('20), and Senior Judge Douglas Ginsburg ('86).

The argument should have turned on one, and only one, question: are the banned magazines commonly possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes? As Professor Mark W. Smith has explained, under District of Columbia v. Heller (2008) and N.Y. State Rifle & Pistol Ass'n v. Bruen (2022), that is the only relevant question in an arms ban case. See Smith, "What Part of 'In Common Use' Don't You Understand?" Harvard JLPP (2023). That is because the common use test is the product of the text first and then history approach the Supreme Court has applied in this context. In Heller, the Court examined the Second Amendment's language to determine that as a matter of plain text "arms" includes (but is not limited to) all firearms. It then examined history to determine that only dangerous and unusual firearms can be banned. It follows that citizens have a fundamental right to possess firearms that are in common use today, because if they are in common use, they cannot be "dangerous and unusual."

The answer to the common use question in this case is a resounding and unequivocal yes — there are hundreds of millions such magazines lawfully owned for lawful purposes by Americans today.  By any measure, that's common possession. To be sure, magazines are not themselves firearms, but they are key components of all modern semiautomatic firearms, as they are the part of the firearm that holds and feeds the ammunition.  And the practical effect of the magazine ban is to prohibit an entire category of firearms; i.e., firearms that are capable of firing more than 11 rounds (one in the chamber, 10 in the magazine) without reloading.

Instead, the oral argument was a bit of déjà vu all over again. In Heller, the Supreme Court held that firearms "in common use" for "lawful purposes like self-defense" may not be banned.  After Heller, I was part of a team challenging D.C.'s ban on such magazines (as well as on semiautomatic rifles) in a case that came to be known as Heller II. In the D.C. Circuit, oral argument was conducted before Judge Douglas Ginsburg (yes, the same Judge Ginsburg) together with then-Judge Brett Kavanaugh and Judge Karen Henderson.

In a 2-1 opinion in Heller II (2011), Judge Ginsburg conceded that the subject magazines are in common use, but upheld the ban based on an interest-balancing, intermediate scrutiny analysis, despite Heller's express rejection of interest-balancing.  That was the first opinion to uphold a magazine ban following Heller. As I've shown elsewhere, most other appellate courts deciding such cases copied Heller II's approach, despite that approach being contrary to Heller. Indeed, then-Judge Kavanaugh dissented in Heller II to explain that the intermediate-scrutiny approach adopted by the court could not be squared with Heller.

Justice Kavanaugh's Heller II dissent was vindicated by the Supreme Court in Bruen, which made clear that Heller had rejected any levels of scrutiny analyses in Second Amendment cases. Bruen reiterated that the Second Amendment protects arms that are "in common use," as opposed to those that "are highly unusual in society at large." In doing so, the Court cited favorably to Justice Kavanaugh's Heller II dissent several times.

That's the context in which oral argument in Hanson was held. With intermediate scrutiny eliminated, the outcome of the case should be straightforward—the banned magazines are in common use for lawful purposes, and therefore they cannot be banned. While Judges Millett and Ginsburg asked several questions that appeared to challenge this result, it is inescapable under a proper application of Heller.

Plaintiffs' lawyer Edward Wenger was first up. Right away, Judge Millett jumped in with the observation that Bruen did away with intermediate scrutiny, but common use remained an issue. Was the court's observation in Heller II that magazines capable of holding more than 10 rounds are in common use binding on the court now?  The answer is yes—Bruen did nothing to undermine a holding that the banned magazines are in common use. Regardless, those magazines have only gotten even more numerous since Heller II was decided over a decade ago, so whether that aspect of the decision is binding is of little import.

Judge Ginsburg pointed out that while the court in Heller II stated that the banned magazines are in common use, it reserved decision on whether those magazines are commonly used for lawful purposes. While that technically is true, it ultimately does not matter. The government cannot prove that the tens of millions of Americans who own these magazines are criminals who possess them for unlawful purposes. The leading survey we have on use of magazines capable of holding more than ten rounds is the 2021 National Firearms Survey by Professor William English of Georgetown University. That survey found that approximately 39 million Americans have owned as many as 551 million magazines capable of holding over 10 rounds of ammunition. And they own them for a variety of lawful purposes, including recreational target shooting (64.3%), home defense (62.4%), hunting (47.0%), defense outside the home (41.7%), and competitive shooting sports (27.2%).

Judge Millett asked if "there's some level of magazine that could be prohibited as not in common use or not in common use for self-defense." (Again, "for self-defense" is not included in the test under Heller.) While theoretically that could be true, any such level would be well north of D.C.'s limit of 10 rounds. Again, tens of millions of Americans have owned hundreds of millions of these magazines.

Responding to the correct assertion that D.C. bears the burden under Bruen to show that the banned magazines are not in common use, Judge Millett commented that it is the plaintiffs who wish to change the status quo and that doing so would inflict irreparable harm on the District. It is true that the plaintiffs are challenging the status quo, but under Bruen the District has the burden to show that its law is consistent with the Second Amendment. And since it is not, there is no harm to the District from being precluded from enforcing an unconstitutional law. Instead, the irreparable harm in the case is being inflicted on the plaintiffs and the other residents of the District of Columbia who are being deprived on their fundamental right to keep and bear arms.

In any event, there is no plausible scenario in which the tens of millions of Americans who have owned magazines that are banned by D.C. are predominantly criminals. Indeed, given that there are hundreds of millions of these magazines, it is clear that only the tiniest percentage of them will ever be used in crime. As Judge Walker commented, this line of questioning seems to promote "a dim view of the American public." It simply cannot be the case that the tens of millions of Americans who choose these magazines are not using them for lawful purposes.

Next up was Ashwin Phatak, counsel for the District. Phatak argued that because there are 700,000 registered machine guns in the United States, the common use inquiry "can't just be a numerosity analysis." But Phatak's numbers are too high, because according to ATF data there are only about 176,000 registered machine guns owned by civilians in the country. See Hollis v. Lynch (5th Cir. 2016). The remaining machine guns are owned by state and local law enforcement or by licensed firearm manufacturers.  Regardless, whether the true number is 176,000 or 700,000, that is a far cry from the "500 million high-capacity magazines" cited by Judge Walker as a comparison.

Phatak looked for historical precedent in three states that during the Depression era restricted semiautomatic rifles with certain magazine capacities.  Of course, as Judge Walker pointed out, per Bruen, "three is not enough." And even if it were 30 it wouldn't matter: the question under Heller is whether the banned magazines are in common use today, not 100 years ago.

Phatak hypothesized that "if the National Firearms Act had been passed in 1954," and "far more machine guns had circulated," the plaintiffs would be arguing Second Amendment protection through common use. But as Judge Walker explained, "If it's dangerous, unusual, we would expect our legislators to step in and ban them before they become dangerous and usual." And the flip side of that is that if the American people determine that an arm is valuable for lawful purposes, we would not expect bans to persist across the country over a substantial period of time.

Judge Millett attempted to come to the rescue: "Manufacturers put out higher magazines, I need a higher magazine. It's like, new iPhone comes out, I got to have a new iPhone, new magazine comes out, I got to have a new magazine." Same for machine guns and grenade launchers.  Phatak's response: "I totally agree, Judge Millett."

But consumers don't buy types of weapons just because they are legal and available on the market. Machine guns were a commercial failure before being restricted in the NFA in 1934.  Grenade launchers weren't restricted until the 1968 amendments to the NFA, under which they are still lawful on registration with ATF and payment of the $200 tax.  How many consumers have them? And the reality that neither marketers nor advertising budgets can dictate to consumers is not limited to the marketplace for firearms. Our history is littered with failed consumer products, from the Ford Edsel to New Coke to Google Glass to countless Hollywood big budget busts.

Phatak rejected a standard of "what people feel they need," arguing that Heller looked at "the actual characteristics of handguns that make them useful for self-defense," such as "they can be held with one hand while you call the police." But the portion of Heller Phatak referenced here actually is devastating to his position. That is because immediately after discussing reasons why citizens may prefer handguns, Heller concluded that, "whatever the reason, handguns are the most popular weapon chosen by Americans for self-defense in the home, and a complete prohibition on their use is invalid." The focus of the Heller analysis is on what law-abiding Americans choose; judges and legislators are not authorized to second-guess those choices.

More softball questions from Judge Millett: "When did manufacturers start selling magazines over 10 with the semi-automatic handguns?" Phatak: Not "until at least the 1980s."  Wrong – e.g., the Browning Hi-Power with its 13-round magazine was introduced commercially in 1935. And in any event, it does not matter – they are in common use for lawful purposes today.

Phatak referenced statistics showing that the average number of shots fired in self-defense is two, and argued that "nobody needs the firepower where they can fire 11 rounds." But again, what is appropriate for self-defense is for the American people to decide, and they have decided that more ammunition capacity is better. And in any event, the most frequent number of shots fired in defensive gun uses actually is zero, since typically only brandishing a gun is required to deter a criminal attack. Does that mean the government could limit citizens to guns that fire blanks? Of course not.

The bottom line is that once it is evident that an item is a bearable arm, the government has the burden to show that it is not in common use.  If it cannot do so, the arm may not be banned.  That's the Heller-Bruen rule for arms-ban cases.

Judge Ginsburg is a capable and experienced jurist.  It was brought out clearly in Hanson that the common use test provided by Heller is straightforward and easy to apply. One hopes and expects that he will faithfully apply that test. But if we get another 2-1 déjà vu on D.C.'s magazine ban in Hanson, the Supreme Court ultimately will have to reverse Judge Ginsburg yet again.

The post Second Amendment Roundup: D.C.'s Magazine Ban Argued Again in D.C. Circuit appeared first on Reason.com.

https://reason.com/volokh/2024/02/20/second-amendment-roundup-d-c-s-magazine-ban-argued-again-in-d-c-circuit/

Crafty_Dog

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Body-by-Guinness

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Bumping Off the Legislative Process
« Reply #2511 on: February 27, 2024, 08:49:41 PM »
Bump stocks are stupid. If I ever have to stand downrange from someone annoyed with and shooting at me, I hope they have a bump stock hung on their gun as they will be less accurate and hence less likely to shoot me. With that said, the BATFE, anti-second amendment zealots, and sundry other bedwetters and handwringers don’t get to make the law. That is congress’s job and not that of those who believe they don’t need to be bothered by any stinking separation of powers whenever they seek to abridge the second tenth of the Bill of Rights:

Preview of Supreme Court bump stock case

Supreme Court to decide bump stock legality

•The Volokh Conspiracy / by David Kopel / Feb 27, 2024 at 8:25 PM

[In Cargill v. Garland, the Court should apply the National Firearms Act text that Congress did enact, and not the text that gun control advocates wish had been enacted. ]

Tomorrow, February 28, the Supreme Court will hear oral argument in Garland v. Cargill; the case challenges the administrative prohibition on bump stocks imposed by the Trump and Biden administrations, via interpretation by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE). The Supreme Court docket is here.

I co-authored an amicus brief in the case. The brief is on behalf on 9 U.S. Senators, led by Cynthia Lummis (R-Wyo.), 10 law/history professors, and the Independence Institute (the Denver think tank where I work).

Garland v. Cargill v. is not a Second Amendment challenge. The case is about administrative law: is BATFE's new interpretation of the relevant federal statute (the National Firearms Act of 1934) correct?

Despite the procedural posture, some gun prohibition advocates have been sending frantic emails to prospective donors, warning that if Cargill prevails, all of the bump stock laws enacted by state and local governments will be overturned. This is false. Presuming that the state and local laws were enacted according to proper procedures by state legislatures or city councils, a decision in favor of Mr. Cargill would have no effect on these laws.

The right to arms appears in the case only by implication, as explained in an excellent brief by the Second Amendment Law Center and other civil rights organizations: if BATFE in Cargill can get away with an egregious misinterpretation of the National Firearms Act, then BATFE's next step could be to declare that all semiautomatic firearms are "machineguns."

There are two main issues in Cargill v. Garland: first, principles of statutory interpretation. Second, interpretation of the statute at issue. The Senators' amicus brief addresses both.

Regarding principles of interpretation, the Senators are, unsurprisingly, much in favor of Article I of the Constitution, especially regarding federal criminal laws. Because criminal laws are so consequential, they should be clearly authorized by Congress, and should be clearly written so that citizens can obey them.

In two other cases this term, the Supreme Court is currently considering what do with the Chevron doctrine. (Loper Bright Enterprises v. Raimondo; Relentless, Inc. v. Department of Commerce.) As applied by lower courts, this doctrine holds that any reasonable interpretation by an executive branch of an ambiguous statute is lawful. The Senators argue that even if the Court decides to retain Chevron for certain matters, such as business regulation, Chevron should not be applied to criminal law. Citizens should not be made criminally liable for changing whims of regulatory agencies; here, for example, BATFE ruled 10 times that bump stock devices like those at issue in Cargill are not machine guns. Then, on orders from the President, BATFE adopted a completely contrary, novel interpretation.

Before the Supreme Court, the Solicitor General is not relying on Chevron deference. However, BATFE invoked Chevron deference when announcing its anti-precedential new interpretation, and several lower courts in other circuits upheld the new interpretation on the basis of Chevron.

A second interpretive rule is the Rule of Lenity: in criminal law, an ambiguous statute should be construed against the government. As the Senators argue, Congress has a duty to write clear laws, and enforcement of the Rule of Lenity provides an incentive to do so.

According to the Senators' amicus brief, once all the normal rules of statutory interpretation have been applied, if the statute is still ambiguous, then the Rule of Lenity controls.

However, some (not all) Supreme Court precedent suggests that the Rule of Lenity applies only if there is "grievous" ambiguity. The amicus brief argues that the traditional standard (any reasonable doubt as to statutory meaning) is better rooted in the Anglo-American legal tradition, starting with the universally-accepted principle of the Founding that criminal statutes must be strictly construed.

The Supreme Court followed this approach in a 1992 case involving the very same section of the U.S. Code at issue in Cargill, 26 U.S.C. sect. 5845. See United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Co., 504 U.S. 505 (1992). There, the plurality (Justice Souter) and the concurrence (Justice Scalia) both applied the standard rules of statutory interpretation, found that the statutory subsection was still ambiguous, and then immediately applied the Rule of Lenity, without considering whether the ambiguity was "grievous."

As for the statutory language at issue in Cargill, the National Firearms Act defines a "machinegun" as a that firearm fires "automatically more than one shot … by a single function of the trigger." 26 U.S.C. § 5845(b). Later, the Firearms Owners' Protection Act of 1986 outlawed the acquisition of new machine guns (manufactured after May 19, 1986) by persons other than government employees, and also treated machine gun conversion kits the same as machine guns.

A bump stock does not fit within the statutory definition. A bump stock device makes a firearm operate much more rapidly; like a machine gun, an ordinary gun with a bump stock can fire about four times as fast as an ordinary semiautomatic. However, a gun with a bump stock still fires only one shot per "function" of the trigger.

The Solicitor General and her amici argue at length that "single function of the trigger" should be interpreted to mean "single pull of the trigger." But, obviously, this is not what the statute says. If Congress had enacted a statute that instead said "single pull," then the statute would have exempted the WWI-era Maxim and Vickers machine guns, whose trigger is pushed rather than pulled.

As a fallback, the Solicitor General and amici claim that Congress meant for the National Firearms Act to apply to all rapid-fire guns. But this plainly is not true. The Gatling gun, first patented in 1861, could fire 300 rounds per minute, and by the 1880s could fire 1,200 per minute. It is undisputed that the National Firearms Act does not apply to traditional Gatling guns, which are operated by a hand crank. (Electric-powered Gatling guns are another matter.) The BATFE has twice so ruled.

Notably, neither the Solicitor General nor her amici address the contradiction between their claims of what they want the NFA mean versus the undisputed fact that rapid-fire Gatling guns are not covered by the NFA. If Congress in 1934 had meant to restrict firearms that have more than a particular rate of fire, Congress could have enacted a statute that did so. Given the words of the statute that Congress actually did enact, Cargill v. Garland ought to be an easy case.

The post Preview of Supreme Court bump stock case appeared first on Reason.com.

https://reason.com/volokh/2024/02/27/preview-of-supreme-court-bump-stock-case/


Crafty_Dog

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Re: We the Well-armed People (gun and knife rights stuff )
« Reply #2512 on: February 28, 2024, 05:12:08 AM »
Agreed that bump stocks are wildly inaccurate.

OTOH when it comes into shooting into a large group of people they get a lot of bullets flying in the general direction.   Witness Las Vegas.  To most people in effect this looks like a machine gun.

In our conversation with the American people, we need to engage with this.


Body-by-Guinness

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Re: We the Well-armed People (gun and knife rights stuff )
« Reply #2513 on: February 28, 2024, 09:33:33 AM »
Agreed that bump stocks are wildly inaccurate.

OTOH when it comes into shooting into a large group of people they get a lot of bullets flying in the general direction.   Witness Las Vegas.  To most people in effect this looks like a machine gun.

In our conversation with the American people, we need to engage with this.
I’m sorry Marc, but much of what we know about that incident doesn’t pass the stink test if you understand guns and indeed bump stocks. “Nine rounds per second,” for instance, is a claim regarding the rate of fire via those bump stocks in Las Vegas. Horseshit, impossible.

I generally HATE conspiracy theories for reason I can expound upon if need be. Alas, in view of all the ill-framed reporting et al regarding Trump, Biden, etc. I can’t help but suspect there is more to the story when a politically convenient incident occurs, particularly one where so many gaps in the record exists such as the Las Vegas shootings. I am certainly will to engage with whomever there, and my initial point will be “if the gun control people have sought in the wake of this incident indeed so critical to the safety of this nation why do those who favor it embrace so many lies and half truths?”

Crafty_Dog

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Re: We the Well-armed People (gun and knife rights stuff )
« Reply #2514 on: February 28, 2024, 02:55:03 PM »
I don't disagree. 

That said, not directly responsive to my intended point.

Before going further, first a question:

"OTOH when it comes into shooting into a large group of people, they get a lot of bullets flying in the general direction."

True or False?

Body-by-Guinness

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Re: We the Well-armed People (gun and knife rights stuff )
« Reply #2515 on: February 28, 2024, 03:07:57 PM »
I don't disagree. 

That said, not directly responsive to my intended point.

Before going further, first a question:

"OTOH when it comes into shooting into a large group of people, they get a lot of bullets flying in the general direction."

True or False?

True. And the largest mass murder in NYC was caused by a guy dumping a couple of quarts of gas on the only egress of an after hours night club.

Fuel can be used to ignite structures in a manner that can kill a lot of people. True or False (sic)?

It’s what follows the trail of bread crumbs the interlocutor has laid: therefor we should ban the sale of gasoline [or the containers they are sold in, or wooden stairways, or illegal after hour clubs {which are already illegal}, or whatever the fornication someone is seeking to impinge upon in a major way by disingenuous methods]. Just because a statement is true doesn’t mean I have to buy in to whatever conclusion someone is trying to lead me by the nose to, and I’ve been involved in second amendment debates long enough to know what’s coming and hence can’t see a reason to NOT cut to the chase.

Can you?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2024, 03:39:47 PM by Body-by-Guinness »

Crafty_Dog

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Re: We the Well-armed People (gun and knife rights stuff )
« Reply #2516 on: February 28, 2024, 06:08:17 PM »
My point is this:  Ordinary people of good intent see the bump stock as creating a machine gun/genuine assault rifle-- something from which we have vociferously distinguished our AR-15s.   So now they experience us as speaking with cognitive dissonance if/when we defend bump stocks.

And now, to muddy the waters further, here is this:

https://washingtonstand.com/news/china-funnels-machine-gun-parts-into-us-while-expanding-space-weapon-arsenal

« Last Edit: February 28, 2024, 06:55:26 PM by Crafty_Dog »

Body-by-Guinness

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Re: We the Well-armed People (gun and knife rights stuff )
« Reply #2517 on: February 28, 2024, 06:28:13 PM »
My point is this:  Ordinary people of good intent see the bump stock as creating a machine gun/genuine assault rifle-- something from which we have vociferously distinguished our AR-15s.   So now they experience us as speaking with cognitive dissonance if/when we defend bump stocks.

Which is exactly what those who seek to abrogate the second tenth of the Bill of Rights by extraconstitutional means intend. You seem to expect me to participate in that process by respecting it to some degree, rather than by saying—as I did—that bump stocks are silly, do anything but enhance accuracy, but should not be banned via disingenuous methods and smoke and mirrors.

Again, I am not aware of ANY anti-gun argument that does not rely on half-truths and outright falsehoods, yet for some reason I’m supposed to treat these consistent means the antis embrace as something deserving of anything but contempt? No thanks. I’ll take someone to the range instead—and I’m probably into low four digits where shooting students are concerned—and teach them how silly the antis are instead.

Indeed, I think a recent poll I saw confirms that’s the way to treat this as mid-30 percent of Dems now have a gun in the house and IIRC it was around 40 percent for blacks. We are winning the argument. Why the fuck would I want to debate this stuff on my enemy’s terms?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2024, 06:29:53 PM by Body-by-Guinness »

Body-by-Guinness

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More on Bump Stocks
« Reply #2518 on: February 28, 2024, 11:43:23 PM »

Body-by-Guinness

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CA Ammo Licensing Requirement Struck Down
« Reply #2519 on: March 01, 2024, 10:07:59 AM »
CA sites racists laws banning blacks, Indians, etc. from gun ownership (among other folly) while arguing for this ammo purchasers licensing scheme:

How This California Ammunition Law Fell Over Itself
by CLAYTON CRAMER posted on February 4, 2024
NEWS
 
Support NRA America's 1st Freedom

For the second time, a federal judge has struck down a California law requiring background checks for purchasing ammunition. U.S. District Judge Roger Benitez of San Diego said the law, which took effect in 2019, “treats all citizens as if they do not enjoy a right to buy ammunition. It forces Americans to entreat and supplicate the state for permission.”

California voters, in 2016, approved Proposition 63, which required Californians to acquire a purchase permit and present it in order to buy ammunition. It was supposed to cost $50 and was good for four years. But the California legislature amended Proposition 63 before it could be implemented with a more complicated system, requiring a background check for every ammunition purchase. To pay for the background checks, a fee also had to be paid each time someone bought ammo.

The law also prohibited purchasing ammunition by mail or bringing ammunition in from other states. You could avoid this when buying ammunition at a commercial range, but the ammo could not leave the range.

In this case, the plaintiff who sued was Kim Rhode, the Olympic trap and skeet shooter who won medals in six consecutive Olympics. Rhode is a Californian. To compete, she has to practice; a lot. If she competes outside California and buys ammo there, she cannot bring any of it home, nor can she mail order it by the ton, as she needs to do. (It takes a lot of practice to win gold.) The case is Rhode v. Bonta (S.D.Cal. 2024).

The background-check law was a mess. In 2019, during the system’s first seven months, over 100,000 law-abiding citizens were rejected—about 16% of the purchase attempts. These were almost entirely recordkeeping errors or mismatches on names (“Bobby,” not “Robert”; a misspelled middle name; or a person having a similar name as someone who is prohibited from owning firearms).

By 2023, California had made some improvements to its system, as only 11% of the law-abiding were rejected. Theoretically, these erroneous rejections can be fixed, but more than a third who first tried to buy ammunition had not done so six months later. It is unknown what percentage of these people were law-abiding citizens who just gave up.

Okay, the system rejected a lot of apparently lawful buyers, but what about the bad guys it rejected? In the first seven months, 770 people were rejected as “prohibited persons.” Sixteen, at least, were not really prohibited persons. Those remaining 754 led to 51 investigations, 15 arrests and six criminal convictions. These must be the prohibited who thought the background check was not smart enough to catch them or had forgotten they had a felony conviction. So, all this cost and trouble was to take away ammunition from a tiny number of possible criminals who didn’t think the teeth of the justice system would sift them out and chew them up.

In Rhode v. Bonta, Judge Benitez writes that the obvious flaw in the ammunition-background-check law was that it disregarded the Second Amendment. The right to keep and bear arms is meaningless without the right to buy ammunition. Think of the freedom of the press if you needed government permission to buy ink and paper.

Judge Benitez compared this law to a Texas state law requiring identification documents to vote.  The Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals has ruled that Texas denying 4.5% of the population the right to vote violated the Fifteenth Amendment and that law was therefore unconstitutional. A California law that then denies 11% of its population from lawfully purchasing ammunition violates the Second Amendment.

The U.S. Supreme Court’s Bruen (2022) decision requires states that wish to defend a gun law must show that there was some similar law in the Founding Era. If a similar law existed between 1791 and 1868 (from when U.S. Bill of Rights was ratified to when the Fourteenth Amendment was passed), then it just might be constitutional.

California’s historical examples were bad. The state produced a list of 148 laws. Some dated from the 1400s, which Bruen specifically rejected as too far removed from the Founding Era. At least 40 laws were passed after 1868 and some were from the 20th century—way too late. None of the laws from the relevant date range required a background check to buy ammunition.  Therefore, those 148 laws California presented were not relevant to the constitutionality of this law.

For this case, I produced a rebuttal to their “expert” witnesses. Many of the witnesses for the state were embarrassingly bad; their experts actually cited laws that prohibited white traders from buying guns (not ammunition) from Native Americans.

The best part of Benitez’s decision was:

The State’s compilation lists 48 laws which made it a crime to possess a gun and ammunition by Negros, Mulattos, slaves, or persons of color, and two laws that prohibited sales to Indians. For example, the Attorney General lists a 1798 Kentucky law which prohibited any “Negro, mulatto, or Indian” from possessing any gun or ammunition. An 1846 North Carolina law offers another example wherein it was prohibited to sell or deliver firearms to “any slave.” This is the third time the Attorney General has cited these laws in support for its laws and restrictions implicating the Second Amendment. These fifty laws identified by the Attorney General constitute a long, embarrassing, disgusting, insidious, reprehensible list of examples of government tyranny towards our own people.

California and its experts have been defending California gun laws for several years by citing racist laws as evidence that gun control is part of the American history and tradition. This is so inconceivably hypocritical that I would sound like an extremist by just quoting them.

Judge Benitez also pointed out that the U.S. Constitution grants Congress the authority to pass laws regulating interstate commerce. For the first few decades, the courts recognized this as a limit on the authority of states to regulate interstate commerce; the federal government was the only level of government that could prohibit a company in Oregon from selling goods in California. This is called the Dormant Commerce Clause. Judge Benitez pulled this out to hold that banning shipments of ammo to California is unlawful.

Finally, he brought out the Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986 (FOPA). You likely know that if you are travelling from one state where your firearms and ammunition may be lawfully possessed to another state where your firearms and ammunition may be lawfully possessed that you can travel with those guns, as well as the ammunition for them, if the firearms are unloaded, locked in a case and not accessible to passengers or driver. Should you travel through an area while on your journey where the\\re are restrictions on transporting or possessing your particular firearms or ammunition, FOPA offers protection against prosecution for violating those laws and, thus, overrides California’s law because it is not a restriction on possessing the ammunition, but on transporting it.

Unlike some other decisions where judges (even Benitez) have granted California a “stay,” or delay in the ruling going into effect to give the state time to appeal, this decision took effect immediately.

It is safe to assume that the state of California will file an appeal to challenge this ruling.

https://www.americas1stfreedom.org/content/how-this-california-ammunition-law-fell-over-itself/

Body-by-Guinness

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School Shooting Graphics and Info
« Reply #2520 on: March 01, 2024, 03:35:26 PM »
Those of us in the firearms training biz call areas where no guns are allowed “criminal empowerment zones” as criminals ignore ‘em while the law abiding are deprived of effective self-defense. This info packed series of graphics help demonstrate “gun control” laws are not effective w/ the data implying they are indeed counterproductive:

https://ammo.com/articles/gun-free-zones-and-school-shootings?utm_source=Bloggers&utm_campaign=d5e77d5e3a-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2024_01_25_09_37_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_-80e2853e7e-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D

Body-by-Guinness

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Number of Modern Sporting Rifles in Use
« Reply #2521 on: March 01, 2024, 04:23:26 PM »


DougMacG

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Wayne LaPierre, This reflects badly on the NRA?
« Reply #2523 on: March 07, 2024, 12:02:43 PM »

Crafty_Dog

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Re: We the Well-armed People (gun and knife rights stuff )
« Reply #2524 on: March 07, 2024, 01:44:56 PM »
I belong to Gun Owners of America.

Also look for Gun Rights orgs dedicated to your particular state.

Body-by-Guinness

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Re: Wayne LaPierre, This reflects badly on the NRA?
« Reply #2525 on: March 07, 2024, 03:11:39 PM »
https://www.ammoland.com/2024/03/nra-wayne-lapierre-cost-gun-rights-movement-north-of-billion-dollars/?ct=t(RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN)#axzz8TiW0rLsf

[Doug] Is there another organization of support that manages it's money a little better?

Second Amendment Foundation has done some great work, as has Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership.

Have no experience with ‘em, but there is a Minnesota specific org too: https://www.minnesotagunrights.org/ I belong to the Virginia equivalent.

I’m an NRA Endowment member, which means I’m a Life Member with some garnish on it Seems like every time I up my membership level it turns out there is yet another level I was unaware of. However, ever since Wayne stepped on his weenie I’ve not given ‘em a dime and will be watching reform efforts closely to see if it does indeed take root. I am a voting member and always throw all my votes behind reform candidates and hope it is indeed a new day.

Crafty_Dog

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Re: We the Well-armed People (gun and knife rights stuff )
« Reply #2526 on: March 07, 2024, 04:05:19 PM »
I'm done with NRA and have been for quite some time.

Body-by-Guinness

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Re: We the Well-armed People (gun and knife rights stuff )
« Reply #2527 on: March 07, 2024, 05:01:07 PM »
I'm done with NRA and have been for quite some time.
Alas, my instructor credentials (well, some of ‘em) are under the NRA, where I’m what’s known as a Training Counselor, meaning someone who can mint new NRA rifle, pistol, shotgun, or CCW instructors. Though it’s changing, those creds are specifically accepted as ones needed to meet the CHP/CCW requirement of many states. I’ll also note that, at least until freaking Wayne started selling the store so he could fund his legal defense guised as defending the NRA, the Education and Training unit was staffed by some great folks, most of whom who quit when things nose dived around the NRA.

As that may be, my response to Waynes antics were to stop contributing, send every beg-a-thon solicitation back stating not one thin dime until Wayne was gone, without tossing the baby out w/ the bathwater by renouncing my training creds and hence my ability to mint like-minded instructors and provide students with training needed to receive their CHP.

Body-by-Guinness

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GA Bill Makes those Forbidding Effective Self-Defense …
« Reply #2528 on: March 07, 2024, 05:06:17 PM »
… responsible and hence liable for any injuries that occur where CHP holders are precluded from carrying their guns:

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/ga-bill-would-make-property-owners-liable-for-injuries-in-gun-free-zones/

Crafty_Dog

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Re: We the Well-armed People (gun and knife rights stuff )
« Reply #2529 on: March 07, 2024, 06:40:01 PM »
"without tossing the baby out w/ the bathwater by renouncing my training creds and hence my ability to mint like-minded instructors and provide students with training needed to receive their CHP."

Fair point!

===========

Love that GA bill!
« Last Edit: March 07, 2024, 07:00:54 PM by Crafty_Dog »


Body-by-Guinness

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Senior ATF Goons Demonstrate they have Few Clues re Firearms
« Reply #2531 on: March 08, 2024, 05:33:45 PM »
And likely don’t have sense enough to be embarrassed due to it:

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/atf-director-faces-the-nation-with-his-ignorance-of-firearms/


Body-by-Guinness

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Body-by-Guinness

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Amicus Brief Filed in MD’s AR Ban Court Case
« Reply #2534 on: March 18, 2024, 04:15:28 PM »
Scary black AR rifles get treatment similar to bump stocks, yet have far more utility. This piece speaks to an Amicus brief filed on behalf of plaintiffs taking issue w/ MD’s AR ban:

Law Enforcement Trainers File Scotus Amicus Brief against Maryland Rifle Ban

The Volokh Conspiracy / by David Kopel / Mar 18, 2024 at 5:38 PM

[Citizens should be able to choose the same high-quality defensive arms that peace officers choose]

Last week the International Law Enforcement Educators & Trainers Association filed an amicus brief in a U.S. Supreme Court case challenging Maryland's ban on many common semiautomatic rifles. The case is Bianchi v. Brown, and it has an unusual procedural posture; it is a petition for certiorari before judgement. Yet the case is one on which the U.S. Supreme Court has already ruled.

This post will first summarize the amicus brief, and then provide the procedural background, which is detailed in the Bianchi plaintiffs' cert. petition.

The facts about the banned rifles

As detailed in the amicus brief, the semiautomatic rifles banned by the Maryland General Assembly fire only one shot each time the trigger is pressed. This is the same rate of fire as the most common semiautomatic handguns, such as those made by Glock, Smith & Wesson, or Ruger.

The claim by gun prohibition advocates that such guns fire 300 to 500 times per minute has no basis in fact, and is contrary to common sense. It would take a superhuman trigger finger pull a trigger at the rate of 5 to 8 times per second, let alone do so for a full minute.

Nor are the banned rifles, including those based on the AR-15 platform, more powerful than nonbanned rifles. To the contrary, their standard ammunition is .223 inch or 5.56mm bullets that are small compared to most other rifle ammunition. Accordingly, their kinetic energy is lower.

Because the banned rifles are more powerful than handguns, but less powerful than most other rifles, the relatively low wounding power of this ammunition has been confirmed by decades of study by the US Army's Ballistic Research Laboratory.

Moreover, as documented in police training manuals, the banned rifles are the safest for defensive use within buildings, because their ammunition is especially unlikely to penetrate a wall.

The deadliest firearms in mass shootings are handguns. Researchers led by Dr. Babak Sarani, founder and chief of the Center for Trauma and Critical Care at George Washington University Hospital, examined the relationship between the type of firearm used, wounding characteristics, and probability of death in mass shootings. Babak Sarani, et al., Wounding Patterns Based on Firearm Type in Civilian Public Mass Shootings in the United States, 228 J. Amer. College Surgeons 228 (Mar. 2019). They studied firearm types and autopsy reports for 232 victims from 23 mass shootings, including high-casualty shootings with "assault weapons" at Orlando and Las Vegas.

Surprisingly, the researchers found that mass shootings with handguns are more lethal than those with rifles because handguns result in more wounds per victim and more injuries to vital organs. Id. at 228-29, 232-33. "All of us were shocked," Dr. Sarani said. "We came to the table with our bias that an assault weapon would be worse." Carolyn Crist, Handguns More Lethal Than Rifles in Mass Shootings, Reuters (Dec. 31, 2018).

Law enforcement perspectives

Because the banned rifles are relatively low-powered, their recoil is lower, and hence they are more accurate. Additionally, the rifles are replete with features (outlawed by Maryland) that enhance accuracy.

For example, a telescoping stock can adjust for a precise fit to the user's size. The customizable forward grip provides stability. Surrounding the barrel are rails (sometimes called the handguard or forend) that make it easy to add optics, such as scopes, red dots, and/or flashlights – all for greater accuracy.

So it is no wonder that these semiautomatic rifles are very commonly chosen by law enforcement officers to carry in their patrol cars. Law enforcement officers choose their patrol rifles for only one purpose: lawful defense of self and others. It is preposterous for a legislature to claim (falsely) that these rifles are "weapons of war," are useless for self-defense, and are made only for mass killing. This is a libel against law-abiding law enforcement officers.

Prudently, American citizens have always looked to law enforcement for guidance in choosing defensive firearms, because law enforcement firearms are selected with care. Officers choose their duty arms for one purpose: lawful defense of self and others.

The most important reason why citizens often do and should copy law enforcement officers' firearms selections is to ensure that citizens will have reliable firearms for defense. Officers' arms are well-suited for defense against violent criminals; and they are appropriate for use in civil society.

Law enforcement officers are not soldiers wielding weapons of war, and their interactions with citizens are not governed by rules of engagement for the battlefield. The challenged statute implicitly denigrates peace officers by treating them like an occupying army. Such negative attitudes make the public less willing to cooperate with law enforcement and damage community relations.

Procedural background

In 2013, the Maryland General Assembly enacted a sweeping ban on many semiautomatic rifles, particularly targeting those that are most useful for lawful defense of self and others. The ban was promptly challenged in Kolbe v. Hogan, a case which went through the complete discovery process.

At the time, the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals, like most but not all other Circuits, evaluated Second Amendment cases under a "Two-Part Test," which was similar to the three tiers of scrutiny that had been used for free speech and equal protection cases. The district court applied a weak form of intermediate scrutiny and upheld the ban. Kolbe v. O'Malley, 42 F. Supp. 3d 768 (D. Md. 2014). Then, a three-judge panel of the Fourth Circuit held that—because the statute banned many common arms—strict scrutiny was the proper standard. Kolbe v. Hogan, 813 F.3d 160 (4th Cir. 2016)

Before the remanded case could be decided the the District Court, the Fourth Circuit took the case en banc, and the majority ruled hat the banned arms are not even covered by the Second Amendment. By the en banc majority's theory, lightly premised on a tendentious reading of the Supreme Court's District of Columbia v. Heller, arms that are mainly suitable for military use are not part of the Second Amendment. Kolbe v. Hogan, 849 F.3d 114 (4th Cir. 2017).

The majority rationale was out of touch with current facts, since no military in the world uses semiautomatic-only rifles. The U.S. military and others choose service rifles that are capable of automatic fire. More fundamentally, the Kolbe majority rationale would deny Second Amendment protection to the very arms with which Americans won their War of Independence—namely the personally-owned muskets and rifles that American Patriots brought to service, because those were the arms that the States and the colonies had specified by statute were the best arms for the militia.

When plaintiffs petitioned for certiorari, Randy Barnett, Ilya Shapiro, Joseph Greenlee, and I wrote an amicus brief on behalf of the National Sheriffs' Association and other organizations. Certiorari was denied in 2017. At the time, the Supreme Court was refusing to take almost any case involving the Second Amendment. (The only notable exception was Caetono v. Massachusetts, a 2016 challenge to the now-defunct Massachusetts ban on electric stun guns.)

A new case, challenging only the gun ban (and not other 2013 items, such as a magazine ban) was filed in 2020. The District Court quickly dismissed the case based on Kolbe, and a Fourth Circuit panel tersely affirmed. Plaintiffs petitioned for certiorari.

A few days after the Supreme Court decided New York State Rifle & Pistol Association v. Bruen, the Court granted, vacated, and remanded three cases for reconsideration in light of Bruen. One of them was the Maryland firearms ban case, now known as Bianchi v. Frosh. 142 S. Ct. 2898, 2899 (Mem.) (2022). (The other two cases were magazine bans from the Third and Ninth Circuits.)

The June 2022 remand led to oral argument before a three-judge Fourth Circuit panel in December 2022. The panel took over a year to write an opinion. Then, while the draft opinion was presumably being circulated among the Circuit's other judges, the Fourth Circuit sua sponte took the case away from the panel, and in January 2024 took the case en banc. The iron rule of Fourth Circuit jurisprudence has always been that no decision in support of a Second Amendment plaintiff can survive the process of appellate review. See Kopel, Data Indicate Second Amendment Underenforcement, 68 Duke Law Journal Online 79 (2018) (also noting same problem in Second and Ninth Circuits).

The Bianchi plaintiffs, represented by David Thompson of the D.C. constitutional litigation boutique Cooper & Kirk, petitioned for certiorari before judgement. They argued that the Fourth Circuit's dilatory procedures are an obvious attempt to evade Supreme Court precedent, which clearly dictates a ruling against the Maryland ban.

Perhaps as result of the cert. petition, the Fourth Circuit has scheduled a prompt en banc oral argument, on March 20.

Shortly after the Bianchi petition for certiorari before final judgement was filed, similar petitions were filed for several cases involving an especially draconian gun ban enacted in Illinois in 2023. The results in the district courts on preliminary injunction motions had been mixed, and the Seventh Circuit considered them all together. In Bevis v. City of Naperville, 85 F.4th 1175 (7th Cir. 2023), a three-judge panel led by Judge Easterbrook relied on Kolbe, and held that the banning of a vast number of common firearms had nothing to do with the Second Amendment. In his view, the Second Amendment does not apply to arms "reserved to the military."

Judge Easterbrook's opinion would have been doctrinally solid if he had been interpreting the Mexican Constitution's right to arms, which states:

Article 10. The inhabitants of the United Mexican States have a right to arms in their homes, for security and legitimate defense, with the exception of arms prohibited by federal law and those reserved for the exclusive use of the Army, Navy, Air Force, and National Guard. Federal law will determine the cases, conditions, requirements, and places in which the carrying of arms will be authorized to the inhabitants.

See Kopel, Mexico's Gun Control Laws: A Model for the United States? 18 Texas Review of Law & Politics 27 (2013). But even if the U.S. constitutional right to arms had copied Mexico's, Judge Easterbrook still would have been wrong on the facts, because the arms banned in Illinois are not used by the U.S. military. And despite what Judge Easterbrook claimed, the banned firearms do not function like machine guns.

The post Law Enforcement Trainers File Scotus Amicus Brief against Maryland Rifle Ban appeared first on Reason.com.

https://reason.com/volokh/2024/03/18/law-enforcement-trainers-file-scotus-amicus-brief-against-maryland-rifle-ban/

Crafty_Dog

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Re: We the Well-armed People (gun and knife rights stuff )
« Reply #2535 on: March 18, 2024, 05:16:50 PM »
Nice find.

ccp

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obama judge rules ok for gun ownership
« Reply #2536 on: March 19, 2024, 02:26:36 PM »
for an undocumented illegal:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/undocumented-immigrants-have-right-to-own-guns-judge-rules/ar-BB1kal26

this is almost as though the leftist judge is cynically bastardizing
existing law to protect citizens gunrights to extend to people who are in the US illegally,


Body-by-Guinness

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NRA v. Vullo
« Reply #2537 on: March 21, 2024, 03:35:58 PM »
NY fiscal regulator tried to stop financial companies based in NY (meaning most of ‘em nationwide) from doing business w/ the NRA. ACLU joins (!?!) the NRA in this first amendment filing expected to be decided by June:

NRA Defends Freedom in Supreme Court Argument

TUESDAY, MARCH 19, 2024 NRA Defends Freedom in Supreme Court Argument

The NRA’s commitment to freedom was on full display again this week.

On Monday, March 18, the Court heard oral arguments in the NRA v. Maria T. Vullo case – one of the nation’s most important First Amendment matters. Vullo is the former financial regulator in New York who tried to “financially blacklist” the NRA in 2018.

The NRA argues that Vullo, at the behest of former New York Governor Andrew Cuomo, took aim at the NRA and used the regulatory power of the Department of Financial Services (DFS) to financially blacklist the NRA – coercing banks and insurers to avoid ties with the Association in order to suppress its pro-Second Amendment speech.

The NRA argues that Vullo’s actions were meant to silence the NRA – using “guidance letters,” backroom threats, and other measures to cause financial institutions to “drop” the Association.

In response, on May 11, 2018, the NRA filed suit to enjoin the campaign and for money damages. After winning in the trial court, the NRA's case was dismissed by the Second Circuit Court of Appeals in New York. Thereafter, the Association took its case to the highest court in the land. The NRA is joined by the ACLU, legal experts, constitutional scholars, and 25 states in opposing Vullo’s actions.

ACLU National Legal Director and NRA counsel David Cole argued on Monday that Vullo and other New York officials abused their authority in violation of the First Amendment, telling the justices: “There's no question on this record that they encouraged people to punish the NRA." Cole said, “It was a campaign by the state’s highest political officials to use their power to coerce a boycott of a political advocacy organization because they disagreed with its advocacy.”

The U.S. Department of Justice also sided with the NRA, as Assistant to the Solicitor General Ephraim McDowell argued that the court should find that New York officials violated the NRA’s First Amendment rights.

Twenty-two amicus briefs representing more than 190 individuals and organizations were filed in support of the NRA’s position, including a filing by several of the nation’s foremost First Amendment scholars. The amicus briefs also include a joint filing by dozens of congressional Republicans and filings by 25 state attorneys general. The support came from across the political spectrum.

“This is the moment of truth for the NRA and its millions of members," says NRA interim EVP & CEO Andrew Arulanandam. "We were honored to be before the Supreme Court – protecting our First Amendment rights to defend Second Amendment freedom. We will never shrink from the fight to defend the values and freedoms of America."

NRA counsel William A. Brewer III said, “This case is important to the NRA and all advocacy organizations who rely upon the protections of the First Amendment. Every advocacy group will benefit if the Court reminds government officials that they cannot use intimidation tactics, backdoor censorship, or regulatory blacklisting to silence those with whom they disagree.”

George Washington University Law School Professor Jonathan Turley has said NRA v. Vullo “could prove to be one of the most important free speech cases of the decade.”

A ruling is expected this June.

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20240319/nra-defends-freedom-in-supreme-court-argument


Body-by-Guinness

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ATF Loses Another
« Reply #2539 on: April 01, 2024, 12:45:39 PM »
Though I’ve plenty of qualms where the NRA is concerned, here’s one where membership pays off:

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20240401/nra-scores-legal-victory-against-atf-pistol-brace-rule-enjoined-from-going-into-effect-against-nra-members

Crafty_Dog

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Aliens and the Second Amendment
« Reply #2540 on: April 08, 2024, 05:46:47 AM »
https://washingtontimes-dc.newsmemory.com/?token=fd2468925b7dc45a22722e457d019074_6613edab_6d25b5f&selDate=20240408

Migrants’ gun rights at issue in appeal

U.S. urges reversal of case’s dismissal

BY STEPHEN DINAN THE WASHINGTON TIMES

The federal government is appealing a judge’s ruling that found the Constitution allows some immigrants without documentation to possess guns, plowing new ground in the quickly evolving debate over Second Amendment rights.

The Justice Department filed its notice of appeal Thursday with Judge Sharon Johnson Coleman, whose ruling last month dismissed charges against an undocumented immigrant who’d been prosecuted for gun possession after he started blasting away at cars driving by him in Chicago’s Little Village neighborhood.

Judge Coleman said that a 2022 Supreme Court case upended away a longstanding federal ban on immigrants who are in the U.S. illegally possessing guns, effectively erasing the case against Heriberto Carbajal-Flores.

She’s the second judge to rule that way, following a similar case last year in Texas. Most judges who have grappled with the issue have come down on the other side, setting up a legal clash that will play out.

The Illinois and Texas cases are now with appeals courts, testing new frontiers in both gun and immigration law.

Pratheepan Gulasekaram, a law professor at the University of Colorado Bounder said it wasn’t surprising the feds appealed.

“It can be a highly impactful ruling and I’m sure the government has a significant interest in wanting to get a ruling that maintains the integrity of the federal firearms regulation system,” he told The Washington Times.

Under existing law, the migrants are one of a series of categories of what’s known as “prohibited purchasers,” or individuals who are not allowed to obtain or possess a gun. Among the other bans are felons, those with intellectual disabilities, drug users and those dishonorably discharged from military service.

But things got complicated two years ago when the justices issued their decision in a case known as Bruen, where they struck down a state law that severely limited who could obtain a concealed-carry permit. In his majority opinion Justice Clarence Thomas wrote that for firearms restrictions to survive Second Amendment scrutiny, they must have been the type of law countenanced at the time Congress wrote and the country ratified the amendment.

Judge Coleman said the key analogy in early history was a bar on British loyalists, and even that was not categorical. They could regain gun rights as long as they swore a loyalty oath, in effect signifying they weren’t untrustworthy or dangerous.

For Mr. Carbajal-Flores, she said she could find no evidence that he was dangerous, and so despite his unlawful presence he isn’t automatically barred.

“The Court finds that Carbajal-Flores’ criminal record, containing no improper use of a weapon, as well as the non-violent circumstances of his arrest do not support a finding that he poses a risk to public safety such that he cannot be trusted to use a weapon responsibly and should be deprived of his Second Amendment right to bear arms in self-defense. Thus, this Court finds that, as applied to Carbajal-Flores, Section 922(g)(5) is unconstitutional,” she wrote.

Judge Coleman’s ruling only applies to Mr. Carbajal- Flores and doesn’t purport to strike down the law, though that could be the result as his case, and the one in Texas involving Antonio Sing-Ledezma, an immigrant who is in the country illegally, wind through the appeals process.

“What you see in Carbajal-Flores and also Sing-Ledezma, the other case, is a real focus on Bruen’s methodology and the question of gun regulation,” Mr. Gulasekaram said, “It’s not going to treat the regulation of noncitizens differently and it’s arguably a faithful application of Bruen.”

Mr. Carbajel-Flores’ case is just one of a series of gun cases winding their way through the courts in the wake of Bruen.

They cover challenges both to types of weapons and so-called “prohibited purchasers” who, under existing law, are banned from buying or possessing a weapon.

Hunter Biden, son of President Biden, has argued that the prohibition on drug users purchasing guns is unconstitutional, which would negate some charges against him.

And the Supreme Court is currently deciding whether a prohibition on domestic violence suspects is constitutional under Bruen’s framework. Legal experts figure that ruling will shed light on the other challenges.

Indeed, the Sing-Ledezma case out of Texas has been put on hold by a circuit appeals court pending the justices’ decision in the domestic violence case.

Two federal appeals courts, meanwhile, have heard arguments recently in cases challenging California’s ban on high-capacity ammunition magazines and Maryland’s ban on some semiautomatic rifles such as the popular AR-15-style rifle.

The Sing-Ledezma and Carbajal-Flores cases are, for now, outliers. Other courts have revisited undocumented immigrants and guns in the wake of the Bruen ruling and concluded that the categorical bar is still valid.

Those judges have focused less on the Second Amendment and more on the immigrants who are in the U.S. illegally, finding that they are outside the definition of “the people” that the amendment grants the right to bear arms.

That argument resonated with Aidan Johnston, director of federal affairs at Gun Owners of America.

“Illegal aliens, people who are unlawfully president in the United States, are not part of ‘the people,’” he said.

He said Judge Coleman was “anti-gun” and was “willfully misinterpreting” the Supreme Court’s cases to try to upend the Second Amendment.

But Mr. Gulasekaram, whose research focuses on immigrants and constitutional rights, said he can find no basis in the Constitution to say that the Second Amendment wasn’t intended to apply to everyone, including noncitizens here unlawfully.

If the courts were to draw those lines, he said, it would be “quite dangerous” in terms of where the end-point would be and whether immigrants would also be exempt from the right to a jury or the right to remain silent in a criminal proceeding.

“What you’re essentially countenancing is a twotier constitutional system, one for citizens, one for noncitizens,” he said.

Crafty_Dog

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« Reply #2541 on: April 09, 2024, 09:38:40 AM »
(2) BIDEN APPEALS IMMIGRANT GUN CASE AMID WORK PERMIT SURGE: The Department of Justice filed a notice to appeal Illinois Judge Sharon Coleman’s ruling that illegal immigrants can legally possess firearms after the landmark Supreme Court case New York Rifle and Pistol Association v. Bruen.

A Department of Homeland Security (DHS) spokesperson said the Biden administration has “taken many steps to make sure that individuals who are eligible for employment authorization are informed, and, where possible, to accelerate the processing of employment authorization documents.”

Why It Matters: The Supreme Court will likely take up this appeal to resolve a circuit split. Illinois Judge Coleman is likely setting up a Supreme Court decision that will allow DACA and federal work permit-holding state and local police to possess their service weapons while off duty, removing the primary obstacle to police agencies hiring illegal immigrants. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (BATF), Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA), and federal work permit holders can be issued firearms for duty use by government police agencies without violating the Gun Control Act. – R.C.

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« Last Edit: April 12, 2024, 10:04:31 AM by Crafty_Dog »

Body-by-Guinness

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Shooting in and Around Cars
« Reply #2544 on: April 18, 2024, 04:49:34 AM »
I’m a firearms trainer and generally stay in my lane by teaching beginning and intermediate transitioning stuff. I’ve taken my share of advance training, though, and intend to take a vehicle based class this year. I think those that carry a firearm need to be at least acquainted w/ this material:

https://www.recoilweb.com/vehicle-cover-concealment-183950.html

DougMacG

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Re: Shooting in and Around Cars
« Reply #2545 on: April 18, 2024, 08:29:33 AM »
""generally stay in my lane by teaching beginning and intermediate transitioning stuff."

  - Thanks for this BBG. I just want to add that beginner-intermediate level material is appreciated as well. I can attest, not all here are experts.

Crafty_Dog

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Re: We the Well-armed People (gun and knife rights stuff ) Second Amendment
« Reply #2546 on: April 18, 2024, 02:00:19 PM »
I have done such training at PSR:


DougMacG

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Re: Finland's bold new policy
« Reply #2548 on: April 21, 2024, 09:12:27 AM »
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/finland-s-bold-new-firearm-policy-sets-global-standard/ss-BB1lNEKx?ocid=msedgntp&pc=DCTS&cvid=0dcae7a613144f789ad4dd086007f58b&ei=3


Wow! Pretty easy to imagine how this could be successful.

"a proactive strategy to enhance national security..."

A few thoughts come to mind.

Mass shooters and other criminals love unarmed venues and unarmed citizens.  Even the suicidal ones seek out places where they unlikely to see immediate return fire.

An invading force, Russia for example (or Sweden?) might not want to go house to house against a heavily armed citizenry.

And of course, protecting people against the possibility of their government becoming tyrannical, as they watch that happen in so many other places.

We don't want the government owning our gun ranges, but... there certainly could be more classes offered at the community ed level.

Instead our government does everything it can to hinder our preparedness.

Crafty_Dog

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Re: We the Well-armed People (gun and knife rights stuff ) Second Amendment
« Reply #2549 on: April 21, 2024, 04:04:33 PM »
"We don't want the government owning our gun ranges, but... "

Historical note:

When the Bill of Rights was passed it did not apply to the States.  That process began only after the passage of the Civil War Amendments.

At the time the term "well-regulated" meant "smoothly running" e.g. a well regulated watch was an accurate watch.  What was envisioned was regularly training of the militia by the individual States.  In their failure to do so, the militia(s) became "the unorganized militia" see Title 10 Section 331 and related sections.