Author Topic: The War on Drugs  (Read 310621 times)

G M

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 26643
    • View Profile

Body-by-Guinness

  • Guest
Better, Not Worse
« Reply #351 on: July 02, 2015, 09:21:58 PM »
Portugal's and other nations' experience when decriminalizing drugs:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/Y7LKfLxVtzE?feature=oembed&wmode=transparent

Crafty_Dog

  • Administrator
  • Power User
  • *****
  • Posts: 71948
    • View Profile

Body-by-Guinness

  • Guest
Embracing Abject Failure
« Reply #353 on: July 21, 2015, 11:55:26 AM »
Same tactics, different substances, outcomes remain the same. An institutionalized embrace of self-righteous folly:

It's Time We Learned from Sin Taxes' Impressive History of Failure

Reason Magazine by J.D. Tuccille 

Samuel Johnson reportedly joked that a second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience. But marriage at least has sex to recommend it. The screwing that politicians give us when they return to the same failed policies time and again are far less enjoyable. But return they do, most recently to sin taxes on cigarettes, booze and, now, junk food and sugary drinks. They promise that these taxes will both discourage disfavored behavior and stuff government coffers with proceeds mugged from ill-living sinners—mutually incompatible goals that such taxes have never fulfilled.

And, in their courting of false hope and spurning of actual experience, politicians ignore the unintended consequences that sin taxes always have delivered.

In budgets adopted last month, Connecticut, Kansas, and Nevada hiked state cigarette taxes amidst flurries of predictions of a new influx of cash nabbed from the nicotine-stained fingertips of smokers. Nutmeg State advocates predicted that a $1.50 hike in Connecticut "would yield more than $60 million annually while driving tens of thousands of state residents away from tobacco." (Connecticut ultimately boosted the take by $0.50 to $3.90 per pack.) Nevada's one dollar rise to $1.80 per pack would "prompt more than 15,400 adult smokers in Nevada to quit, all while raising more than $192 million in new revenue in the first two years," insisted Christopher W. Hansen, President of the American Cancer Society Cancer Action Network. The Kansas City Star editorial board similarly called a cigarette tax hike ($0.50 to $1.29 per pack) "a victory for a healthier Kansas while generating a few more dollars to keep the state out of debtor's prison."

But legislators can only hope to reap cash rewards while punishing smoky pleasures by ignoring history. After Connecticut's recent sin tax victory dance, The Hartford Courant noted that cigarettes sales have dropped for years, not necessarily inspired by the tax rate. "From 2012 through the first few months of 2015, when there haven't been any tax increases, the average monthly consumption rate for the year as a whole has decreased by 7.4 percent from the prior year."

The cigarette tax take has similarly eroded, along with sales. The newspaper concluded that declining smoking rates doomed efforts to turn tobacco into a revenue bonanza. That may be true, but it's also true that cigarette taxes have become so punitive, and so disparate across jurisdictions, that the ranks of remaining smokers—dedicated to their vice and resistant to efforts to make them quit—are acquiring their smokes outside the usual channels, in defiance of efforts to empty their pockets or scrub their lungs.

It's "Prohibition by price," Michael LaFaive tells me. He's an economist with Michigan's Mackinac Center for Public Policy, which, among other things, studies the effects of skyrocketing cigarette taxes. And just as overt efforts to snatch booze from Americans spawned a dynamic and dangerous black market in smuggled liquor, his organization's research reveals that implicitly prohibitionist schemes to make tobacco unaffordable have already done the same.

In New York, where authorities boasted just weeks ago of busting a $3 million smuggling ring, 58 percent of all cigarettes sold in the state are smuggled. With state taxes at $4.35 per pack, and New York City imposing another $1.50 charge, it's a no-brainer to load trucks at Virginia's $0.30 per pack rate and illegally drive them up Interstate 95 to customers suffering the country's most onerous tax.

The recent tax hikes "are going to fuel additional smuggling," LaFaive warns.

Scott Drenkard, an economist with the Tax Foundation, which co-publishes cigarette tax studies with Mackinac agrees.

"I think it's very likely that cigarette tax increases in Kansas will contribute to new smuggling activity there, especially because bordering Missouri has the lowest cigarette excise tax in the country at $0.17 per pack," he says. Fifteen percent of Kansas's smokes are already purchased on the black market; that figure isn't going down.

Both economists expect Connecticut to see similarly increased smuggling, and Drenkard even fingers the likely source: New Hampshire, where cigarettes are taxed at a far cheaper $1.78 per pack.

LaFaive points out that the modern phenomenon of illicit "loosie" sales of single cigarettes are a direct descendant of Prohibition-era sales of single shots of whiskey outside factory gates. Even as we try to reinvent policy, we recreate old mistakes, and their unintended consequences.

Or maybe we just go back to the source and stupidly copy them over again. 

Kansas Governor Sam Brownback (R) originally wanted to hike liquor taxes too, though that plan was shot down. Connecticut doubles down on the stupid by taxing consumers without profiting state coffers—the state sets minimum prices for retailers. These schemes are in keeping with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's Community Preventive Services Task Force which "recommends increasing the unit price of alcohol by raising taxes based on strong evidence of effectiveness for reducing excessive alcohol consumption and related harms."

So… how high is high enough?

The Tax Foundation helpfully reveals that excise taxes range across the country from zilch in Wyoming to $35 per gallon of liquor in Washington. That range of rates is an open invitation to fill the backs of trucks and haul loads of booze across borders, which is exactly what happens.

Mackinac's LaFaive points to the Michigan-Indiana border as a high-traffic area for liquor smugglers. Michigan's state government maintains a wholesale monopoly on spirits, and charges $11.90 per gallon in taxes. Indiana allows a competitive market with taxes at $2.68 per gallon.

The result, as the Michigan Liquor Control Commission complained (PDF) in 2007 is that alcohol smuggling contributed to a "conservative annual estimate of $14 million dollars in loss to the state" in revenues. Indiana and Wisconsin (PDF) were fingered as the major sources of the black market stuff.

But should prohibitionists at least give themselves a pat on the back for sacrificing a little revenue in the name of blessed sobriety?

Really no.

Britain's Institute of Economic Affairs reported in 2012 that high alcohol taxes don't discourage drinking anywhere they looked on the planet. "[T]his research shows that the amount of drink consumed in high tax countries is exactly the same as in low tax countries."

Taxes just fuel black markets, including smuggling and illegal production.

The latest frontier in government efforts to tax us into a future of healthy virtue and budgetary black ink involves levies on sugary drinks and junk food. In April, the Navajo Nation became the first U.S. jurisdiction to impose a specific tax on chips, cakes, and other foods the experts say we're not supposed to eat. The tribal government adopted the measure shortly after Berkeley, California voters subjected themselves (and their unwilling neighbors) to a penny-per-ounce tax on sodas, sports drinks, sweet teas and other sugary beverages.

Learning from past experience, could we be in for the cakes and cokes Mafia?

Actually, maybe not. LaFaive and Drenkard say that these sorts of taxes are even more problematic than those on booze and smokes, since they target tastes rather than specific products. Junk food and sugary drinks have lots of substitutes, and it's impossible to chase them all down.

Chips can be replaced by popcorn that you salt and butter yourself, LaFaive points out.

"The health literature on soda taxes shows that they decrease soda consumption, yes, but people just increase their calorie intake from other sources to make up the difference," notes Drenkard. "A 2010 study showed that adolescents often switch to milk (which actually has more calories), and a 2012 study showed that older consumers switch to beer."

So people want what they want and aren't so easy to bully into preferred behavior—or be forced to pay for the privilege. You don't say. Maybe that's a lesson politicians should have gleaned from the historical evidence long ago.

And maybe we all should have learned by now, despite our hopes to the contrary, that politicians and their control freak friends don't acknowledge their failures.

http://reason.com/archives/2015/07/21/its-time-we-learned-from-sin-taxes-impre

G M

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 26643
    • View Profile
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #354 on: July 21, 2015, 01:05:20 PM »
It means more money for Indian tribes selling tobacco.

DougMacG

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 19316
    • View Profile
Re: Embracing Abject Failure
« Reply #355 on: July 21, 2015, 09:00:54 PM »
Good points BBG, thanks for posting this.  The so-called sin tax is a bad strategy except as Crafty may point out, when I T goes to pay for some direct, external cost.

Funding healthcare with declining cigarette revenues and funding Colorado schools with excessive and easy to bypass pot taxes are bad ideas. Sin tax revenues pose their own moral hazard for policy makers.

Regarding an earlier post, yes, why not decriminalization - first.

On another topic, why not legalize widely available and relatively safe  prescription drugs and also other basic medical supplies and procedures to the public away from the govt sanctioned medical cartel? Does anyone else see that logic.  Like a gun you would have to learn to use things responsibly.  But maybe we don't need a 300 per hour doc and a thousand per hour room to receive a tetanus shot or freeze a skin spot. Just a libertarian thought.

Crafty_Dog

  • Administrator
  • Power User
  • *****
  • Posts: 71948
    • View Profile

G M

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 26643
    • View Profile
Re: Painkiller deaths down
« Reply #357 on: August 14, 2015, 07:16:52 PM »
http://www.newsweek.com/states-medical-marijuana-painkiller-deaths-drop-25-266577

A friend that works for a big city PD in Colorado says that his district in that city has an average of 10 calls a day for medical/psych calls related to marijuana, all of which mean a ride in an ambulance to the ER. 

G M

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 26643
    • View Profile
Re: Painkiller deaths down
« Reply #358 on: August 14, 2015, 07:20:33 PM »
http://www.newsweek.com/states-medical-marijuana-painkiller-deaths-drop-25-266577

A friend that works for a big city PD in Colorado says that his district in that city has an average of 10 calls a day for medical/psych calls related to marijuana, all of which mean a ride in an ambulance to the ER. 

http://www.cpr.org/news/story/denver-emergency-room-doctor-seeing-more-patients-marijuana-edibles

Crafty_Dog

  • Administrator
  • Power User
  • *****
  • Posts: 71948
    • View Profile
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #359 on: August 14, 2015, 07:51:23 PM »
Yes, edibles do present such questions.

Reasonable regulation specifying how to make THC content clear/dosage size, etc. could be helpful here-- just like a list of contents at the supermarket.

Crafty_Dog

  • Administrator
  • Power User
  • *****
  • Posts: 71948
    • View Profile


ppulatie

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 1145
    • View Profile
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #362 on: November 04, 2015, 01:03:32 PM »
Legalization of even MJ is something that I have not been able come to a personal decision on. I can see the viewpoints of both pro and anti groups. And also the Libertarian aspects.
I also see how it can be of benefit for health reasons, but also see it as a gateway drug. And I have seen how in some people, continuous use has "deadened" brain cells and motivation.

Can someone present clear and logical arguments, both pro and con, so that I might be able to better understand this mess?
PPulatie

DougMacG

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 19316
    • View Profile
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #363 on: November 04, 2015, 01:28:47 PM »
Legalization of even MJ is something that I have not been able come to a personal decision on. I can see the viewpoints of both pro and anti groups. And also the Libertarian aspects.
I also see how it can be of benefit for health reasons, but also see it as a gateway drug. And I have seen how in some people, continuous use has "deadened" brain cells and motivation.

Can someone present clear and logical arguments, both pro and con, so that I might be able to better understand this mess?

I agree.  Seems like a small distinction but I favor 'decriminalization' over legalization.  We don't need small time users in jail or with criminal records, but we don't need to sanction it with prime time tv advertising and everything else.

Curious, so I asked about the local tax on it in my other hometown of Leadville CO and the proprietor said the tax was a great thing - funding the new school and all these programs.  Buy it and smoke it for the children, in other words.

Gov. Hickenlooper (D-Colo) says:  Do not follow us.  We don't have this figured out yet.

ppulatie

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 1145
    • View Profile
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #364 on: November 04, 2015, 03:14:43 PM »
Thanks. Your distinction of decriminalization does have some sense to it. But I wonder how long that it would take for advocates to expand upon the decriminalization to other drugs or even selling?

Of course, there is legalize everything in all amounts and let the addicts overdose and die. Wish that would happen to one person down the street. It is so bad that the parents make him sleep outside in all weather and he must go down to the local gas station for restroom use. And...............I don't blame them one bit. Each time he gets out of jail, break ins occur in the neighborhood.
PPulatie

DougMacG

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 19316
    • View Profile
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #365 on: November 04, 2015, 08:33:12 PM »
Once healthcare became a right, legalization of everything fun, harmful or risk taking became in jeopardy, from meth and heroin to stick fighting, to extreme skiing, my vice. 

Crafty_Dog

  • Administrator
  • Power User
  • *****
  • Posts: 71948
    • View Profile
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #366 on: November 04, 2015, 09:52:11 PM »
Exactly the logic that is often used for mandatory seat belts and motorcycle helmets.

DougMacG

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 19316
    • View Profile
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #367 on: November 05, 2015, 11:38:58 AM »
Exactly the logic that is often used for mandatory seat belts and motorcycle helmets.

Yes.  Each idea sounds so good but putting someone else in charge of our own personal safety and choices is to lose our individual liberties in more ways than we can see.
Meanwhile, the government won't do its own job like securing the border.

Body-by-Guinness

  • Guest
Drug Production Falls after Booting the DEA
« Reply #368 on: November 08, 2015, 07:24:01 AM »
Another example where failed policy produced the problem it was putatively created to address, with solutions emerging when the policy was abandoned and prohibition no longer embraced:

http://en.institutomanquehue.org/countries/bolivia/with-no-dea-in-sight,-bolivia-keeps-reducing-coca-crops.html


Crafty_Dog

  • Administrator
  • Power User
  • *****
  • Posts: 71948
    • View Profile


DDF

  • Guest
in:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3404956/Is-proof-El-Chapo-trying-escape-Digging-maximum-security-prison-sparks-fears-Mexican-drug-lord-plotting-jailbreak.html

It puts a whole new spin on it, when your own brothers in uniform are corrupt and will kill you. We just had some more here, that were found to be working for the other side.

Not everyone in Mexico is corrupt.

ccp

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 19587
    • View Profile
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #373 on: January 19, 2016, 10:56:24 AM »
"We just had some more here"

Are in in Mexico?

DDF

  • Guest
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #374 on: January 20, 2016, 01:58:17 PM »
"We just had some more here"

Are in in Mexico?

I am.

Crafty_Dog

  • Administrator
  • Power User
  • *****
  • Posts: 71948
    • View Profile

ccp

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 19587
    • View Profile
Addicts are no longer responsible - they just have the wrong genes
« Reply #376 on: February 10, 2016, 11:58:38 AM »
I don't know we need more Federal money to treat drug addiction. I am tired of the genetic excuses for cause of every drug addict now.  This is a treatment lobby getting lots and lots of money spent on it just like academic lobby.  Has anyone seen the price of health care stocks now compared to several years ago?  Who knows of anyone whose health insurance went down.

I would rather we give capital punishment to drug dealers like in Singapore and stop the Mexicans from flooding out markets with drugs.  With prescription drugs there certainly are doctors who abuse it to make money but I would say it is hard to draw the line when it is reasonable (medically justified) and when it is just for cash.  But we need strict punishments for them too.  In the 90's all we heard was the popular notion that doctors did not treat pain enough so there was this big push to be more liberal with pain meds.  I am not surprised at the outcome. 

 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/10/the-radical-way-the-presidents-spending-plan-would-change-the-drug-war/

Crafty_Dog

  • Administrator
  • Power User
  • *****
  • Posts: 71948
    • View Profile
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #377 on: February 10, 2016, 01:22:47 PM »
"Every solution creates a problem."

Body-by-Guinness

  • Guest
Creating what it Claims to Cure
« Reply #378 on: February 16, 2016, 10:35:42 AM »
Among the many perverse incentives and outcomes the WOD graces us with, none is more profound than its unabashed embrace of creating the exact environment that propagates drug use:

http://theunboundedspirit.com/drugs-dont-cause-addiction-this-short-animated-video-will-change-your-view-on-drugs-forever/

G M

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 26643
    • View Profile
Re: Creating what it Claims to Cure
« Reply #379 on: February 16, 2016, 03:45:04 PM »
Among the many perverse incentives and outcomes the WOD graces us with, none is more profound than its unabashed embrace of creating the exact environment that propagates drug use:

http://theunboundedspirit.com/drugs-dont-cause-addiction-this-short-animated-video-will-change-your-view-on-drugs-forever/

Well, if a cartoon on YouTube says it, it must be true!

In a homicide investigation class I took some years back, we studied a case in my state where formerly middle class parents that got addicted to meth burned their house down with their young children inside so they could get the tiny life insurance policies on the kids. I have seen plenty of firsthand cases where addicts turned away from friends and family to chase their addictions.

ccp

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 19587
    • View Profile
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #380 on: February 17, 2016, 07:18:43 AM »
Over the years I have had many patients coming in asking for narcotics.. Their excuses, their reasons, their scams are quite remarkable.  They know all the tricks, cons and buzz wards.  They use sad stories, try to get us to feel sorry for them,  they compliment us.  When I walk into an exam room  and the new patient comes over to introduce himself smiling from ear to ear and tells me he heard I am the best doctor and he is so glad to meet me immediately I know I am being scammed.  The real problem for us is what to do the patient really does have reasons to be in a lot of pain and nothing other than narcotics either works or does not cause listed side effect.  Yet we cannot be sure there is no abuse.  Unless we hire a private detective one cannot know for sure what is going on.

Addiction is really tough.  The trend now is the usual progressive trend toward love. 
Such as those in jail all just needed good homes.

Such as all those in ISIS just need good jobs.

Such as all addicts just are unlucky to be born with bad genes.

No one is responsible for the choices they make.  Either bad genes or bad environment or both.

This may be true for some and to some extant.  But the people who espouse this stuff all seem to be the ones who make a living off it.

Just my 2 cents.  But I am with GM.  Enough of the phony love and excuses. I for one have less sympathy for many if not most of these drug abusers.

Crafty_Dog

  • Administrator
  • Power User
  • *****
  • Posts: 71948
    • View Profile
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #381 on: February 17, 2016, 08:40:24 AM »
Nonetheless I think the video makes a contribution to the conversation, one that is worthy of keeping in mind.

ccp

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 19587
    • View Profile
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #382 on: February 17, 2016, 09:14:23 AM »
"Nonetheless I think the video makes a contribution to the conversation, one that is worthy of keeping in mind."

Point taken.  I just don't agree with the trend for everything (not just drug abuse) that people do not have responsibility for their actions.  It has a big 'political correctness" influence to it.

The only people who seem to be responsible for their actions and thus are "bad" so to speak, are conservatives or Republicans.  Maybe we just have bad genes or bad upbringings.   :-P



G M

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 26643
    • View Profile
Re: WaPo: Legal pot squeezing narco cartel profits
« Reply #384 on: March 04, 2016, 07:18:42 AM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/03/03/legal-marijuana-is-finally-doing-what-the-drug-war-couldnt/

I know from recent training that the cartels are moving super lab meth to Colorado, and trading it for Colorado weed for distribution to the rest of the country.

DougMacG

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 19316
    • View Profile
Re: WaPo: Legal pot squeezing narco cartel profits
« Reply #385 on: March 04, 2016, 08:16:13 AM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/03/03/legal-marijuana-is-finally-doing-what-the-drug-war-couldnt/

I know from recent training that the cartels are moving super lab meth to Colorado, and trading it for Colorado weed for distribution to the rest of the country.

As Dem Gov John Hickenlooper (my pick for the Dem nominee) says to other states, don't follow our lead, we don't have this figured out yet.

Transporting pot out of Colorado across state lines is still a violation of state and federal law.  Pot sales aren't legal in Colorado; they are just state sanctioned.  If you and I make a private, consensual transaction, it isn't legal.  They can't stop the movement of the drug so now they try to ban money!

Stated previously, we didn't need legalization and state sponsorship (the tax builds schools, do it for the children), we needed decriminalization for private behavior that isn't criminal.

Yes, I wonder what part of the heroin and meth epidemics are a direct result of pot revenues squeezed.  As BBG has argued, people are going to have a curiosity about mind and body altering substances.  Laws come into play when you are harming others.  Drug abuse harms others.

G M

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 26643
    • View Profile
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #386 on: March 04, 2016, 10:59:49 AM »
The wide open border helps very pure meth and heroin move into the US, the lack of immigration enforcement helps the drug distribution networks mature.

DougMacG

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 19316
    • View Profile
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #387 on: March 04, 2016, 11:42:12 AM »
The wide open border helps very pure meth and heroin move into the US, the lack of immigration enforcement helps the drug distribution networks mature.
.

Not to mention that when drug lords control the border, terrorists with money are also welcome.


ccp

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 19587
    • View Profile
Heroin poppy farming up 40 x since US in Afghanistan
« Reply #389 on: March 10, 2016, 07:47:33 AM »
Money laundering from drug trafficking accounts for 6% of banking as much as oil and gas?

Though bank employees are complicit none ever go to jail, unlike the nickel and dime drug pusher on the corner:

http://takimag.com/article/narco_liquidity_hargreaves_allen#axzz42Vz4Qvnw

G M

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 26643
    • View Profile
Re: Heroin poppy farming up 40 x since US in Afghanistan
« Reply #390 on: March 10, 2016, 07:50:21 AM »
Money laundering from drug trafficking accounts for 6% of banking as much as oil and gas?

Though bank employees are complicit none ever go to jail, unlike the nickel and dime drug pusher on the corner:

http://takimag.com/article/narco_liquidity_hargreaves_allen#axzz42Vz4Qvnw

Too big to jail.

Body-by-Guinness

  • Guest
Legal Grass Impacts Cartel's Cash
« Reply #391 on: March 20, 2016, 03:46:05 PM »
Legalization hit the cartels bottomline, among other things.

http://time.com/3801889/us-legalization-marijuana-trade/

G M

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 26643
    • View Profile
Re: Legal Grass Impacts Cartel's Cash
« Reply #392 on: March 20, 2016, 06:00:24 PM »
Legalization hit the cartels bottomline, among other things.

http://time.com/3801889/us-legalization-marijuana-trade/

Not true. They trade super lab meth and heroin for high grade Colorado weed for domestic distribution. Funny how the legalization advocates keep missing this part of the story.

Body-by-Guinness

  • Guest
Let Doctors Doctor
« Reply #393 on: March 23, 2016, 06:19:51 PM »
In early December I underwent rotator cuff surgery. Turned out to be a major tear that could not be addressed arthroscopicly, resulting in a 6 inch incision on my dominant shoulder where they went in and set screws around which they rebuilt my 'cuff.

I was told that recovery would be painful and it has proven to be, with rehab proving particularly perplexing. Unmedicated sleep proves illusive, which has made Percocet something of a godsend. My usual bedtime regimen involves 4 ibuprofen and 2 melatonin. If I'm still awake an hour after that I take a Percocet and that does the trick for four hours or so.

Or at least use to. At my last follow up with my ortho surgeon I was informed federal and state scrutiny would prevent future Percocet scripts. With full recovery forecast to take until December that bodes a number of unpleasant months. Thanks drug warriors; here's a piece from an MD noting similar folly:

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/physicians-face-moral-dilemma-conscription-war-drugs

I note GM provides another unsourced and unresponsive critique to a post of mine, all while failing to realize the War on Drugs he doggedly supports creates the endless perverse incentives he blithely cites as reason to continue policies that have utterly failed by any rational measure. I've stopped responding to posts here--and many other worthwhile voices have been stifled--due to GM's intransigence and unpleasant rhetorical habits. This is Crafty's list and he's welcome to measure benefits and costs as he pleases, but a lot of folks have been driven out of the conversations by the unresponsive, snarky, authoritarian badgering GM traffics in.

Don't believe me? Watch this:

GM: can you name a single criteria by which the War On Drugs can be measured a success? You failed to do so before, launching into all sorts of facile sophistry rather than answer the question at hand. So respond to the fucking question. Can you name a single criteria by which the WOD can be considered a success? If you can't name one will you stop supporting a policy that has failed by any sane measure?

If that past is a predicate GM won't answer the question, or provide any rational measure of success, all while continuing to ardently support folly that has lead to the warehousing of millions of Americans, hundreds of billions of dollars spent, gross abuse of founding principles, all without rates of addiction falling while banned substances continue to cost less in terms of real dollars, and then castigating anyone who points out the gross counterproductivity of it all. Sigh.

This question wasn't answered the first dozen times I asked it; I won't be around to see how it's answered the 13th time. Crafty, feel free to drop me a line should it become possible to ask a simple question here without contending with a circular, ad hominem response that fails to address the matter at hand.


ccp

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 19587
    • View Profile
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #394 on: March 23, 2016, 07:18:44 PM »
Actually I thought I chased you off the board.  In any case your posts are appreciated and enjoyed.  I hope you would reconsider posting.

And yes the policy makers have intruded big time into the medical field with regards to narcotics.  In the 90s and early 2000s doctors were criticized big time for being too wary of prescribing narcotics for pain.

Now we are told we are too lax.

Truth is we are very limited in what we can do for pain.  pain specialists will send patients for injections and procedures less for their value and more because they make mucho dollars.

From the CDC which for some reason is involved.  I guess because of an epidemic of people buying selling and using these drugs illicitly. 

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/65/rr/rr6501e1.htm

One can perhaps find similarities among narcotics throughout recent history and society

After the Civil War it became apparent veterans were becoming junkies to morphine.  Remember the cocaine in COKE  and the realization of how that was a disaster?  Go ask Sigmund.

How about the great movie 'Monkey on my Back' about the true story of Bennie Ross becoming an addict.

Who ever invents a medicine that can SAFELY relieve pain that is either not an NSAID or a narcotic will become the biggest "drug dealer" and the most deservedly rich one the world has ever know.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 07:29:43 PM by ccp »

Crafty_Dog

  • Administrator
  • Power User
  • *****
  • Posts: 71948
    • View Profile
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #395 on: March 23, 2016, 08:17:31 PM »
Woof BBG:

LOVE having you participate here.  Please give me a call.  You have PM.

G M

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 26643
    • View Profile
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #396 on: March 24, 2016, 11:35:07 AM »
"The war on drugs" is a poor metaphor. Just as the war on crime isn't really a war. Is there an endpoint or just something that has to be done to preserve some semblance of civilization.

DougMacG

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 19316
    • View Profile
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #397 on: March 24, 2016, 12:46:44 PM »
"The war on drugs" is a poor metaphor. Just as the war on crime isn't really a war. Is there an endpoint or just something that has to be done to preserve some semblance of civilization.

Also the 'war on poverty' has just prolonged whatever we define as poverty.  Of course the results the 'war on drugs' include failure.  For one thing, driving up the price drives up the incentives for trafficking, etc.  We are the side of recognizing and criticizing unintended consequences yet seem to have no answer for this.

WOD failures don't necessarily mean legalize all drugs or remove all drug laws.  I would like to see innovative thinking toward strategies other than total prohibition or total legalization.  (I don't have an answer for that.)

BBG, your posts and viewpoints are appreciated here!

From a libertarian viewpoint, in theory, our liberties extend out until they adversely affect someone else. 

I would like to see drug use or drug possession laws and prosecution apply only when it is connected with adverse affect on others.

Obviously, there are times when drug use or abuse affects others, contributing to crime and tragedies.

One major setback on drug use and many other things is the idea that your healthcare is now a public good, not your private business, based on bad policy choices and wrongly decided Supreme Court cases.  Personal risk taking is now everyone's business. 

I don't like to see meth, heroin, etc on an equal footing with pot in the legalization discussion.  I don't think it advances the cause.

I have a house, ski and spend a lot of time in Colorado.  Everybody has an opinion about how pot 'legalization' is going.  A topic in itself.  Latest news is the crackdown and prosecution of 'unlicensed' grow houses.  Legalization is a funny word to use.  Reminds me of gambling and Fast and Furious gun sales where it is legal only if the government does it.

Generally speaking, I prefer decriminalization to legalization and government sanctioning.  Also prosecutorial discretion over mandatory sentences for activities that are widely accepted, if not harming others.

As I have posted on privacy issues, we need to take stock of what liberties we have lost, rank them in order of priority and possibility of getting them back, and start working out some strategies to gradually get them back.  Right now we are moving swiftly in the opposite direction.  Our side is divided and the statists are still advancing.

Even pot legalization in places like Colorado looks to me like a big government takeover. 

Further complicating legalization is the question of prescription drugs.  Hit by a car at 17, I felt about like BBG does now.  My mom turned down pain prescriptions for me when I left the hospital; she said dad could write a prescription if needed.  In teenager fashion I figured, whatever, I'll get what I need at school.  A year later I lost a cousin to some kind of drug accident.  It could have been almost any of us.

If drugs were truly legal, pharmacies wouldn't need a back room and many ailments would be self addressed, especially with information available today on the internet.  We could use our own wisdom and discretion of what we want or need.  The practice of medicine would be drastically changed, partly for better, partly (mostly?) for worse.

Some of the free choice thinking doesn't fully fear or appreciate the power of addiction.  Also mal-use and mis-dosage.

G M

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 26643
    • View Profile

ccp

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 19587
    • View Profile
The left. Only Republicans have free will.
« Reply #399 on: April 09, 2016, 10:51:27 AM »
Recently read Vivek Murthy's report on drug abuse.  He points out how in the 90's medical experts were running around saying we "under treat" pain and that those who are legitimately treated with narcotics for real pain DO NOT get addicted.  I even recall a Purdue drug rep (makers of oxycontin)  telling myself and group of my colleagues the same thing.  We all looked around at each other with disbelief that she could be serious when she makes this claim.  Lawyers, politicians, and media types jumped on the bandwagon all pointing out with stoic outrage that doctors would just let people suffer for "fear of causing addiction" rather than use enough opioids .  He points this out and I agree this was the case back then.

Now we know we were right to be careful all along and now the medical "experts", followed by pols like Vivek Murthy, media and lawyers are pointing out we contribute to the epidemic by prescribing too many narcs.

But now Murthy and others are telling us essentially drug abusers have no responsibility for they have a disease.  We should treat them with medical care, with love, with more money for treatment, etc.

Now the pendulum is completely the opposite.

I agree with GM.  These same poor creatures victims of bad genes, culture, or environmental issues are destroying others' lives, stealing from friends, relatives, destroying families, and all the rest.

My philosophy is that people do have FREE will.  We are not the genetic robots like ants.  Yes we can all make mistakes and do bad things.  I can forgive anyone for that .  But not if they continue to do the same.  Drug addicts know right and wrong like the rest of us.

And yeah I know the films showing rats pushing levers for cocaine over food.  Blah blah blah.

The answer for the treatment of pain lies in this kind of research:

http://www.internalmedicinenews.com/specialty-focus/pain/single-article-page/newly-isolated-spider-venom-compounds-could-relieve-chronic-pain/e1731b1c69dc14fb1a6fea8ab74d031d.html

My subject heading for this post is,  "The left. Only Republicans have free will."

What I mean by this is according to the left only Republicans are to be held responsible for their alleged cruelty bigotry racism sexism and of course LBGTism.  Everyone else is a victim.  Even the  low lives who spend there days running around robbing stealing and lying to get high.

Most people in jail are victims of oppression Islamic murderers just need jobs and all the rest.  But those bastard Republicans......

Personal responsibility, honesty, integrity or the pursuit of it is out the window.

 
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 01:34:48 PM by ccp »