Author Topic: Israel, and its neighbors  (Read 980946 times)

Crafty_Dog

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Biden caves on Israel
« Reply #2750 on: November 07, 2023, 09:14:32 AM »
a) Tail wags for the kind words'

b)  "Two Jews WHOM I admire!" -- the Grammar Nazi-- to observe and correct!  :-D

c)  https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/11/joe-biden-caves-on-israel/

ccp

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Newsweeks Arahs Azizi on Obama speech
« Reply #2751 on: November 07, 2023, 09:38:20 AM »
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/why-progressives-should-heed-obama-s-call-on-israel-palestine-opinion/ar-AA1jxrg0?ocid=msedgntp&pc=DCTS&cvid=4c205c570a634c609315e959e2a10c4b&ei=9

why "progressives" should heed Obama [the great] speech.

Azizi - there is only one side that is not listening

and it ain't the Jews.


Crafty_Dog

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ccp

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typical Democrats - they never quit
« Reply #2753 on: November 08, 2023, 07:19:57 AM »
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/blinken-rallies-britain-canada-france-germany-japan-and-italy-to-condemn-hamas-urge-hostage-release/ar-AA1jAiBn?ocid=msedgntp&pc=DCTS&cvid=ed3135a54d084f4999b0f22eaca0655a&ei=10

Ok so he got some Western allies to condemn Hamas - but then he has to increase pressure on BIBI to pause for "humanitarian aid", thus pursuing a strategy that has been a loser for decades and makes things worse in the long run.

All while money flows to Iran. 

You want peace (like we do) we will give you peace

You want war we will give your war


we will give you appeasement.




Crafty_Dog

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GPF: Egypt and Gaza
« Reply #2754 on: November 09, 2023, 06:07:51 AM »

November 9, 2023
View On Website
Open as PDF
Egypt’s Singular Role in Gaza
For Cairo, there are risks and opportunities involved in managing whatever comes next.
By: Kamran Bokhari

As the international community struggles to figure out what to do with Gaza after the war, Egypt is poised to play its biggest role there in more than 50 years. Whether it likes it or not, it is the focal point of efforts that involve the United States, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Qatar and Turkey, a responsibility that will present as many opportunities as risks.

Egypt and Neighboring Countries
(click to enlarge)

On Nov. 8, U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken said the Gaza Strip cannot continue to be run by Hamas, but that neither could it be reoccupied by Israel beyond a transition period after the end of the military offensive. He also mentioned that U.S.-led international efforts are meant to ensure that there is no displacement of the Palestinian population and to reinstate the “unity of governance” between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

This is a difficult road map to follow. The key challenge will be to minimize the length of Israel’s occupation and administration of Gaza. Already there is mounting international and domestic pressure on the Biden administration to broker a cease-fire. That so many Palestinians have been killed – more than 10,000 as of Nov. 7 – has shifted the narrative on the war from condemnation of Hamas to criticism of the Israeli counteroffensive. Implicit in this pressure is the debate over the broader occupation of the Palestinian Territories, the rise of Hamas and the immorality of terrorism.

Under these circumstances, it is in neither America’s nor Israel’s interest to see Gaza reoccupied. After all, Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005, when the territory was still under the control of the Palestinian Authority, and when Israel Defense Forces had largely stopped Hamas’ suicide bombing campaigns. However, Hamas’ legislative victory the following year created a situation in which Hamas would rule Gaza while its rival, Fatah, would govern the West Bank. Toppling the Hamas government in Gaza would upend this 16-year arrangement, which allowed Egypt to step back from the conflict – other than to manage the flow of goods and people in and out of the Gaza Strip.

Gaza Strip Evacuation Zone, November 2023
(click to enlarge)

Egypt’s position on Gaza is defined by two different periods. The first began with the war in 1948, when Egypt, Syria and Jordan sought to seize control of what used to be British-ruled Palestine, large parts of which had become the state of Israel that same year. The Arabs lost the war, of course, but Egypt gained control of the Gaza Strip. After the 1952 coup – which essentially established the military-dominated regime that rules Egypt to this day – Cairo continued to advance an agenda of defeating Israel and liberating Palestine (if not necessarily as an independent state).

This would lead Egypt, Syria and Jordan to fight and lose the 1967 war, in which Cairo lost control of Gaza as well as the Sinai Peninsula – a much larger and more strategic piece of land. Thus, the final war between Egypt and Israel in 1973 was no longer about Palestine so much as it was about retrieving the Sinai, which the Egyptians eventually reclaimed per the 1978 peace treaty with Israel. In other words, a new normal was established in which Cairo no longer considered Palestine a strategic issue. And when, a decade or so later in this second era, the Palestine Liberation Organization decided to give up armed struggle to pursue its cause diplomatically, the Palestinian issue became, from Cairo’s point of view, an Israeli concern.

The Middle East Before and After the Six-Day War
(click to enlarge)

Even so, the rise of Hamas was a major problem for Cairo because Hamas is an armed offshoot of the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt’s largest opposition movement. Yet Egypt took comfort in the fact that between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, Hamas would be contained. It wasn’t, and the group’s takeover of Gaza forced Cairo to take a more active role in managing the territory. The new Egyptian strategy was two-fold: coordinate with Israel on a blockade of Gaza and establish a working relationship with Hamas so that Cairo can serve as a mediator with Israel – which it did during the wars in 2008, 2012, 2014 and 2021.

This arrangement was tested in the wake of the Arab Spring uprising, when the Muslim Brotherhood briefly came to power in 2012. Though the group took a pragmatic approach to Gaza, the Egyptian establishment wasn’t taking any chances; it was too concerned about the prospect of a Muslim Brotherhood government in Cairo, Islamist militancy in the Sinai and a Hamas-led regime in Gaza. To the establishment, this was a threat not just to Egypt’s stability but to the peace treaty with Israel. Thus came the coup in 2013 that removed the Muslim Brotherhood from power and installed military chief Abdel Fattah el-Sissi as the country’s president.

While suppressing the Muslim Brotherhood at home, the new government continued its limited, pragmatic engagement with Hamas as a way to insulate itself from the brand of Islamism gaining ground next door. Meanwhile, el-Sissi had other major issues to deal with, including a floundering economy kept afloat by billions of dollars of assistance from the Gulf Arab states.

Regime stability was a stated priority of el-Sissi’s when he confirmed he would seek a third term – an announcement he made just four days before the Oct. 7 attacks radically altered Egypt’s strategic environment. Cairo will now have to do much of the heavy lifting. It’s unclear how the government will deal with the messy process of regime change in Gaza while maintaining regime stability at home, especially since the Egyptian public is highly sensitive to the suffering of the Palestinians in Gaza. It is so sensitive, in fact, that the government made the unusual move of allowing pro-Palestinian demonstrations to take place in Cairo on Oct. 20, during which protesters criticized Egypt’s handling of the economy.

However, Hamas’ dismantlement by Israel isn’t without opportunities for Cairo. Egypt is eager to weaken the Islamist movement, as are its benefactors in the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia, which oppose Islamism on its merits but also want to deny Iran the ability to exploit the Gaza issue. Riyadh and Abu Dhabi are therefore likely willing to invest in the efforts to re-establish a post-Hamas order in Gaza. No other country than Egypt would benefit as much from the arrangement. (This is especially important as Saudi Arabia recently said it would stop giving out money to countries such as Egypt with no strings attached.)

But it’s still a tall order. Once the dust settles, Hamas will be weakened but probably not eliminated. The Palestinian Authority in the West Bank will have to restore its writ over Gaza, but the group is famously corrupt and approaching a chaotic transition. Israel can bring down the Hamas regime in Gaza, but Egypt will have to take the lead in establishing a new order there, and fast in order to avoid the pandemonium of an Israeli reoccupation becoming longer than intended.


ccp

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Work parsing from the NYT
« Reply #2756 on: November 10, 2023, 08:09:02 AM »
more left wing academics trying to shyster the meaning of "from the river to the sea" as though it is not obvious what it means



https://www.yahoo.com/news/congress-campuses-river-sea-inflames-125955943.html

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Israel, and its neighbors
« Reply #2757 on: November 10, 2023, 03:03:59 PM »
From the river to the sea, Israel will be Jew free.

ccp

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Gal Gadot screening of Hamas atrocities
« Reply #2758 on: November 10, 2023, 03:31:01 PM »
can anyone find the video anywhere
I would like to see it but cannot find it

it appears we are not allowed to see it due to the elites who have decided it is too graphic for us
and may offend Palestinians or other Democrats

 :x

« Last Edit: November 10, 2023, 03:38:17 PM by ccp »

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Israel, and its neighbors
« Reply #2759 on: November 10, 2023, 03:39:06 PM »
PLEASE!

Body-by-Guinness

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Reporting for CBS, this is Captain Obvious
« Reply #2760 on: November 10, 2023, 06:21:01 PM »


SWBrowne

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Why I support Israel
« Reply #2762 on: November 13, 2023, 07:36:49 AM »
Why I support Israel
By Steve Browne
(Weekly column)

“I have a premonition that will not leave me: as it goes with Israel so will it go with all of us. Should Israel perish, the holocaust will be upon us.”
-   Eric Hoffer

First of all, no I’m not Jewish. I suppose however that I’m a Zionist though I say that with some surprise as it never occurred to me to call myself such before now.

By Zionist I mean I support the right of Israel to exist, to have secure borders, to have the right to control immigration, to defend itself by all means recognized for any other state, and to retaliate against aggression by all means recognized for any other state.

Why? No seriously why? What business is it of mine?

Well for one, consider the alternative. The atrocities of Hamas are well known in sickening detail and cannot be denied because Hamas is documenting and boasting about them.

Still they are being denied, even justified by some of the vilest people one can imagine. That should be enough in and of itself.

Israel by contrast still attempts to minimize civilian casualties among a population that hates them. And one wonders why. They’re not going to affect public opinion that way.

It appears to have something to do with Jewish ethics. And here we come to an important reason.

Israel is part of Western Civilization, is in fact historically one of the twin roots of the West. The other being ancient Athens, with the emphasis on ancient.

Us anthropologists like to classify human organization in ascending levels according to how many people they can support: bands, tribes, chiefdoms, and states.

We tend to forget there’s a level above states – civilizations. A civilization is a group of nations with recognized commonalities of culture, law, etc. The definition gets vague around the edges but can often be practically defined as speakers of related language families.

Isolationists do not see a level above their country. A luxury only maintainable in big powerful states such as ours.

When we play the parlor game of “When did Western Civ begin?” it’s fun to argue, was it when the democratic party of Athens swore not to take revenge on the out of power oligarchs even for the murder of their families? Was it when the Romans put the Twelve Tablet of the law in the public forum for all to read?

Or was it when the Prophet Nathan told King David, “Thou art the man!”

One moral law for king and peasant alike, what a concept! One that is not shared by every culture, even today.

I believe Western Civ has evolved some basic assumptions that are worth keeping and worth spreading for the benefit of all mankind. Such as the rights of Man, equality under the law, the dignity and worth of the individual.

Our civilization is under attack, from without and within by an axis of enemies united for the sole purpose of opposing the West. Israel is one front in a multi-front attack on the West. I believe Ukraine is another, and I greatly fear the opening of another front, perhaps in Taiwan – or here.

But perhaps that’s a bit tin-foil hat conspiratorial for some of my readers. So here are some practical questions I like to ask.

Who is more likely to develop…?

-   A cure for cancer?
-   Significant life extension?
-   Clean cheap sources of energy?
-   Cheap practical desalination tech? (Oops, cross that one off. Already done.)

Seven million Israelis or 700 million Arab Islamists?

And that’s why I support Israel, for my own self-interest.


« Last Edit: November 13, 2023, 01:51:04 PM by Crafty_Dog »
"As weird as it's gotten, it still hasn't gotten weird enough for me."

ccp

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Re: Israel, and its neighbors
« Reply #2763 on: November 13, 2023, 08:06:39 AM »
Appreciate your thoughts on the matter and since I am Jewish your support of Israel's right to exist.

Israel really is the "canary in the coal mine" so to speak.

Do you have any thoughts about taking on Iran at this time?

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Israel, and its neighbors
« Reply #2764 on: November 13, 2023, 01:52:32 PM »
Outstanding post Stephen!

I would also add that Israel took out the nuke programs of Iraq and Syria.

G M

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USS Liberty
« Reply #2765 on: November 13, 2023, 02:11:43 PM »
Outstanding post Stephen!

I would also add that Israel took out the nuke programs of Iraq and Syria.

Did they do that to protect America?

Why did they take out the USS Liberty?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JITBsNMcN8A

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Israel, and its neighbors
« Reply #2766 on: November 13, 2023, 02:41:10 PM »
1) "Did they do that to protect America?"

No-- and that is a rather potent point; their self interest and ours are in fundamental harmony.


2)  This material has been hashed for decades now and has become a cesspool.  There is nothing fresh to add and to go into now would be a waste of our time.  MOVE ON.   

"Why did they take out the USS Liberty?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JITBsNMcN8A
« Last Edit: November 13, 2023, 03:02:50 PM by Crafty_Dog »


G M

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Is this what allies do?
« Reply #2768 on: November 13, 2023, 03:38:14 PM »

1) "Did they do that to protect America?"

No-- and that is a rather potent point; their self interest and ours are in fundamental harmony.

https://www.military.com/defensetech/2013/12/24/report-israel-passes-u-s-military-technology-to-china

Report: Israel Passes U.S. Military Technology to China

24 Dec 2013

Secret U.S. missile and electro-optics technology was transferred to China recently by Israel, prompting anger from the U.S. and causing a senior Israeli defense official to resign.

The head of defense exports for the Israeli Defense Ministry resigned after a U.S. investigation concluded that technology, including a miniature refrigeration system manufactured by Ricor and used for missiles and in electro-optic equipment, was sent to China, according to the Israeli newspaper Maariv.

Another Israeli news site, Aretz Sheva, reports the U.S. is concerned the technology could ultimately find its way to Iran, which last year sought to buy military equipment from China for its nuclear program.

Ricor, on its company website, identifies a number of defense programs using its miniature cryo-coolers, including UAVs, airborne enhanced vision systems, missile warning systems, hand-held thermal imagers and thermal weapons sights.

The Maariv report identified the Israeli defense official as Meir Shalit, and said he apologized to U.S. officials on a recent visit.

Israel has a long record of getting U.S. military technology to China.

In the early 1990s then-CIA Director James Woolsey told a Senate Government Affairs Committee that Israel had been selling U.S. secrets to China for about a decade. More than 12 years ago the U.S. demanded Israel cancel a contract to supply China with Python III missiles, which included technology developed by the U.S. for its Sidewinder missiles, The Associated Press reported in 2002.

https://theintercept.com/2015/03/25/netanyahus-spying-denial-directly-contradicted-secret-nsa-documents/



Seems kind of disharmonious.

« Last Edit: November 13, 2023, 03:40:22 PM by G M »

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Israel, and its neighbors
« Reply #2769 on: November 13, 2023, 03:59:33 PM »
My point remains: 

Israel doesn't want the Muslim Middle East going nuclear nor do we.

With proper citations you raise a distinct point though-- just how transactional is Israel willing to be?  Answer-- plenty.  Given how fickle an ally America can be:

*witness Obama giving $140B to the Iranians, and green light to build missiles and go nuclear in approx 12 years, then leak the existence of an Israeli landing rights deal with Azerbaijan that would have enabled Israel to hit Iran by air and return and by so doing blow the deal out of the water.

*Witness plethora of ways in which Biden continues Obama's appeasement

* etc etc etc.

There is understandable logic to this for a tiny country surrounded by bat shit religious loons in a collective militant frenzy of genocidal
passions.

What remains though is

*Israel is THE bastion of western civilization in the Middle East-- and it is the linch pin of SA and other Arab states aligning against Iran.  Without Israel we will be driven out of the ME 100%.  Death to Little Satan?  Then who?  Oh yeah, Death to the Big Satan!

https://www.thefp.com/p/you-are-the-last-line-of-defense?fbclid=IwAR0tIZHRfA5O1gXl0VhENTV6TSQkzOF7pkvJViF4sC8RyigzIJtkZDuPaAo

*Israel can fight really well-- and they have quite a few nukes and the means to deliver them 

*Israel has outstanding intel capabilities

*they and we don't want the Arabs or the Iranians going nuke
« Last Edit: November 13, 2023, 04:08:16 PM by Crafty_Dog »

G M

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Re: Israel, and its neighbors
« Reply #2770 on: November 13, 2023, 04:34:28 PM »
With proper citations you raise a distinct point though-- just how transactional is Israel willing to be?  Answer-- plenty.  Given how fickle an ally America can be:

No doubt the USG have long proven it's a weak enemy and treacherous friend, especially when dems are in charge. But Israel was running it's own agenda contrary to ours long before the majority of American Jews voted to elect and re-elect Obama.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-voting-record-in-u-s-presidential-elections

So perhaps you could explain the cognitive dissonance that Jewish Obama voters have about avoiding a nuclear Iran and calling Trump and his supporters antisemites while Trump was very pro-Israel and the vast majority of Trump voters do see Israel as an ally.

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Israel, and its neighbors
« Reply #2771 on: November 13, 2023, 05:54:27 PM »
Your , , , filter leads you astray.   

We are talking about Israel, not American Jews.


G M

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Re: Israel, and its neighbors
« Reply #2772 on: November 13, 2023, 06:06:53 PM »
Your , , , filter leads you astray.   

We are talking about Israel, not American Jews.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/countries-that-receive-the-most-foreign-aid-from-the-u-s

Ok, what do we get in return from Israel aside from the constant espionage, including industrial espionage and Epstein honeypot blackmail ops for the billions we send every year?

Actual numbers for a cost/benefit analysis would be nice.

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Israel, and its neighbors
« Reply #2773 on: November 13, 2023, 06:45:19 PM »
What remains though is

*Israel is THE bastion of western civilization in the Middle East-- and it is the linch pin of SA and other Arab states aligning against Iran.  Without Israel we will be driven out of the ME 100%.  Death to Little Satan?  Then who?  Oh yeah, Death to the Big Satan!

https://www.thefp.com/p/you-are-the-last-line-of-defense?fbclid=IwAR0tIZHRfA5O1gXl0VhENTV6TSQkzOF7pkvJViF4sC8RyigzIJtkZDuPaAo

*Israel can fight really well-- https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12745313/Israeli-troops-pose-guns-Gazas-parliament-building.html and they have quite a few nukes and the means to deliver them

*Israel has outstanding intel capabilities

*they and we don't want the Arabs or the Iranians going nuke

*a role model for the middle east

*some seriously bitchin technology

AND proof that Walls work!
« Last Edit: November 13, 2023, 06:50:48 PM by Crafty_Dog »

G M

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Re: Israel, and its neighbors
« Reply #2774 on: November 13, 2023, 07:20:44 PM »
"Israel is THE bastion of western civilization in the Middle East-- and it is the linch pin of SA and other Arab states aligning against Iran.  Without Israel we will be driven out of the ME 100%.  Death to Little Satan?  Then who?  Oh yeah, Death to the Big Satan!"

What Israel has become, if it wasn't from it's start is an example of the rot infesting western civilization.

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/israel-is-the-gayest-country-on-earth/

https://www.advocate.com/world/2015/08/31/study-one-third-israelis-are-bisexual

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/israel-safe-haven-paedophiles-jerusalem-sex-abuse-jewish-community-watch-a7445246.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/jerusalem-ap-christian-palestinian-last-supper-b2256029.html

https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2023/0414/Israel-failing-to-stop-attacks-on-Christians-Jerusalem-churches-say

Let's see, Israel selling weapons to Shiite Muslims so those Muslims can use those weapons to slaughter Christians. What wonderful allies!

https://apnews.com/article/armenia-azerbaijan-nagorno-karabakh-weapons-israel-6814437bcd744acc1c4df0409a74406c

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/editorial/2023-09-27/ty-article-opinion/israels-fingerprints-are-all-over-the-ethnic-cleansing-in-nagorno-karabakh/0000018a-d331-d13d-a98f-dbb5028e0000

Some genocides are more equal than others!




G M

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DougMacG

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Re: Israel, and its neighbors
« Reply #2777 on: November 14, 2023, 07:15:31 AM »
Yes, our self interests aligned defines ally.

USS Liberty?  Open with an incident that goes back to President Johnson and involves mistake, apology and restitution.  I don't recall Pearl Harbor or 9/11 described as a mistake or followed with apology or offer of restitution.

Who makes mistakes in war?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_bombing_of_the_Chinese_embassy_in_Belgrade
Who started the 1967 war, wasn't it the enemies of Israel? 

Weird that the enemies of Israel chant "Death to America".  But people doubt the connection?

ADL is screwed up and not acting in the best interests of their stated cause.  That's not exactly news.  UN is screwed up too and they aren't Jewish or Israel supporters.

My complaint with Liberal American Jews is with how they vote, not with their religion.  We don't criticize blacks voting Democrat for being black, we want to change the way they vote.

Mayorkas is Jewish.  I didn't know that.  What the hell does that have to do with not defending the border?  Biden isn't Jewish and he has more control over it than Mayorkas.  Obama hates Israel and he doesn't want our southern border guarded.

Epstein wasn't guilty of being an American Jew, he was guilty of abusing girls and running a sex ring.  Not for Jews, for people of money and power and no morals.  Bill Clinton, Bill Gates, Prince Andrew, not Jewish far as I know. Nothing I know of in Judaism promotes sex trafficking.  Just the opposite.

"White Christian nations"?  Where I come from they referred to Judeo-Christian values, meaning (to me) shared values not specific to one religion or denomination, (or even to 'believers.').  My reading of the Bible (in church) started with the first five books of the "Old Testament".

Good grief this conversation digressed fast.

Israel isn't a perfect ally?  Who is?  Ask India whose cooperation we need right now, how consistent an ally has the US been over the years?
« Last Edit: November 14, 2023, 07:49:27 AM by DougMacG »

G M

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Re: Israel, and its neighbors
« Reply #2778 on: November 14, 2023, 07:36:52 AM »

"USS Liberty?  Open with an incident that goes back to President Johnson and involves mistake, apology and restitution.  I don't recall Pearl Harbor or 9/11 described as a mistake or followed with apology or offer of restitution."

Was it a mistake? What makes you think it was?

G M

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Re: Israel, and its neighbors
« Reply #2779 on: November 14, 2023, 09:10:42 AM »
"Mayorkas is Jewish.  I didn't know that.  What the hell does that have to do with not defending the border?"

https://hias.org/news/still-fighting-the-muslim-ban-after-two-years/

https://hias.org/statements/hias-congratulates-board-member-alejandro-mayorkas-dhs-nomination/

Open borders for America! But not Israel!

Your vibrant and diverse Somalis in Minnesota? HIAS helped bring them there! Don't you love the cultural enrichment?

DougMacG

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Re: Israel, and its neighbors
« Reply #2780 on: November 14, 2023, 09:39:48 AM »
Somalis in the Twin Cities, spiking in the 1990s, has something to do with Mayorkas being Jewish, and falls under topic of 'Israel bad'.  There is nothing there I want to put another minute of my life into.  - Doug

G M

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Re: Israel, and its neighbors
« Reply #2781 on: November 14, 2023, 10:27:19 AM »
Somalis in the Twin Cities, spiking in the 1990s, has something to do with Mayorkas being Jewish, and falls under topic of 'Israel bad'.  There is nothing there I want to put another minute of my life into.  - Doug

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Israel, and its neighbors
« Reply #2782 on: November 14, 2023, 10:47:52 AM »
Houston, we have a problem here.

GM, at your convenience please give me a call.

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Israel, and its neighbors
« Reply #2783 on: November 14, 2023, 03:59:06 PM »
Gen Keane on Brett Baier tonight:

Hezbollah has the 100-150K raockets/missiles that it has held back.  They cover the entirety of Israel to deadly immediate effect.

If/when Hamas is about to go under (coming soon?) Iran tells Hezbollah to pull the trigger and launch the rockets/missiles.

Israel's nuclear decision is presented , , ,   

Crafty_Dog

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An Israeli friend writes
« Reply #2785 on: November 15, 2023, 05:30:46 AM »
Several years ago, and again just a week or so ago Israel unzipped it's fly and told Hezbollah where they were storing their rockets and missiles. We know what they have and where it's at. Israel said as recently as yesterday that they are only using about 30% of its air power on Hamas. That means that Israel is aware of what is going on in Lebanon, and while we do not want to fight a two front war we can do so. If Iran actually orders an attack, Hezbollah will feel the wrath of G-d come down on their heads.

After the last Israel/Lebanon war their leadership complained that had they known how Israel would act they wouldn't have pulled the tigers tail. Israel is a small nation that fights above its weight. And while Iran, it's proxies, and even some of our Arab neighbors believe that we are weak it simply isn't so. beyond conventional warfare we have first, second, and third strike abilities to take out our enemies assets and leadership. What stops us is the US, who fear the political fall out should Israel actually be allowed to finish a war. I remember back in 73 Kissinger telling Israel to let Egypts third army survive. That a complete defeat of Egypt would be an affront to Egypts manhood. While I would care whether or not Egyptian men feel manly I have no clue. But, the truth is that the US, NATO, and the EU babysitting the Arabs from war to war has only cost the Arabs and Israel lives.

I have complained often in the past 20 years over the fact that our friend the US, has always kept Israel on a short chain. And no administration has been any worse than the current one. Biden started out like he had a pair, until the left of the DNC reminded him that Arab voters in the US are angry over his comments.

I appreciate what the US is and has done to help Israel, but as long as we are not allowed to finish a war we are then doomed to repeat it. And as long as domestic politics stays the hand of Israel from destroying our enemies we will be doomed in a few years to fight this war again. What we are seeing is nothing more than a political Ground Hog Day.

Body-by-Guinness

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Re: An Israeli friend writes
« Reply #2786 on: November 15, 2023, 07:07:30 AM »
Several years ago, and again just a week or so ago Israel unzipped it's fly and told Hezbollah where they were storing their rockets and missiles. We know what they have and where it's at. Israel said as recently as yesterday that they are only using about 30% of its air power on Hamas. That means that Israel is aware of what is going on in Lebanon, and while we do not want to fight a two front war we can do so. If Iran actually orders an attack, Hezbollah will feel the wrath of G-d come down on their heads.

After the last Israel/Lebanon war their leadership complained that had they known how Israel would act they wouldn't have pulled the tigers tail. Israel is a small nation that fights above its weight. And while Iran, it's proxies, and even some of our Arab neighbors believe that we are weak it simply isn't so. beyond conventional warfare we have first, second, and third strike abilities to take out our enemies assets and leadership. What stops us is the US, who fear the political fall out should Israel actually be allowed to finish a war. I remember back in 73 Kissinger telling Israel to let Egypts third army survive. That a complete defeat of Egypt would be an affront to Egypts manhood. While I would care whether or not Egyptian men feel manly I have no clue. But, the truth is that the US, NATO, and the EU babysitting the Arabs from war to war has only cost the Arabs and Israel lives.

I have complained often in the past 20 years over the fact that our friend the US, has always kept Israel on a short chain. And no administration has been any worse than the current one. Biden started out like he had a pair, until the left of the DNC reminded him that Arab voters in the US are angry over his comments.

I appreciate what the US is and has done to help Israel, but as long as we are not allowed to finish a war we are then doomed to repeat it. And as long as domestic politics stays the hand of Israel from destroying our enemies we will be doomed in a few years to fight this war again. What we are seeing is nothing more than a political Ground Hog Day.

Very apt and well said!

Crafty_Dog

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GPF: Gaza War threatens Jordan
« Reply #2787 on: November 16, 2023, 05:49:22 AM »
November 16, 2023
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The Gaza War Threatens Jordan
Fighting in the West Bank would be much harder to contain.
By: Kamran Bokhari
Unlike previous wars in Gaza, the current conflict has the potential to expand to the West Bank, where clashes involving Palestinians, Jewish settlers and Israeli security forces are on the rise. While the Israel Defense Forces are in the process of dismantling the Hamas regime in Gaza, the internationally recognized Palestinian Authority in the West Bank has continued to break down. Should it lose control, Israel would face unprecedented chaos in both Palestinian territories, and it would not take long for unrest in the West Bank to spill over into neighboring and chronically fragile Jordan. Such a turn of events would provide an opening for Iran to expand its influence into the Hashemite monarchy from Syria and Iraq.

West Bank on Edge

On Nov. 14, Israeli forces killed at least eight Palestinians in the West Bank during a raid and clashes with suspected militants in the town of Tulkarem. The incident came after Hamas’ armed wing claimed responsibility for attacks in the northern West Bank city of Nablus. As many as 170 Palestinians have died in clashes with Israelis across the West Bank since Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack in Gaza. Meanwhile, Jewish settlers are reportedly seizing more land in the West Bank.

The situation in the West Bank has been deteriorating since well before the Oct. 7 attack. Under the Netanyahu government, which is dominated by extreme far-right political factions, there had been an uptick in Jewish settlement construction as well as moves to annex significant parts of the West Bank. The Palestinian Authority, which since its founding in 1994 has had limited control over the territory, has been weakening – not only because of its inability to do much about the settlers’ encroachments but also due to its own corruption, a geriatric leadership and internal factionalization. Thus far, the Palestinian Authority has managed to contain popular dissatisfaction with its governance, resentment over the Israeli occupation and the growing assertiveness of Israeli settlers. But estimates of the number of Palestinians who have died already total 11,000. Should the rising death toll spark civil unrest in the West Bank, the Palestinian Authority would struggle mightily to restore order, much less to assume control of postwar Gaza as the U.S. hopes.

Moreover, the president of the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, is 88 years old, and various factions in the Fatah-dominated government body have been jockeying for position in anticipation of a leadership transition. These divisions likely extend to the ranks of the Palestinian security services, which are responsible for the West Bank’s Area A, where the Palestinian Authority has full control, and Area B, where it runs the civil administration under Israeli security oversight. The situation is ripe for exploitation by Hamas and other militants in the West Bank. An escalation of clashes between Palestinians and IDF troops and/or Israeli settlers could shatter discipline among the Palestinian security services and result in fighting between Palestinian security personnel and militant groups on one side and IDF troops and armed settlers on the other.

Forced Displacement of Palestinian Communities
(click to enlarge)

Risks for Jordan

In Gaza, the fighting is more easily contained because of the area’s small size and the fact that it can directly spread only to Sinai, where Egypt maintains a robust military presence. By contrast, the West Bank is much larger and more populous. A major Israeli military operation there could drive refugees into neighboring Jordan, where well over half the population has Palestinian origins.

It has happened before. Jordan ruled the West Bank from 1948 until Israel seized control in 1967 in the aftermath of the Six-Day War. Rather than give up the fight, Palestine Liberation Organization guerrillas sought sanctuary in Jordan. Israeli forces pursued them across the border in 1968, opening a rift between Amman and the PLO. Having failed in its struggle against Israel, the PLO sought to consolidate its position in Jordan. By 1970, the PLO had essentially established a state-type presence within the kingdom and began to call for the overthrow of the monarchy. Fearful of losing power, the monarch at the time, King Hussein, opted to fight back. The ensuing conflict culminated in the event known as Black September, when Jordanian forces, with the help of a Pakistani military task force, defeated the PLO and expelled it to Lebanon.

This experience is seared into the psyche of the Jordanian political elite. Jordan’s leaders have long been concerned that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, especially in the West Bank, represents a major threat to the stability of the Hashemite monarchy. In recent years, the collapse of the peace process, the growth of Jewish settlements in the West Bank and the many wars in Gaza have amplified Amman’s fears, despite a 1994 Israel-Jordan peace agreement. This is why Jordan’s King Abdullah II has been more vocal than usual in his criticism of Israel since the Oct. 7 attack.

Jordan’s government is also attuned to the internal pressure on it to do more to alleviate the Palestinian situation. However, as a small, weak state, its options are limited. In the absence of an Israeli-Palestinian resolution, it has long hoped the conflict would at least remain confined to the Gaza Strip. It took comfort in the fact that the West Bank, despite its many problems, was still manageable. The wars in Gaza over the past 15 years did not threaten to destabilize the West Bank and, by extension, Jordan. But Israel’s pursuit of regime change in Gaza credibly threatens to break the fragile order in the West Bank. The last thing the Jordanians want – and a dream scenario for Hamas and Iran – is Gaza-like conditions in the West Bank.

Jordan has long feared Iran’s growing power. Tehran is well positioned on two of Jordan’s borders – in Iraq and Syria – to expand its influence into the West Bank. In 2004, King Abdullah II warned of the rise of a Shiite crescent stretching from the Persian Gulf to the Mediterranean Sea “that would be very destabilizing for the gulf countries and actually for the whole region.” Nearly 20 years later, that crescent is poised to threaten Jordan itself. While the world is bracing for Hezbollah to open a second front on Israel’s northern flank, another front to the east is in the making.

DougMacG

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Re: Israel, and its neighbors
« Reply #2788 on: November 17, 2023, 08:08:09 AM »
Carline Glick:  Strategic Imperative
https://www.jns.org/israels-strategic-imperative/
Hamas is the weaker front of Iran's war on Israel
There is Hezbollah’s arsenal of 150,000 rockets and missiles.
And Iran's stockpile of enriched uranium that can be quickly enriched to bomb-grade levels sufficient to build three nuclear bombs.
If Israel decimates Gaza and annihilates Hamas, then it will deter Hezbollah and other potential foes, including Iran, from attacking.


Victor Hanson:  When has war ever been 'proportional?'
https://jewishworldreview.com/1123/hanson111723.php
Hamas strives for a more disproportionate terrorist agenda to prolong the war. And Israel strives for a more disproportionate retaliation to end it.
(read it all)

ccp

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Re: Israel, and its neighbors
« Reply #2789 on: November 17, 2023, 08:50:52 AM »
when was war ever proportional ?

never really but the online instantaneous media accessed with anyone who has access to device certainly could explain the change.

who can forget this image:

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=GjBOkh6i&id=399BE19F9A6748E9C7841F2E693897960B6951CF&thid=OIP.GjBOkh6i_wz9Q645-b7jeQAAAA&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2Fth.bing.com%2Fth%2Fid%2FR.1a304e921ea2ff0cfd43ae39f9bee379%3Frik%3Dz1FpC5aXOGkuHw%26riu%3Dhttp%253a%252f%252f3.bp.blogspot.com%252f-lyZgFnb3op0%252fToHkViymx8I%252fAAAAAAAAFYI%252fNOjHz9EbbM8%252fs1600%252fVietnam_girl_napalm.jpg%26ehk%3DgBsAdPzrPGHAHJgd%252f77Vc1qHs2HRTAYgeAOlUYt%252flfI%253d%26risl%3D%26pid%3DImgRaw%26r%3D0&exph=288&expw=367&q=famous+image+of+vietnamese+injured+by+us+forces&simid=608001236093455272&form=IRPRST&ck=76DEE4FB4A3B67985927F7D180C31CDA&selectedindex=10&ajaxhist=0&ajaxserp=0&pivotparams=insightsToken%3Dccid_KgpLVZXR*cp_07C4184E183179AC12B4730E94261CC5*mid_4EC0D9881DEDD606A9207C0870A9DF8C03B9B64E*simid_607999419300790643*thid_OIP.KgpLVZXRUA8ZDnqXVfYaPAHaDC&vt=0&sim=11&iss=VSI&ajaxhist=0&ajaxserp=0

1) The power of war in our living rooms.
2) The power of propaganda use of this media the Palestinians have made part of their war strategy.

I think both have partly to blame for what seems like one sided attacks etc on Israel
OTOH there is also no doubt anit Jewish / Israel bias as well.




Crafty_Dog

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Great VDH
« Reply #2790 on: November 17, 2023, 09:31:59 AM »


ccp

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Re: Israel, and its neighbors
« Reply #2792 on: November 18, 2023, 10:58:29 AM »
"Meanwhile, U.S. knows the dangers of this as it has no where near the current capability to fight a protracted conflict against Iran"

what?

we couldn't smash their military operations and take out their energy infrastructure

I don't believe that

if true we are in a world of hurt





ccp

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Re: Israel, and its neighbors
« Reply #2797 on: November 21, 2023, 05:46:39 AM »
"Israeli Defense Minister: Hamas Leaders in Exile Are Dead Men Walking"

I would love a sequel to Munich !   :-D

Crafty_Dog

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GPF: Gaza and the making of a new ME order
« Reply #2798 on: November 22, 2023, 04:16:07 AM »

November 22, 2023
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Gaza and the Making of a New Middle East Order
As the fighting continues, Israel is formulating its vision for a postwar Gaza Strip.
By: Hilal Khashan
The ferocity of the ongoing war between Israel and Hamas will reshape the Middle East. Its brutality is reminiscent of World War II's final battles, which transformed Germany and Japan from belligerent states into democratic countries championing worldwide peace. It is unlikely that democracy can prevail throughout the Middle East, but it is highly possible that the region’s regimes and populations will in the future eschew conflict and focus instead on internal economic issues.

The war in Gaza will reconfigure the Palestinian question and lay to rest the anti-Israel role of political Islamic movements like Hamas and Hezbollah. It will also usher in Israel’s annexation of the West Bank. Last week, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said his government would work to transform the West Bank into an integral part of Israel and announced a committee to impose full Israeli sovereignty over it. Netanyahu did not hide his intention to keep Gaza when the war with Hamas ended. In response to U.S. President Joe Biden’s comments that Gaza should eventually be part of the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, he said the Israeli army did not enter Gaza to hand it over to the PA. Meanwhile, the reactions of other regional governments to the war haven’t gone beyond demanding aid and humanitarian relief. These conditions indicate that Israel could try to revive a decades-old proposal to push the Palestinian population of Gaza into northern Sinai.

Gaza-Israel in the Middle East
(click to enlarge)

Reoccurring Plan

Prior to the establishment of the state of Israel, the Gaza Strip had a population of 80,000 and an area of just 140 square miles. Following Israel’s founding, however, some 160,000 refugees fled into the strip. After signing the armistice agreement with Israel in 1949, Egypt administered Gaza, but its growing population – which today exceeds 2.2 million – and frequent intrusions into Israel by refugees trying to recover possessions from their villages created a security threat for the nascent Jewish state. The U.S. played a critical role in resettling Palestinian refugees through U.N. Resolution 194, adopted by the General Assembly in December 1948. The resolution gave the refugees a right to return to their homes, though the establishment of the United Nations Relief and Work Agency aimed at integrating them into the societies of the Arab countries bordering the Palestinian territories.

The idea of resettling Palestinians in Sinai has resurfaced repeatedly ever since. In 1950, Egypt’s King Farouk rejected a U.S. offer to buy the Sinai Peninsula to settle Palestinian refugees displaced from their homes after the 1948 war. President Gamal Abdel Nasser considered resettling about 60,000 Gazans in northern Sinai. His administration cooperated with the UNRWA from 1953 to 1955 to implement the project, but it was thwarted by Palestinians in Gaza in an uprising called the March Intifada. Nasser subsequently abandoned the plan after an Israeli raid on Gaza in which dozens of Egyptian soldiers were killed, forcing him to turn to the Soviet Union for weapons.

With its dense population, Gaza has been a constant source of concern for Israel since its occupation at the beginning of the Six-Day War in 1967. At the time, the British ambassador to Israel indicated that the Israelis believed that any permanent solution to the Gaza issue must include the transfer of part of the population outside the limits of the 1949 armistice agreements. He stressed that the new Israeli policy included settling Palestinians in northern Sinai and that the Israeli government was not concerned about international criticism its strategy would receive because its priority was finding a lasting solution to the problem. Thus, an influential plan developed by Israeli lawmaker Yigal Allon proposed relocating Palestinians to Sinai following its seizure by Israel after the 1967 war.

Israel’s security problems in Gaza continued into the 1970s, with repeated operations launched against its forces. The Israeli government decided to forcibly displace thousands of Palestinians to the city of el-Arish on the northern coast of the Sinai Peninsula. Israeli Defense and Foreign Minister Shimon Peres said it was time for the government to refocus its attention on the situation in Gaza rather than the West Bank. Its first step was to reduce by about a third the population of Gaza, which had reached 350,000 by 1967. In 2000, Israeli Gen. Giora Eiland, the head of the planning department in the Israeli army and director of the National Security Council, proposed to house Gazans in northern Sinai. The plan included construction of an airport, a port and a city that could accommodate 1 million people.

In 2010, former Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak said he had rejected an offer by Netanyahu to cede part of Israeli territory in the Negev Desert in exchange for resettling Palestinians from Gaza in northern Sinai. In 2013, geography professor Joshua Ben-Arieh proposed a plan to expand the Gaza Strip to the outskirts of the Egyptian town of el-Arish into Rafah and Sheikh Zuweid. There are also indications that former Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi reached an agreement with Hamas to allow Palestinians to move into northern Sinai. The Sinai Development Project would have allowed Arab nationals to own property in Egypt, but it collapsed after Morsi’s overthrow in 2013.

In 2018, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas revealed that he had rejected an offer from Morsi to obtain a piece of Sinai to settle Palestinians there, with the knowledge and approval of Hamas. According to Israeli leaks, Egypt, Israel and Jordan held a secret summit, also attended by U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, in February 2016 in the Jordanian city of Aqaba. Israeli sources claimed that Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sissi made an offer to settle Palestinians in Sinai between Rafah and el-Arish. Although Netanyahu denied that Egypt had made such a proposal, he acknowledged that the conference took place, while the Egyptians avoided discussing it altogether.

During the current war, the idea of resettling Gazans in northern Sinai has again resurfaced. After Netanyahu warned residents to leave the strip ahead of a heavy bombardment, the Palestinian ambassador to France asked where they should go. The chief spokesman for the Israeli army said the Rafah crossing was still open and advised anyone who could leave to do so. Israeli writer Eddie Cohen proposed settling Palestinians in Sinai in exchange for eliminating Egypt’s foreign debts. He believed Egypt would not reject the idea due to its serious economic challenges and the likelihood that the U.S. would give its tacit approval. Besides, he pointed out that even European countries were unable to stop thousands of Syrian refugees from crossing their borders, and the Egyptians will likely experience the same fate with Palestinian refugees.

Cairo has publicly rejected any proposals to resettle Gazans in Sinai – though pro-government media have claimed (falsely) that Egypt has always welcomed Palestinians as visitors. Egypt’s rejection of the idea raises the ceiling for negotiations to obtain greater financial returns from Western countries.

A number of factors could indicate whether Egypt will maintain this position in the future. Chief among them are the distinguished relationship and unprecedented cooperation between Israel and Egypt during the el-Sissi era and his pivotal role in the aftermath of the Hamas attack. Other key factors include Egypt’s fragile political situation, its escalating economic crisis, and the government’s dire need for U.S. and Western support on these and other issues.

Some political observers claim, based on two plans proposed by sources close to Netanyahu, that Israel intends to deport the residents of Gaza. The first plan originated in the Misgav Institute, led by Meir Ben-Shabbat, who worked as Netanyahu’s secretary and envoy on special missions. The second allegedly came up in the Israeli Ministry of Intelligence. While the first plan suggested transferring Gazans to Egyptian cities, the second preferred that they remain in Sinai, with the option of absorbing some into Western countries. However, both plans call for pushing residents initially to the southern sector of the strip until the terrible living conditions there force them to flee to northern Sinai. Egypt, then, could not avoid opening the Rafah crossing and accepting them into the country.

Regional Consensus

Prior to the Oct. 7 attack, Arab countries backed the international consensus on eliminating Hamas and creating a Palestinian state in Gaza and northern Sinai. However, Hamas’ attack facilitated the decision to wage all-out war against it. Western countries, Israel and most Arab states have reached the conclusion that fully normalizing diplomatic and commercial relations will be very difficult with the presence of movements that are supported by Iran and call themselves the "axis of resistance." However, even Iran is now dissociating itself from Hamas. In his recent meeting with Hamas Politburo head Ismail Haniyeh, Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said the Palestinians should stop demanding that Iran intervene in the war because it is not in Iran’s best interest to do so. Former Iranian Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif came under attack by Revolutionary Guard-controlled media after he said the Iranian people reject the regime’s policies on the Palestinian issue. Some newspapers loyal to the government believed his honesty repudiated the image of the Islamic Republic as the defender of the axis of resistance.

Another Iranian official said that Tehran made the right decision to avoid participating in the war and that its decision was in the best interest of the Palestinians. Iranian Foreign Minister Hossein Amir-Abdollahian also announced that his country had informed the United States of its unwillingness to expand the conflict. The Iranians hope that the war’s end will initiate a new drive to resolve the lingering dispute over its nuclear program. They also hope that, given their strong presence in Iraq, Syria, Yemen and Lebanon and the weakness of Arab states, they will retain a significant role in the Middle East’s postwar order. They are not oblivious, however, to the fact that military escalation between Israel and Hezbollah, short of total war, would be necessary to transition to an era of non-belligerency with Israel.

 
    
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ccp

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hostage deal : all Biden and advisors !
« Reply #2799 on: November 23, 2023, 12:56:07 PM »
so says the propaganda machine:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/terrible-choices-deep-distrust-path-135113800.html

PS : we are still waiting as Hamas starts in with the last minute tricks

Joe for Nobel Peace Price to share with Blinks Sullivan and maybe the guy who runs Qatar (cutter)