Author Topic: Issues in the American Creed (Constitutional Law and related matters) SCOTUS  (Read 709225 times)

DougMacG

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Re: Issues in the American Creed (Constitutional Law and related matters)
« Reply #1600 on: November 14, 2020, 12:47:41 PM »
T - Interesting stuff.  I don't agree with your conclusion.  I've studied a little contract law myself and I believe there are a number of ways of expressing consent.  In my view, all 50 states have.  Rhode Island consents now and is sending electors to Washington to participate in a constitutional process.

"By the way....every legal agreement you'll enter into, in your life requires a signed contract. "

   - Simply not true.

I prefer the Declaration of Independence as well but don't see it as the governing document.

"And those of us who do not consent?"   -  Count me often in that group, a conservative in a liberal electorate.  We have some protections against tyranny by the majority but perhaps not enough.  Mostly we don't have enough recourse against politicians we elect who don't keep their word.

ccp

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George Will
« Reply #1601 on: November 20, 2020, 09:07:28 PM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/republicans-are-arguing-against-the-framers-original-intent/2020/11/19/0269875e-2aab-11eb-9b14-ad872157ebc9_story.html

The Framers did not know of the concept of "illegal immigrants "

but it is hard to think to me at least they would have approved of illegals being shipped in to increase apportionments for Congress

they are here illegally
would the founders have granted them political representation ?

I don't think Will's argument is by any means fool proof

George - go away.

ccp

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Roberts votes with the libs
« Reply #1602 on: November 26, 2020, 05:05:49 AM »
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2020/11/26/barrett-factor-scotus-rules-nys-cuomo-illegally-targeted-churches-with-covid-lockdown-order-n2580719

I wonder with  Justice  Barrett now on the Court will Ch. Just. Roberts now become even more of a lib?


DougMacG

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Issues in the American Creed (Constitutional Law, Texas lawsuit
« Reply #1603 on: December 09, 2020, 03:36:46 AM »
Statistician in Texas Lawsuit Against Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin Says Probability of Biden Winning Election Was One in a Quadrillion!

USC and former Harvard statistician determines that the possibility of Joe Biden winning the states of Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin were basically statistically impossible. ........... In the brief submitted to the Supreme Court, Texas includes a declaration from Pacific Economics Group member and USC economics professor, Charles J. Cicchetti, Ph.D. Dr. Cicchetti is the former Deputy Director at the Energy and Environmental Policy Center at Harvard University’s John Kennedy School of Government and received his Ph.D. in economics from Rutgers University. According to Dr. Cicchetti, his calculations show the probability of Joe Biden winning...
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/12/statistician-texas-lawsuit-georgia-michigan-pennsylvania-wisconsin-says-probability-biden-winning-election-one-quadrillion/
« Last Edit: December 09, 2020, 03:47:21 AM by DougMacG »

ccp

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odds of Joe Gaffe winning elections was one in quadrillion
« Reply #1604 on: December 09, 2020, 06:31:46 AM »
The odds of winning the Powerball jackpot are 1 in 292,201,338.


Crafty_Dog

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ccp

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special counsel is to be appointed by AG and can be fired by AG
« Reply #1607 on: December 17, 2020, 01:23:42 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_counsel

the Dems will not be duped into this like Jeff Sessions



ccp

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SCOTUS vote against counting illegals in the census
« Reply #1610 on: December 29, 2020, 09:53:15 AM »
https://justthenews.com/government/courts-law/supreme-court-vacates-lower-court-rulings-related-trump-admin-apportionment

illegals are not "undocumented" - they are "illegal" and we know full well there are 20 million in the US


DougMacG

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Re: Bill to abolish the electoral college
« Reply #1612 on: January 13, 2021, 03:02:07 PM »
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-joint-resolution/14/text?q=%7B&fbclid=IwAR396DiJJfvf4B2whMjlHOYyBUhOHF724KJOx1DC1Bpayr9sVcYFNgJpqpw

What say half the states that are smaller than average in population about giving up all political clout?  How does this poll in South Dakota?  One of 38 states needed for ratification.

It would be more efficient for them to introduce an amendment abolishing the entire constitution in one swoop, except maybe the abortion article.

Seriously, who you elect to your state legislature determines your future freedom.  Get involved!

ccp

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Re: Issues in the American Creed (Constitutional Law and related matters)
« Reply #1613 on: January 13, 2021, 03:10:16 PM »
I heard part of the capital hill show today

and on the Democrat side all I heard
was "rule of law"
"protect" or "threat to democracy"
at least one "gentlemen or gentlewoman"
mentioned threat or attack of electoral college

then at same time these charlatans

sanctimonious hypocrites liars are proposing to rid of electoral
college




ccp

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Probably Larry the Lib partisan
« Reply #1614 on: January 15, 2021, 03:53:07 PM »
who interprets the Constitution alway in ways to benefit Democrat party

behind the impeachment and Senate trial of Trump - the latter AFTER he leaves office
he interprets this can be done so as if convicted Trump is not eligible to run again

funny how equally qualified colleague would politely disagree with the rabid partisan (scumbag ) Larry the Lib:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/01/13/senate-impeachment-trial-constitutional-after-trump-leaves/

I am having tough time controlling my outrage so do apologize if I offend anyone with my color comments


DougMacG

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Re: Issues in the American Creed (Constitutional Law and related matters)
« Reply #1615 on: January 18, 2021, 11:50:59 AM »
Judge Luttig lays out the case, you cannot conduct an impeachment conviction trial on a former President.

https://twitter.com/judgeluttig/status/1348669592420290561
.
A president cannot be impeached after he leaves office.  Therefore, were the House of Representatives to impeach the President before he leaves office, the Senate of the United States could not thereafter convict the former President and disqualify him from future public office.
·
The former President would no longer be incumbent in the Office of the President at the time of the Senate proceeding and would therefore no longer be subject to "impeachment conviction" by the Senate, under the Constitution's Impeachment Clauses.
·
This is to say that the Senate's power under the Constitution is only to convict (or not) an incumbent president.
·
The very concept of constitutional impeachment presupposes the impeachment, conviction, and removal from office of a president who is, at the time of his impeachment, incumbent in the Office of President from which he is removed by the impeachment.
·
The text, structure, and evident purposes of the Constitution's several Impeachment Clauses, all, confirm this understanding.
·
For example, Article II, Section 4 of the Constitution reads, "The President, Vice President and all civil officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors."

DougMacG

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Issues American Creed, Constitutional Law, Keystone XL
« Reply #1616 on: February 04, 2021, 07:23:27 AM »
Interesting point here:
https://www.dailysignal.com/2021/02/01/this-legal-hurdle-could-trip-up-bidens-cancellation-of-keystone-xl-pipeline/

"A recent Supreme Court case that may provide guidance is Department of Homeland Security v. Regents of the University of California. In a 5-4 decision last June, the justices ruled that the Trump administration violated the Administrative Procedure Act by doing away with an Obama administration policy called Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, or DACA.

The key similarity is the concept of  “reliance interest,” GianCarlo Canaparo, a legal fellow with The Heritage Foundation, told The Daily Signal. The phrase is mentioned several times in the high court’s opinion in the DACA case.

President Barack Obama’s executive action, which allowed illegal immigrants brought to the United States as minors to stay legally under certain circumstances, created an expectation among people in the country. Thus, if the U.S. government wanted to scrap the DACA policy, it would have to go through an administrative procedure.

This created a “reliance interest” in the policy, the majority opinion by Chief Justice John Roberts said.
"


   - The Keystone XL Pipeline is already under construction.  Investors and workers and state governments have made commitments based on prior policies - in a way that might be compared with the US Supreme Court's "reliance interest" declared in their DACA opinion, which stopped Pres. Trump from reversing his predecessor's policy. 


"Both policies, according to court precedent, “created rights” that require the government to go through a procedure to undo ... “The administration also did not provide a stated purpose for the decision. You could say it was to reduce carbon emissions. But the oil will still be transported by train or truck.

The majority opinion in the Supreme Court’s ruling noted that  some DACA recipients had enrolled in degree programs, started careers, opened businesses, and bought homes. This crossed from being an emotional appeal to being a legal argument, because those persons took such actions in reliance on government policy.

Similarly, TC Energy issued at least six contracts and was set to employ 11,000 for the $8 billion construction of the pipeline to carry 830,000 barrels of crude oil per day from oil sands in Alberta to Steele City, Nebraska. From there, the pipeline would connect with another Keystone pipeline that runs south to the Gulf Coast.

The Supreme Court kept DACA in place, for the interim, while stating that the Department of Homeland Security has the authority to rescind the amnesty policy.

The high court didn’t rule on the legality of Obama’s policy, only that the Trump administration violated the Administrative Procedure Act in ending it. The justices also said Trump’s DHS was “arbitrary and capricious” for not providing a compelling reason for the policy change. 

Congress passed the Administrative Procedure Act in 1946, after  World War II, to recognize that the executive branch might have to take emergency action without congressional approval. Congress, however, wanted guidelines in place. ”
"


   - Good points there.  Now we may see if the Court has consistency in their decisions or just twisted these legal principles to stop Trump at every turn.  It could be the latter.

« Last Edit: February 04, 2021, 07:27:37 AM by DougMacG »

DougMacG

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Issues in Constitutional Law, CDC bans evictions
« Reply #1617 on: February 14, 2021, 09:58:03 AM »
https://fee.org/articles/landlords-are-struggling-to-make-ends-meet-as-cdc-extends-eviction-ban/

Landlords Are Struggling to Make Ends Meet as CDC Extends Eviction Ban
Any landlord who fails to comply with the CDC’s policy can be slapped with fines up to $200,000 and could face criminal prosecution.

Many constitutional attorneys have questioned why the CDC is making policy decisions in the residential real estate market, given that the Constitution does not authorize it to do so. Only Congress has the power to create and pass laws.

The Public Health Service Act does give the CDC the authority to take steps to curb the spread of the virus, but it only authorizes the agency to “provide for such inspection, fumigation, disinfection, sanitation, pest extermination, destruction of animals or articles found to be so infected or contaminated…and other measures.”

The CDC has extended that authority by claiming that allowing landlords to evict delinquent or destructive tenants will exacerbate the spread of the virus.
------------------------------
If the order is lodge in place, why aren't ALL people banned from moving, not just deadbeat tenants?  Isn't that unequal treatment under the law.  What do their finances have to do with disease spread.  Other courts are open using virtual techniques - like everyone else.

The constitutional question gets covered up by state and local mandates of the same.  But if we allow our agencies these unauthorized, unchecked powers ...

   ... what could possibly go wrong?

ccp

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SCOTUS on challenge to Pa elections shananigans
« Reply #1618 on: February 22, 2021, 08:28:21 AM »
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/tyler-o-neil/2021/02/22/inexplicable-alito-and-thomas-dissent-as-supreme-court-strikes-down-pennsylvania-election-lawsuit-n1427260

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/20pdf/20-542_2c83.pd

I cannot find the votes

Alito and Gorsuch and Thomas dissent

of course the libs , as always take the partisan position and apparently Roberts who could be the least bold Chief Justice in history agrees with libs

I think Barret recused herself

so now the Democrats are free to rig future elections
as they did ......


 :-(

ccp

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update
« Reply #1619 on: February 22, 2021, 09:29:01 AM »
Kavanaugh Barrett
also joined Dems

 :roll:

ccp

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Garland
« Reply #1620 on: February 23, 2021, 08:02:46 AM »

Crafty_Dog

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WJ: Luttig & Rivkin: Jan 6's seeds in 1887
« Reply #1621 on: March 19, 2021, 06:13:22 AM »
Congress Sowed the Seeds of Jan. 6 in 1887
The Electoral Vote Count Act lets Congress think it can choose the President, but it’s unconstitutional.
By J. Michael Luttig and David B. Rivkin Jr.
March 18, 2021 12:59 pm ET


Congress plans to establish a commission to investigate the Jan. 6 storming of the Capitol. We already know one reason for that terrible event. Members of the mob acted in the mistaken belief, encouraged by President Trump, that lawmakers had the power to determine the election’s winner. Congress itself sowed the seeds of this belief when it passed the Electoral Vote Count Act of 1887 and could destroy it root and branch by repealing that law.

The EVCA grew out of another bitterly contested presidential election. In 1876 officials in Florida, Louisiana and South Carolina certified competing slates of electors, one for Republican Rutherford B. Hayes and one for Democrat Samuel J. Tilden ; a single electoral vote from Oregon was similarly contested. The 20 disputed votes were enough to decide the election. A congressional commission ultimately chose Hayes in a political deal. In exchange for the presidency, Republicans agreed to end Reconstruction and withdraw federal troops from the South.

The EVCA was enacted 10 years later, largely to limit Congress’s role in determining which electoral votes to accept. Yet Congress gave itself more authority than the Constitution allows, by establishing a labyrinthine process to resolve state electoral-vote challenges. The most constitutionally offensive provision gave Congress the absolute power to invalidate electoral votes as “irregularly given,” a process that a single representative and senator can trigger by filing an objection.

Fortunately, this provision has seldom been invoked—only twice before 2021—and no objection has ever been sustained. But this year Republican lawmakers vowed to contest the results in six swing states that Joe Biden carried. Although the objections had no prospect of success in a Democratic House and those that were filed (for Arizona and Pennsylvania) were voted down overwhelmingly in both chambers, the law put Congress smack in the middle, where it uncomfortably found itself in 1876.

That’s not what the Framers intended. The Constitution’s Electors Clause gives state legislatures plenary authority over the manner of choosing electors and relegates Congress to determining on what day the Electoral College would cast its votes. The 12th Amendment, ratified in 1804, reformed the Electoral College by providing for separate votes for president and vice president. It also reiterates the Article II, Section 1 language that the certified state electoral results are to be transmitted to Washington, opened by the president of the Senate, and counted in the presence of both congressional houses.


No constitutional provision empowers Congress to resolve disputes over the validity of a state’s electoral slate—or for that matter addresses who is to resolve these disputes. Significantly, the 12th Amendment gives Congress no power to enact legislation to enforce its provisions, unlike subsequent amendments expanding the franchise. The Necessary and Proper Clause doesn’t support such legislation either. The constitutional text contains further indications that the Framers chose to exclude Congress from participating in presidential elections. While Article I, Section 5 grants Congress the authority to judge the elections of its own members, no such power is given with regard to presidential elections. And Article II, Section 1 forbids members of Congress from being appointed as electors.

In fact, after much debate, the Framers deliberately chose to deny Congress any substantive role in selecting the president and vice president, except in the rare case that no candidate has an Electoral College majority. This was for compelling separation-of-powers reasons. As Gouverneur Morris explained at the time, “if the Executive be chosen by the [National] Legislature, he will not be independent [of] it; and if not independent, usurpation and tyranny on the part of the Legislature will be the consequence.”

Thus Congress’s prescribed role as audience during the process of opening and counting the electoral votes is ministerial. With electoral college votes coming from all of the states, the counting had to be performed by a federal government entity, and both the executive and judicial branches had potential conflicts of interest. That Congress has no constitutional “skin in the game” of presidential selection made it perfectly positioned for this role of official observer.

Who then does have the power to settle disputes over electoral slates, such as those in 1876 and 2020? Whether electors are validly chosen is a quintessentially legal determination, not a political one. When state legislatures select presidential electors, they exercise power vested in them by the U.S. Constitution, not by state law. As the power to say what federal law is rests with the federal judiciary, it is the federal courts that have the authority and the responsibility to resolve these disputes.

Congress should promptly repeal the Electoral Vote Counting Act. Given the tight constitutional timeline for casting and counting votes and inaugurating a president, lawmakers should enact a statute providing for expeditious federal judicial resolution of all questions relating to compliance with state legislatively established procedures for selecting presidential electors, the validity of elector selection, and the casting of electoral votes—and requiring eventual mandatory Supreme Court review.


By ridding the country of this unconstitutional and anachronistic law, lawmakers would remove themselves from the process for choosing the president and surrender back to the federal judiciary the role Congress unconstitutionally arrogated to itself almost a century and a half ago. That would go a long way toward ensuring that America never witnesses a siege on the National Capitol on a future Jan. 6.

Mr. Luttig served as a judge on the Fourth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, 1991-2006. He advised Vice President Mike Pence on the 2020 vote certification. Mr. Rivkin practices appellate and constitutional law in Washington. He served in the White House Counsel’s Office and Justice Department under Presidents Reagan and George H.W. Bush.



ccp

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every liberal Jewish lawyer will be on this panel
« Reply #1623 on: April 09, 2021, 10:34:11 AM »
no shortage of liberal Jewish democrat lawyers to serve on this "bipartisan" panel

I am sure Larry Lib will be selected for his expertise:

https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2021/04/08/buttigieg-eldercare-is-infrastructure-that-makes-americans-thrive/

ccp

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Re: Issues in the American Creed (Constitutional Law and related matters)
« Reply #1624 on: April 09, 2021, 10:56:05 AM »
may I add the obvious

the conclusion of the panel is already etched in stone or a foregone conclusion

it is not if Dems should pack the Court it is really all to determine how to package to sell (scam ) the public into agreeing
it is needed to
save "democracy".

ccp

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Andrew McCarth from
« Reply #1625 on: April 17, 2021, 02:00:13 PM »
from the fire hydrant thread

"The Supreme Court felt FDR’s heat and changed its jurisprudence. As progressives browbeat conservative justices and gradually filled vacancies with liberals, the Court abandoned its defense of the Constitution’s limits on federal government power, laying the groundwork for the imperial presidency, a Congress that concedes no boundaries, and the administrative state.

Do the Democrats really have their eyes on four Supreme Court seats? Yeah, I suppose they do. You can call those seats Roberts, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Barrett."

They have already succeeded in intimidating Roberts

ccp

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liberal activist democrat Justice Sotomayer
« Reply #1626 on: April 22, 2021, 01:37:16 PM »
unhappy with conservative justices:

https://www.rawstory.com/sonia-soto/

"stare decisis"

the leftist lawyers panicking over abortion etc

all rings hollow

giving the MSM another reason to overtake headlines with some trumped up outrage at the make up of the Supreme Court is "out of control" is "rogue"  etc etc

we will see armies of Democrat lawyers on the MSM stations telling us all why the Court must be packed

flaming partisan Sonia is IN ON IT the pre planned script

watch Cooper and Cuomo and Wallace and and all their "legal analysts " start using this as a pretext to brainwash the viewers with this to justify Court packing

the game is played the same way over and over again

while W paints and gives lectures about being sweet and nice and humble an love thy immigrants
   he really sounds like the biggest schmuck I have ever seen
      wonder why conservatives have kept getting wiped up in the political octagon . :roll:



ccp

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DougMacG

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Re: Breyer does not sound like he wants to retire
« Reply #1631 on: June 14, 2021, 07:25:58 PM »
Hang in there Justice Breyer. These people don't care about you.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/06/stephen-breyer-legacy-retirement/619168/

Every Democrat right now seems to know the Democrats are about to lose power.  Maybe instead of bitch, moan and whine, they should govern better. .
« Last Edit: June 15, 2021, 06:27:41 AM by DougMacG »

DougMacG

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Go to hell Brett Kavanaugh, upholds eviction moratorium
« Reply #1632 on: June 30, 2021, 10:05:41 PM »
A lot of people stood behind Brett Kavanaugh when he was under attack. All we ask in return is that he judge using the same constitution the Founders ratified with all its amendments. But no.  He's using the make-it-up-as-you-go one.
https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2021/06/another-botched-republican-supreme-court-nomination.php
« Last Edit: July 01, 2021, 06:23:08 AM by DougMacG »

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Issues in the American Creed (Constitutional Law and related matters)
« Reply #1633 on: July 01, 2021, 05:47:55 AM »
He is a feminist Bushie.

DougMacG

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Re: Issues in the American Creed (Constitutional Law and related matters)
« Reply #1634 on: July 01, 2021, 09:36:23 AM »
Big day in the Constitutional Law business.  My last plea to Justice Breyer.  The greatest liberal Justice ever isn't a quitter.  Hang in there buddy!

Monte Python predicted it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jdf5EXo6I68

DougMacG

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Constitutional Law, "Voting Rights" AZ case, vote integrity laws
« Reply #1635 on: July 02, 2021, 05:39:37 AM »
CNN Opinion is a contrary indicator of what really happened.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/01/opinions/arizona-voter-access-supreme-court-blow-douglas/index.html
------------
Your right is to participate in the election as reasonably defined by your state legislature.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2021, 05:44:36 AM by DougMacG »

ccp

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Re: Issues in the American Creed (Constitutional Law and related matters)
« Reply #1636 on: July 02, 2021, 06:26:39 AM »
"CNN opinion"
what is the legal opinion of  one of the world's most famous masturbator?

anyone see him on night time cable?






ccp

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A Tale of 2 Jewish Democrat Harvard Lawyers
« Reply #1637 on: July 08, 2021, 06:12:40 AM »
"Professor". (quotes on purpose) Larry lib democrat party partisan biased poor analyst :

https://twitter.com/ac360/status/1412939401802436608

And Professor Dershowitz who works hard at keeping objectivity :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrlScbbNYVY
« Last Edit: July 08, 2021, 07:36:31 AM by ccp »

Crafty_Dog

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WSJ: The Temptation of Judging for the Common Good
« Reply #1638 on: July 25, 2021, 05:40:39 AM »
As liberals lick their wounds from the recent Supreme Court term, a small but noisy band on the right has launched a dissent against the conservative legal movement that produced the court’s majority. They want a new jurisprudence of “moral substance” that elevates conservative results over legalistic or procedural questions such as individual rights, limited government and separation of powers. Some advocates call this idea “common good originalism,” but it isn’t originalism. It’s no different from the raw-power judicial activism conservatives have railed against for decades as unaccountable, unwise and dangerous.

The “common good” pitch arrived nearly full-born in a 2020 essay by Harvard law professor Adrian Vermeule. A brilliant eccentric, Mr. Vermeule is best known for his advocacy of unchecked presidential and administrative supremacy and for the incorporation of Catholicism into civil law, which he calls integralism and critics call theocracy.

Mr. Vermeule is skeptical of law, restraints on government and the Enlightenment generally. He describes originalism as “an obstacle to the development of a robust, substantively conservative approach to constitutional law and interpretation.” To that end, he would give less emphasis to “particular written instruments” like the Constitution and more to “moral principles that conduce to the common good.” A web link to Thomas Aquinas ’ “Summa Theologica” suggests what he has in mind.

A handful of populist conservatives— Hadley Arkes, Josh Hammer, Matthew Peterson and Garrett Snedeker —took up the “common good” banner in an essay published in March. Frustrated that conservatives can’t seem to win the culture war no matter how many judges they appoint, they fault the conservative justices’ legal formalism as morally denuded and counterproductive to conservative ends. But they part with Mr. Vermeule by avoiding sectarianism in favor of vague references to “moral truth” and in branding their enterprise as a variant of originalism, one centered on the Constitution’s preamble and its reference to “the general welfare.”

That phrase, according to the essay, opens the door to a “truly conservative jurisprudence,” one in which a judge’s duty is “to test the underlying moral justification for why a law exists” and render judgment “on whether the statutes or the executive orders in question can finally be judged as justified or unjustified, defensible or wrongful.”

As with liberal talk about the “living Constitution,” the high-minded rhetoric conceals an assertion of unbridled power. Liberals, the quartet justly complain, rack up victories because they are unabashed about enforcing their own moral purposes. That’s “a form of tyranny,” to which they urge conservatives to respond in kind by remaining cognizant of results and not splitting hairs (and votes) over arcane matters of legal interpretation.


That is a far cry from originalism, the interpretive philosophy Justice Antonin Scalia championed. Scalia looked to the plain meaning of the words in the Constitution at the time they were enacted. He also championed textualism, which applies the same approach to statutory interpretation. The common gooders, by contrast, would put a thumb on the scale (or, when necessary, a brick) to reach what they believe are conservative ends. They say that anything less is “morally neutered.”

But originalism and textualism defer to the morality wrought in the law by those who enacted it. The duty of a judge in a system of self-government is to exercise “neither Force nor Will, but merely judgment,” Alexander Hamilton wrote in Federalist No. 78. Or as Scalia put it in his dissent from Planned Parenthood v. Casey (1992), “Value judgments . . . should be voted on, not dictated.”

The Constitution doesn’t codify the common good, let alone appoint judges as its inquisitors. The Framers, as students of history, understood that mankind is fallible and that a government powerful enough to prescribe moral truth could achieve only tyranny. Rather than put their faith in the beneficence of statesmen, they established a structure that pits faction against faction to “secure the blessings of liberty,” as the preamble puts it. James Madison thought self-government “presupposes” public virtue, which can’t be dictated, only sown in the soil of freedom.

As in theory, so too in practice. Moral truth isn’t the output of any government program or court decision. It is cultivated by families, communities and civil society. It has long been the progressive tendency to seek a governmental mandate for the perfection of man and the conservative tendency to resist. The court decisions that social conservatives bemoan—from Roe v. Wade on down—can’t be criticized for failing to take a position on moral truth, only for imposing a progressive vision by judicial fiat. A jurisprudence of restraint, one that recognizes the proper limits of government, preserves the space necessary to practice moral values—ask the Little Sisters of the Poor or Catholic Social Services of Philadelphia.

There is no contradiction between the conservative legal movement’s pursuit of limited government and the common-gooders’ substantive ends. Genuine limits on government power protect the dignity and worth of the human person. The court’s history proves the point. When it has traded away constitutional command for popular notions of the common good, the result has been moral tragedy. Buck v. Bell (1927) approved compulsory sterilization of the “manifestly unfit” as a “benefit . . . to society.” Kelo v. New London (2005) regarded government’s taking homes from families for the benefit of a private corporation as “the achievement of a public good.” Yet the common-good quartet deride “the pursuit of limited government” as amoral, a hobbyhorse of the “individual liberty-obsessed.”


One might excuse these objections if a results-oriented jurisprudence promised some practical benefit, but it doesn’t. The success of the conservative legal movement is evident in the five Supreme Court justices, and scores of lower-court judges, who have described themselves as originalists. No jurist to date has claimed the “common good” mantle.

And originalism delivers results. In the past several months, self-consciously originalist decisions have fortified property rights, limited unaccountable bureaucracy, strengthened protections for freedom of association, recognized young adults’ Second Amendment rights, and expanded the freedom of religious practice. What is to be gained from abandoning originalism now, at the apex (at least to date) of its influence?

The critics’ main answer is to assail the court’s decision in Bostock v. Clayton County (2020), which interpreted the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to permit employment-discrimination claims based on sexual orientation or transgender status. Yet the Bostock dissenters, led by Justice Samuel Alito, faulted Justice Neil Gorsuch’s decision not for its embrace of textualism but for doing textualism badly. As Ed Whelan of the Ethics & Public Policy Center observed: “A bungling carpenter should not lead you to condemn the craft of carpentry.”

The high court in recent years has moved away from approaches that often sacrificed the principles of limited government to popular fashion or expert opinion. Fostering division among conservatives threatens that project at a time of special peril, as progressives march through the institutions of power. The chief obstacles to the left’s ambitions are the Constitution and a judiciary that withstands the pressure to read the enthusiasms of the elite into the law. If conservatives seeking easy victories succumb to the allure of facile judicial activism, those barriers will be breached.

For his part, Mr. Vermeule takes inspiration from an 1892 encyclical in which Pope Leo XIII “urged French Catholics to rally to the Third French Republic in order to transform it from within.” He imagines American Catholics will eventually co-opt “executive-type bureaucracies” to effect a “restoration of Christendom.” Such a ralliement seems far less likely in the U.S. than in France, but it failed there too.

Mr. Rivkin served at the Justice Department and the White House Counsel’s Office in the Reagan and George H.W. Bush administrations. Mr. Grossman is an adjunct scholar at the Cato Institute. Both practice appellate and constitutional law in Washington.

Crafty_Dog

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Immigration judges ordered
« Reply #1639 on: July 28, 2021, 06:19:51 AM »
to not use the term "alien"

Are they part of the excutive branch or the judiciary?

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Re: Immigration judges ordered
« Reply #1640 on: July 28, 2021, 04:29:21 PM »
to not use the term "alien"

Are they part of the excutive branch or the judiciary?

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1101

(3)The term “alien” means any person not a citizen or national of the United States.

DougMacG

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Re: Issues in the American Creed (Constitutional Law, Amendments?
« Reply #1641 on: July 31, 2021, 03:30:48 AM »
 “If the Constitution is to be changed from age to age merely by interpretation, why does it contain within itself a rather elaborate process for formal amendment?”

     -  M. Stanton Evans
« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 04:00:52 AM by DougMacG »

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WSJ: The Unlimited Power of Eviction Ban
« Reply #1643 on: August 25, 2021, 12:45:54 PM »

A Doctrine of Unlimited Power
The defense of Biden’s eviction ban should have the Justices on red alert.
By The Editorial Board
Aug. 24, 2021 7:02 pm ET


President Biden’s rental eviction ban has reached the Supreme Court a second time, and the Administration’s defense of its action is an alarm bell for the Justices about executive overreach.

In a brief filed Monday, the Administration argues that the law “by its plain terms grants the government broad authority” to take any measures that “in [its] judgment” are “necessary” to prevent contagion. It assumes as a given that the government could confine non-infectious people in their homes.

“It would be strange to hold that the government may combat infection by prohibiting the tenant from leaving his home, but not by prohibiting the landlord from throwing him out,” the brief says. Try to find the limiting principle in that view of the powers of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

In defending its restrictions on cruise ships, the government had previously argued it could “shut down transportation in general” and entire industries. “Their legal authority goes all the way to getting transmission to zero,” a CDC attorney said. “Just because that’s not factually an option doesn’t mean that they don’t have the legal authority to try.” Wow.

A federal judge in Florida in June enjoined the CDC’s cruise-ship rules, joking (in part) that the government’s expansive interpretation of its public health powers could allow it to “generally shut down sexual intercourse in the United States.” Such an interpretation would run afoul of the non-delegation doctrine, the judge explained.


That's the doctrine that Congress can’t hand its legislative powers to an administrative agency without articulating an “intelligible principle.” The Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals also ruled last month that the Administration’s interpretation of its powers could raise a “nondelegation problem” because it would “grant the CDC director near-dictatorial power” during the pandemic.

Americans may be horrified by stories of Australians arrested for leaving their homes and the government shooting dogs over Covid-19 fears. But the CDC could do the same under the Biden Administration’s interpretation of its powers.

Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Neil Gorsuch and Clarence Thomas raised the problem of Congress delegating limitless power to executive agencies in a Gundy v. U.S (2019) dissent. Justice Brett Kavanaugh didn’t take part in that case, but he has also signaled a need to revisit non-delegation precedents.

“If laws could be simply declared by a single person,” the Gundy dissenters wrote, “[l]egislators might seek to take credit for addressing a pressing social problem by sending it to the executive for resolution, while at the same time blaming the executive for the problems that attend whatever measures he chooses to pursue.”

That sounds prescient as Democrats in Congress take credit for stopping evictions while Republicans flay the Administration for harming landlords. Justices need to make clear that Congress can’t hand off its legislative power to the CDC to act as a dictator.


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Sotomayor speaks
« Reply #1645 on: October 01, 2021, 06:30:04 AM »
« Last Edit: October 01, 2021, 12:32:03 PM by Crafty_Dog »

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Barnett
« Reply #1646 on: October 01, 2021, 12:34:39 PM »
Moreover, at the founding it might have been reasonable to
assume that legislators might deliberate about the constitutional
scope of their powers—as the first Congress did when debating a
national bank—a deliberation of which judges might well be
respectful. Today, however, if legislators pay any attention to the
Constitution at all—and they typically pay none—they merely
debate whether or not the courts will uphold their acts. When
courts, in turn, are deferring to legislatures about the scope of
their own powers, while legislatures are deferring to the court’s
willingness to uphold their laws, we have what I call the problem
of “double deference,” where no one is assuring that legislatures
are remaining within their just powers (pp. 128-129).

When devising implementing doctrine, courts should be
mindful of this reality. I propose that, to protect the rights
retained by the people, judges should require legislatures to
articulate the proper end they seek to accomplish—a seemingly
reasonable demand—and then examine the fit between the means
adopted and the stated end. And simply helping out a favored
interest group at the expense of either a minority of the people or
the people as a whole is not a proper end of a legislature in a
republic in which the people themselves retain their natural rights.

By the same token, where different persons are being treated
differentially, courts should ask how this differential treatment of
individuals or groups is justified. What judges should not do, I
maintain, is adopt highly unrealistic and formalist “presumptions”
in favor of legislative power that cannot be rebutted by any
argument or evidence presented by a member of the sovereign
people to an independent and neutral magistrate.

In this way, irrationality and arbitrariness review provides an
outer boundary or guard rails within which legislatures are
entirely free to regulate the exercise of natural rights or liberty in
good faith for the common good.

Such an outer boundary of good faith would seem to fall within the
qualifiers that Campbell attaches to the discretion he says legislatures
were thought to have at the founding: It is not “rigid,” it does not
“necessarily” lead to “less government,” and it “principally” relies on
reinforcing the structure of our Republican Constitution.

=========
Barnett responds to now Justice ACB:

AMY CONEY BARRETT

Like Jack Balkin, Amy Coney Barrett is entirely right that I
am not making an originalist case for the Republican versus the
Democratic constitutions.50 Perhaps an originalist case can be
made that the public meaning of “We the People” was
49. See Randy E. Barnett, Afterword: The Libertarian Middle Way, 16 CHAP. L. REV.
349, 358 (2013) (“ecause proponents of social justice and legal moralism typically
propose superimposing their schemes onto existing structures of private property and
freedom of contract, rather than supplanting them altogether, these stances are necessarily
more ambitious than simply limiting legal coercion to the libertarian core that must still be
ascertained and enforced.”).

50. See Amy Coney Barrett, Countering the Majoritarian Difficulty, 32 CONST.
COMM. 61, 66 (2016) (“The book is less about what the Constitution’s original public
meaning requires than about what is normatively attractive.”).

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individualist, but Jud Campbell’s article shows how challenging it
would be to establish this. There is one sense, however, in which
originalism does figure into my analysis: The “republican”
conception of the Constitution I identify explains and justifies
certain features of our written Constitution that Levinson and
others have condemned as “undemocratic.”

Put another way, if the original meaning of the text of the
Constitution is undemocratic, the narrative I present helps bolster
the case for adhering to these features rather than treating them
like inkblots. It may well be that the very features of our
Constitution that lead American law professors like Levinson to
prefer Euro-style parliamentary systems—and recommend them
to other countries—is what makes the original meaning of our
Constitution “republican” and therefore good, rather than
“undemocratic” and therefore bad.

Barrett begins by focusing on my claim that courts need to
“realistically assess whether restrictions on liberty were truly
calculated to protect the health and safety of the general public,
rather than being the product of ‘other motives’ beyond the just
powers of a republican legislature.”51 This is necessary, I wrote,
because “[r]equiring the government to identify its true purpose
and then show that the means chosen are actually well suited to
advance that purpose helps to smoke out illicit motives that the
government is never presumed by a sovereign people to have
authorized.”52

To this she responds with a series of questions:
Barnett’s emphasis on the importance of recovering the
legislature’s true purpose understates the complexity of
identifying legislative intent. It is extraordinarily difficult [. . . ]
for a court to glean what was “really” going on behind the
scenes of a statute. A legislature is a multimember body, and
different members may have different motives. Perhaps some
legislators enacting a ban on filled milk were concerned about
its health effects and others were beholden to a powerful dairy
lobby. Whose intent controls? Is such a statute truly calculated
to promote health and safety or is it the kind of rent-seeking
statute that rational individual sovereigns would not
countenance? Do the rent-seeking motives of some legislators

51. BARNETT, p. 125 (her emphasis) (praising the late-18th and early 19th-century
courts that took this approach).

52. P. 232 (my emphases).
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corrupt the statute if other legislators act with the public
welfare in view?53

Given how I expressed myself in the book, this is a point well
taken. Despite my assertion that courts should identify the “true
purpose” of a measure, I do not propose an inquiry into the
subjective motives of a multimember body like the legislature.

What I meant—and wish I had stated more precisely—is that
courts should be cognizant that legislators and regulators
sometimes, and even often, impose restrictions on the liberties of
some of the people for reasons other than the protection of the
health and safety of the public, or some other power they justly
exercise.

Instead, elected legislatures and unelected regulators alike
sometimes invoke the health and safety of the public as a pretext
for channeling special benefits and privileges to a politically well
connected few. As Barrett notes, in the book, I give several
examples. Indeed, most of the most famous constitutional cases
about economic regulation involve measures enacted for such
illicit reasons.

What I propose is that when restrictions on the liberties of
We the People are challenged, courts should be realistic rather
than formalist about the possibility that such laws were enacted
for what Justice Rufus Peckham described as “other motives.”54
But this is a conclusion he reached not by inquiring directly into
the motives of New York state legislators, but after realistically
assessing and debunking the purported health and safely rationale
for a maximum hours laws just for bakeshop employees—but
neither the bake shop employers who worked in the same
conditions nor employees in other occupations with comparable
working conditions.

So, rather than inquire into the subjective motives of
legislators, courts should require that legislatures commit
themselves to a proper end they claim to be achieving, and then
assess whether the means chosen to meet that end were
“irrational” or “arbitrary.” Although courts do not do so now, it
is not too much to ask legislatures to include the purpose for their
measures in the enactment itself, rather than rely on lawyers to
53. Barrett, supra note 50, at 70 (footnotes omitted).

54. Lochner v. New York, 198 U.S. 45, 64 (1905).
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make up the purposes after the fact in litigation, as courts
currently permit.

Then, courts should examine whether the means chosen
bears a sufficient relation to the stated end. This is an inquiry that
courts make routinely in cases involving judicially-favored
“fundamental rights” or “suspect classes” of persons.55 Again, in
the book, I provide examples of this inquiry in practice, including
the lower court opinion in Lee Optical v.Williamson. And I
contrast this with the Court’s uncritical deference to legislative
assertions of public purpose in Bradwell v. Illinois56 and Plessy v.
Ferguson.57

The search for sufficient means-ends fit is simply too
common a judicial inquiry to be dismissed as impractical for some
liberties and but not for others. The reason for disparate
treatment of different liberties is due to a judicial determination
that some liberties are more worthy of judicial protection than
others. Those who, like Barrett, question placing one’s “faith in
courts” need to explain why judges get to choose some rights as
“fundamental” and some classifications as “suspect” but not
others.

Denying a judicial duty to hold legislatures to within their just
powers in all cases or in no cases would eliminate the reliance on
judicial discretion to identify which rights and liberties deserve
protection. But putting one’s “faith in judges” to choose
meaningful scrutiny in some cases, and fictitious “rational basis”
scrutiny in others, is inconsistent with a professed skepticism of
the “institutional capacity” of judges. I do not see how you can
have it both ways.

Barrett characterizes “the normal functioning of the
legislative process” this way:

The legislature is not an idealized body that acts with one mind,
but a multimember body that produces legislation through a
complex and even chaotic process. Any bill that runs the gamut
of this process represents compromises made along the way,
sometimes to resolve the competing desires of different

55. See Randy E. Barnett, Scrutiny Land, 106 MICH. L. REV. 1479 (2008).
56. 83 U.S. (16 Wall.) 130 (1872).
57. 163 U.S. 537 (1896).

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constituencies and sometimes because the legislature has
drawn a line somewhere.58

But “resolving the competing desires of different
constituencies” is not, standing alone, a proper legislative purpose
in a constitutional republic in which the liberties of each and every
person merits protection. To this description of the “complex and
even chaotic process,” Barrett might have added that bills are
very often written by industry representatives for staffers, and
then are logrolled past legislators who typically know nothing of
their contents.

Without transparency, how are we supposed to know
whether these “compromises” among the “competing desires of
different constituencies” are proper or improper? In a
constitutional republic in which We the People are the ultimate
sovereign, the persons who are on the coercive end of such
“compromises” have a right to know. And the due process of law
requires them to have the opportunity to contest the necessity and
propriety of such compromises before a neutral magistrate.
Nor are legislators realistically “accountable” for most of
what they do. No legislator has ever been defeated because they
voted for a licensing bill that irrationally or arbitrarily restricted
the liberty of Americans to braid hair, arrange flowers or
furniture, make caskets, or drive a limo. And this is not because
such restrictions have been approved by the general public. It is
because the electorate is ignorant of these acts, has insufficient
interest in them to care, and is only allowed to choose between
two competing parties, each of whom favors an amalgam of
policies, only a handful of which are particularly salient (pp. 176-
178).59

In light of this, to imagine that these liberties are somehow
“balanced” in the legislative process by legislators who are held
to account by the voters is to engage in magical thinking. The only
time where legislators do consider the constitutionality of their
actions is when restricting a right such as the freedom of speech
that the courts will protect. Only when legislators know that
individual citizens may challenge their actions in court and judges
58. Barrett, supra note 50, at 73.

59. See also ILYA SOMIN, DEMOCRACY AND POLITICAL IGNORANCE: WHY
SMALLER GOVERNMENT IS SMARTER (2013).
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228 CONSTITUTIONAL COMMENTARY [Vol. 32:207

will be looking over their shoulders do they even discuss the
question of a measure’s constitutionality.

In every other area, legislators employ the artifice of “double
deference”: Courts will defer to the legislature’s assertion of
power and then, when asked if what they do is constitutional,
legislators say “yes, because the courts will uphold us” (pp. 128-
29). This is as big a fraud on the public as anything that economic
regulation is supposed to prevent.

Barrett asks a very good question: “Would Prigg, Dred Scott,
and Plessy have come out differently if courts had only applied
the standard Barnett proposes? Was it really a misguided
attachment to judicial restraint that drove those cases, or did the
Court see through the same discriminatory lens as the
legislature?”60 To answer this, consider three cases.

The first is the Slaughter-House Cases61 where there was an
extensive record in the Louisiana legislature that the slaughterhouse bill was a good faith public health measure.62 The only constitutional issue was whether a monopoly given to a private
company was an appropriate means of pursuing a legitimate
legislative purpose. But after the Supreme Court’s ruling refusing
to recognize the right to pursue a lawful occupation as protected
from state abridgement by the Fourteenth Amendment, the
entire legislative record was constitutionally irrelevant. Although
the majority in Slaughter-House cited this record, the law would
have been equally constitutional without a single witness being
sworn.

You need not take my word for this. The proof is that the
very next day, in Bradwell v. Illinois, 63 the Court relied on its
ruling in Slaughter-House to turn away Myra Bradwell’s claim
that denying her the right to practice law was arbitrary or
irrational. And the Court did so without any examination into the
irrationality or arbitrariness of this restriction. True, three of the
dissenters in Slaughter-House concurred in the judgment.64 So
Barrett is correct to suggest that, for these three justices, the

60. Barrett, supra note 50, at 79 (footnotes omitted).
61. 83 U.S. 36, 124 (1872).
62. See Randy E. Barnett, The Three Narratives of Slaughter-House, 41 J. SUP. CT.
HIST. 295 (2016).
63. 83 U.S. (16 Wall.) 130 (1872).
64. Id. at 139 (Bradley, J. concurring).
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outcome would have been the same under the standard that I
propose.

But, unlike Justice Miller, Justice Bradley was forced to
explain why Myra’s exclusion was not arbitrary, and the reasons
he articulated provided women’s rights advocates with a rallying
cry. In contrast, according to the majority’s approach, a court
need not even inquire into the basis of the law. So, while the case
would likely have come out the same under either approach, with
mine, Myra Bradwell had a chance of success. And, even if she
lost, the court’s reasoning could have been criticized and used as
a basis for change in the future.

Furthermore, in Bradwell, Chief Justice Chase dissented not
only from Miller’s majority opinion but “from all the opinions” in
the case,65 including Justice Bradley’s. Even in 1873, when
opinions of women were highly sexist, the Chief Justice would
have upheld Myra Bradwell’s challenge as an irrational or
arbitrary restriction on her right to pursue a lawful occupation.

So, under the standard I propose, one justice would have reached
a different result.

In Plessy, the Court asserted that: “[W]e cannot say that a
law which authorizes or even requires the separation of the two
races in public conveyances is unreasonable.”66 Most likely, like
the majority in Bradwell, they would have upheld segregation
regardless of what record was developed below. But relying on
Slaughter-House, the Court needed no such record to reach its
conclusion. Consequently, the Court did not even have to
consider whether the state’s claim to be preserving the public
order was plausible. How convenient for them. The judicial
restraint of the Democratic Constitution took them completely
out of the picture.

As with Chief Justice Chase’s dissent in Bradwell, in Plessy,
the more realistic assessment of this exercise of the police power
justified a solo dissent by Justice Harlan. So here too, the different
standard made a difference; the difference between a unanimous
decision and one accompanied by a contemporaneous dissenting
opinion to explain to the public and posterity why the majority
was wrong.

65. Id. at 142 (Chase, C.J., dissenting).
66. 163 U.S. 537, 550–51 (1896).
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230 CONSTITUTIONAL COMMENTARY [Vol. 32:207

The fact that such a law would get scrutiny today shows that
courts are quite capable of supplying it. So, where there is the will
to ensure that the liberty of We the People is not irrationally or
arbitrarily restricted, there is a way—provided that courts
appreciate their essential role as servants of the sovereign people,
including individual citizens like Myra Bradwell and Homer
Plessy.

Finally, like other authors, Barrett mentions my
“presumption of liberty”: Under “Barnett’s Republican
Constitution . . . [r]ather than treating legislation as presumptively
constitutional, they must treat the citizen’s challenge as
presumptively correct.”67 As she acknowledges, however, in this
book, I say very little about putting the thumb on the scale for the
citizen against the state: just two paragraphs. Indeed, after a long
discussion of the lower court opinion in Lee Optical, I note that
“who bears the formal burden of proof may be less important for
preserving the sovereignty of the people than that courts
realistically assess the rationality and arbitrariness, even if the
legislature is given the benefit of the doubt” (p. 243).

Given the professed sympathy of modern law professors for
so-called “legal realism,” ironically, in my book I am merely
advocating realism over formalism. I am skeptical that the legal
realists were really all that interested in realism. In the end, as
soon as they had the votes, they replaced realist “Brandeis briefs”
with a formal presumption of constitutionality, which eventually
was deemed to be irrebuttable, and therefore ceased to be a true
“presumption.”

In my jaundiced opinion, assertions of “realism” and
“restraint” were merely useful arguments to advance the
progressive political agenda of the Legal Realists. Likewise,
today’s progressives are interested in “judicial restraint” and
deference to the majoritarian branches only when the laws they
like are being challenged as unconstitutional.

Like others, Barrett refers to my approach as “libertarian,”68
yet all I am asking for is realism. If such realism cuts in a
“libertarian” direction, then that is more a reflection on

67. Barrett, supra note 50, at 62.
68. Barrett, supra note 50, at 76 (referring to “Barnett’s generally libertarian
approach”).
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c

legislatures and what they are “really” up to most of the time than
it is on my priors.

« Last Edit: October 01, 2021, 01:04:34 PM by Crafty_Dog »


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Re: Issues in the American Creed (Constitutional Law and related matters)
« Reply #1648 on: October 02, 2021, 10:08:27 AM »
we do need an amendment that people coming here illegally
or on vacation should not be able  go to our hospitals give birth to an automatic citizen


DougMacG

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Re: Issues in the American Creed (Constitutional Law and related matters)
« Reply #1649 on: October 02, 2021, 06:21:26 PM »
we do need an amendment that people coming here illegally
or on vacation should not be able  go to our hospitals give birth to an automatic citizen

The 14th amendment gave black slaves born here, who have no citizenship anywhere else in the world, full citizenship. 

As the article states, one purpose of an amendment is to clarify wrong interpretations.  Ending birthright citizenship for tourists, visitors and illegal aliens is a perfect cause for a new amendment.

Here's the catch.  Based on this 2015 Gallup list, The 38th most conservative state is Illinois.  If you want a new conservative leaning amendment to pass in 3/4th of the state legislatures, it has to pass in IL.  A liberal favored amendment would have to pass in South Dakota to be ratified.  Steep hill to climb either way.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/181505/mississippi-alabama-louisiana-conservative-states.aspx

Perhaps the amendment fight can be a tactic.  Make swing states deal with the constitutional issues of the day.  The federal government shall provide border enforcement and may not ban states from joining in that effort.  Maybe ending birthright wrongful citizenship falls in this category.  Put a limit on the size and scope of federal government.  Take popular fights to the state legislatures.  Call the question.  Make Dem representatives in swing districts vote against sovereignty and freedom.  Target 'em and boot 'em, and try again.  Fight the long war.

Even if critics say voting and politicking don't matter.