Author Topic: We the Well-armed People (gun and knife rights stuff ) Second Amendment  (Read 990776 times)


DougMacG

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 19486
    • View Profile
Re: Polls show , , ,
« Reply #1801 on: February 25, 2018, 09:52:02 AM »
People can spin this either way, but a majority of 54% believe that tighter gun control laws will either do no good or make things worse.

G M

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 26643
    • View Profile

Crafty_Dog

  • Administrator
  • Power User
  • *****
  • Posts: 72454
    • View Profile
GVRO proposal 2.0
« Reply #1803 on: February 27, 2018, 10:53:23 AM »

G M

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 26643
    • View Profile
Re: GVRO proposal 2.0
« Reply #1804 on: February 27, 2018, 12:00:03 PM »
What say we?


https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/02/gun-control-republicans-consider-grvo/

No. If someone is a threat to self or others, there are already legal mechanisms to address that. Just because the FBI and the coward county sheriff failed to do their job doesn’t mean they need new powers.

Crafty_Dog

  • Administrator
  • Power User
  • *****
  • Posts: 72454
    • View Profile
Re: We the Well-armed People (gun and knife rights stuff )
« Reply #1805 on: February 27, 2018, 02:35:40 PM »
" there are already legal mechanisms to address that. "

What are they?

G M

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 26643
    • View Profile
Re: We the Well-armed People (gun and knife rights stuff )
« Reply #1806 on: February 27, 2018, 05:55:55 PM »
" there are already legal mechanisms to address that. "

What are they?

As an example from Colorado:


(1) Emergency procedure may be invoked under either one of the following two conditions:

(a)(I) When any person appears to have a mental illness and, as a result of such mental illness, appears to be an imminent danger to others or to himself or herself or appears to be gravely disabled, then a person specified in subparagraph (II) of this paragraph (a), each of whom is referred to in this section as the “intervening professional”, upon probable cause and with such assistance as may be required, may take the person into custody, or cause the person to be taken into custody, and placed in a facility designated or approved by the executive director for a seventy-two-hour treatment and evaluation.

(II) The following persons may effect a seventy-two-hour hold as provided in subparagraph (I) of this paragraph (a):

(A) A certified peace officer;

(B) A professional person;

(C) A registered professional nurse as defined in section 12-38-103(11), C.R.S ., who by reason of postgraduate education and additional nursing preparation has gained knowledge, judgment, and skill in psychiatric or mental health nursing;

(D) A licensed marriage and family therapist, licensed professional counselor, or addiction counselor licensed under part 5, 6, or 8 of article 43 of title 12, C.R.S., who by reason of postgraduate education and additional preparation has gained knowledge, judgment, and skill in psychiatric or clinical mental health therapy, forensic psychotherapy, or the evaluation of mental disorders;  or

(E) A licensed clinical social worker licensed under the provisions of part 4 of article 43 of title 12, C.R.S.

(b) Upon an affidavit sworn to or affirmed before a judge that relates sufficient facts to establish that a person appears to have a mental illness and, as a result of the mental illness, appears to be an imminent danger to others or to himself or herself or appears to be gravely disabled, the court may order the person described in the affidavit to be taken into custody and placed in a facility designated or approved by the executive director for a seventy-two-hour treatment and evaluation.  Whenever in this article a facility is to be designated or approved by the executive director, hospitals, if available, shall be approved or designated in each county before other facilities are approved or designated.  Whenever in this article a facility is to be designated or approved by the executive director as a facility for a stated purpose and the facility to be designated or approved is a private facility, the consent of the private facility to the enforcement of standards set by the executive director shall be a prerequisite to the designation or approval.

(2)(a) When a person is taken into custody pursuant to subsection (1) of this section, such person shall not be detained in a jail, lockup, or other place used for the confinement of persons charged with or convicted of penal offenses;  except that such place may be used if no other suitable place of confinement for treatment and evaluation is readily available.  In such situation the person shall be detained separately from those persons charged with or convicted of penal offenses and shall be held for a period not to exceed twenty-four hours, excluding Saturdays, Sundays, and holidays, after which time he or she shall be transferred to a facility designated or approved by the executive director for a seventy-two-hour treatment and evaluation.  If the person being detained is a juvenile, as defined in section 19-1-103(68), C.R.S ., the juvenile shall be placed in a setting that is nonsecure and physically segregated by sight and sound from the adult offenders.  When a person is taken into custody and confined pursuant to this subsection (2), such person shall be examined at least every twelve hours by a certified peace officer, nurse, or physician or by an appropriate staff professional of the nearest designated or approved mental health treatment facility to determine if the person is receiving appropriate care consistent with his or her mental condition.

(b) A sheriff or police chief who violates the provisions of paragraph (a) of this subsection (2), related to detaining juveniles may be subject to a civil fine of no more than one thousand dollars.  The decision to fine shall be based on prior violations of the provisions of paragraph (a) of this subsection (2) by the sheriff or police chief and the willingness of the sheriff or police chief to address the violations in order to comply with paragraph (a) of this subsection (2).

(3) Such facility shall require an application in writing, stating the circumstances under which the person's condition was called to the attention of the intervening professional and further stating sufficient facts, obtained from the personal observations of the intervening professional or obtained from others whom he or she reasonably believes to be reliable, to establish that the person has a mental illness and, as a result of the mental illness, is an imminent danger to others or to himself or herself or is gravely disabled.  The application shall indicate when the person was taken into custody and who brought the person's condition to the attention of the intervening professional.  A copy of the application shall be furnished to the person being evaluated, and the application shall be retained in accordance with the provisions of section 27-65-121(4) .

(4) If the seventy-two-hour treatment and evaluation facility admits the person, it may detain him or her for evaluation and treatment for a period not to exceed seventy-two hours, excluding Saturdays, Sundays, and holidays if evaluation and treatment services are not available on those days.  For the purposes of this subsection (4), evaluation and treatment services are not deemed to be available merely because a professional person is on call during weekends or holidays.  If, in the opinion of the professional person in charge of the evaluation, the person can be properly cared for without being detained, he or she shall be provided services on a voluntary basis.

(5) Each person admitted to a seventy-two-hour treatment and evaluation facility under the provisions of this article shall receive an evaluation as soon as possible after he or she is admitted and shall receive such treatment and care as his or her condition requires for the full period that he or she is held.  The person shall be released before seventy-two hours have elapsed if, in the opinion of the professional person in charge of the evaluation, the person no longer requires evaluation or treatment.  Persons who have been detained for seventy-two-hour evaluation and treatment shall be released, referred for further care and treatment on a voluntary basis, or certified for treatment pursuant to section 27-65-107 .




Danger to Self & Others/Grave Disability CRS 27-65-102 Information
New Title 27, Article 65
 
On May 16, 2013, Governor John Hickenlooper signed into law HB13-1296, creating the Civil Commitment Statute Review Task Force under C.R.S. §27-60-102.
 
Pursuant to C.R.S. §27-60-102 (3), the Civil Commitment Statute Review Task Force studied the definition of “danger to self or others” as set forth in section C.R.S. §27-65-102 (4.5) and, considering the civil liberties and public safety concerns of that definition, ratified the definition by a majority vote.
 
C.R.S. § 27-65-105, the section that governs mental health emergency procedure, continues to read “imminent danger to others or to himself or herself…” 
 
“Danger to self or others” has been further defined to read:

“With respect to an individual, that the individual poses a substantial risk of physical harm to himself or herself as manifested by evidence of recent threats of or attempts at suicide or serious bodily harm to himself or herself; or”
“With respect to other persons, that the individual poses a substantial risk of physical harm to another person or persons, as manifested by evidence of recent homicidal or other violent behavior by the person in question, or by evidence that others are placed in reasonable fear of violet behavior and serious physical harm to them, as evidenced by a recent overt act, attempt, or threat to do serious physical harm by the person in question.”
Additionally, the Civil Commitment  Statute Review Task Force informally considered the definition and application of the term “imminent” in C.R.S. § 27-65-105.  The plain language meaning of “imminent” should be applied, and can be found here.  In section 105, the term “imminent” applies to the proximity in time of the dangerousness.  More specifically, the term “imminent” applies to a determination of whether the danger to others or himself or herself is current; it does not apply to how soon in time a specific dangerous act may be undertaken.

G M

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 26643
    • View Profile

Crafty_Dog

  • Administrator
  • Power User
  • *****
  • Posts: 72454
    • View Profile

Crafty_Dog

  • Administrator
  • Power User
  • *****
  • Posts: 72454
    • View Profile
POTH: Dick's Sporting Goods stops selling assault style weapons
« Reply #1809 on: February 28, 2018, 12:50:02 PM »
Dick’s Sporting Goods, Major Gun Retailer, Stops Selling Assault-Style Weapons

By JULIE CRESWELLFEB. 28, 2018

The gun department in a Dick’s Sporting Goods store in Paramus, N.J., in 2012. The retailer is taking a stance in the national debate on gun control by ending sales of all assault-style rifles in its stores. Credit Victor J. Blue/Bloomberg

One of the nation’s largest sports retailers, Dick’s Sporting Goods, said Wednesday morning it was immediately ending sales of all assault-style rifles in its stores.

The retailer also said that it would no longer sell high-capacity magazines and that it would not sell any gun to anyone under 21 years of age, regardless of local laws.

The announcement, made two weeks after the school shooting in Parkland, Fla., that killed 17 students and staff members, is one of the strongest stances taken by corporate America in the national gun debate. It also carries symbolic weight, coming from a prominent national gun seller.

Late last week, after coming under attack on social media for their ties to the National Rifle Association, a number of major companies, including Hertz car rental, MetLife insurance and Delta Air Lines, publicly ended those relationships, issuing brief, carefully phrased statements.

But Edward Stack, the 63-year-old chief executive of Dick’s whose father founded the store in 1948, is deliberately steering his company directly into the storm, making clear that the company’s new policy was a direct response to the Florida shooting.
Continue reading the main story
Related Coverage

    ‘It’s One of the Greatest Rifles’: Fans of the AR-15 Explain the Gun’s Appeal FEB. 20, 2018
    Companies Cut Ties to the N.R.A., but Find There Is No Neutral Ground FEB. 23, 2018

Recent Comments
Mark 4 minutes ago

Since the AR15 is not an assault rifle, Dick's never sold them in the first place, but let's not bother ourselves with facts.
Ann G 5 minutes ago

Thank you for your setting an example of what a rational approach to the 2nd Amendment should be. The approach you are taking is what most...
Bill 5 minutes ago

H.R.2951 - To allow Members of Congress to carry a concealed handgun anywhere in the United States, with exceptions.Congress is taking care...

    See All Comments Write a comment

Advertisement
Continue reading the main story

“When we saw what happened in Parkland, we were so disturbed and upset,” Mr. Stack said in an interview Tuesday evening. “We love these kids and their rallying cry, ‘enough is enough.’ It got to us.”

He added, “We’re going to take a stand and step up and tell people our view and, hopefully, bring people along into the conversation.”

Mr. Stack said he hoped that conversation would include politicians. As part of its stance, Dick’s is calling on elected officials to enact what it called “common sense gun reform’’ by passing laws to raise the minimum age to purchase guns to 21, to ban assault-type weapons and so-called bump stocks, and to conduct broader universal background checks that include mental-health information and previous interactions with law enforcement.

This is not the first time Dick’s has made changes in response to a school massacre. In 2012, after the shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School that killed 26 people, Dick’s removed assault-style rifles from its main retail stores. But a few months later, the company began carrying the firearms at its outdoor and hunting retail chain, Field & Stream.

This time, Mr. Stack said, the changes will be permanent.

Mr. Stack said the retailer began scouring its purchase records shortly after the identity of the suspected Parkland shooter, Nikolas Cruz, became known. The company soon discovered it had legally sold a gun to Mr. Cruz in November, though it was not the gun or type of gun used in the school shooting.
Graphic
With AR-15s, Mass Shooters Attack With the Rifle Firepower Typically Used by Infantry Troops

When a gunman walked into a Florida school on Feb. 14, his rifle let him fire in much the same way that many American soldiers and Marines would fire M16 and M4 rifles in combat.
OPEN Graphic

“But it came to us that we could have been a part of this story,’’ he said. “We said, ‘We don’t want to be a part of this any longer,’” said Mr. Stack.

That decision raised rounds of discussions with top executives inside the company as well as the directors, all of whom backed the decision to take a stance, said Mr. Stack.

As of Wednesday morning, the company said all AR-15s and other semiautomatic rifles would be removed from its stores and websites.
Newsletter Sign Up
Continue reading the main story
Sign up for the all-new DealBook newsletter

Our columnist Andrew Ross Sorkin and his Times colleagues help you make sense of major business and policy headlines — and the power-brokers who shape them.
You agree to receive occasional updates and special offers for The New York Times's products and services.

    See Sample Manage Email Preferences Privacy Policy Opt out or contact us anytime

Mr. Stack said Dick’s remained a staunch supporter of the Second Amendment and will continue to sell a variety of sport and hunting firearms. Although he has never been a member of the N.R.A., Mr. Stack said he is, in fact, a gun owner and enjoys trapshooting clay targets.

But when it comes to selling guns to individuals under 21 years of age or stocking assault-style rifles, Mr. Stack said his company was done. “We don’t want to be a part of a mass shooting,” he said.

Dick’s informed its employees of the new policy in an internal note Wednesday morning, shortly after Mr. Stack appeared on “Good Morning America” to discuss the decision.

Dick’s is not the first retailer to stop selling the semiautomatic guns. In 2015, Walmart said that it would no longer sell high-powered rifles in its stores in the United States. But Walmart sidestepped any controversy involving gun politics, attributing its decision to lower customer demand for the military-style rifles.

It is unclear what financial impact the decision will have on Dick’s business. Neither Dick’s nor its competitor, Cabela’s, now owned by Bass Pro Shops, have broken out firearm sales in their financial reports. But last August, Dick’s shares plummeted after it said weak results from its hunting segment resulted in its missing Wall Street’s second-quarter earnings estimates.

Over all, firearm sales for retailers and gun manufacturers have slumped since Donald J. Trump was elected president, as fears of stricter gun regulation receded. Firearm sales data for the United States is not readily available, but background checks tumbled more than 8 percent last year, the largest fall since the F.B.I. began keeping track in 1998.

Mr. Stack said he and his company expected there would be mixed response — including fallout — to its new policy.

“The whole hunting business is an important part of our business, and we know there is going to be backlash on this,” said Mr. Stack. “But we’re willing to accept that.”

He added, “If the kids in Parkland are being brave enough to stand up and do this, we can be brave enough to stand up with them.”

Crafty_Dog

  • Administrator
  • Power User
  • *****
  • Posts: 72454
    • View Profile
Re: We the Well-armed People (gun and knife rights stuff )
« Reply #1810 on: March 02, 2018, 06:02:22 AM »




ccp

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 19807
    • View Profile
New Death Wish movie the libs hate
« Reply #1814 on: March 03, 2018, 05:15:19 PM »
Look at the critic score vs the audience score:

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/death_wish_2018

question answered


Crafty_Dog

  • Administrator
  • Power User
  • *****
  • Posts: 72454
    • View Profile



Crafty_Dog

  • Administrator
  • Power User
  • *****
  • Posts: 72454
    • View Profile


Crafty_Dog

  • Administrator
  • Power User
  • *****
  • Posts: 72454
    • View Profile

G M

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 26643
    • View Profile
Re: Rulers banning weapons is an old story
« Reply #1821 on: March 13, 2018, 11:49:45 AM »
http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/blog/sword-hunt-why-ancient-ruler-confiscated-all-swords-japan

The first gun control laws in the US (that I am aware of) were passed in the post-reconstruction south to keep freed slaves from owning guns.



Crafty_Dog

  • Administrator
  • Power User
  • *****
  • Posts: 72454
    • View Profile




DougMacG

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 19486
    • View Profile
Re: Shapiro on Justice Stevens article; has some interesting background
« Reply #1828 on: March 29, 2018, 07:14:56 AM »
https://www.dailywire.com/news/28721/former-supreme-court-justice-repeal-second-ben-shapiro?utm_source=shapironewsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=032818-news&utm_campaign=position1

Former Justice Stevens is right in terms of process.  Those who think the second amendment is obsolete in terms of need and meaning should amend the constitution, not walk all over it.   More astute liberals could tell Stevens the math of changing the constitution.  They would need to win the 38th most liberal, 13th most conservative state in the union to prevail, South Dakota to ban guns, good luck with that!
http://news.gallup.com/poll/203204/wyoming-north-dakota-mississippi-conservative.aspx
And then go around to the gun owners across the fruited plainwith a big basket and ask for their weapons...

I like that Shapiro takes Stevens to task on Heller and other cases.  The debate is healthy.  Stevens, author of Kelo, never was a very precise reader or serious interpreter of the constitution. 
https://www.economist.com/blogs/lexington/2010/04/kelo_john_paul_stevenss_worst_decision
But give him political credit for giving his seat up to a younger woman just before Republicans should have taken the Senate.  Elena Kagan was confirmed 63-37 in August 2010, and here is Stevens still active in politics 8 years later.

I wonder what gun sales would do while repeal of the second amendment was working it's way through the states...  Nice to see unintended consequences work against the Left for a change, instead of against the country.

ccp

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 19807
    • View Profile
Hogg's appearance
« Reply #1829 on: March 29, 2018, 08:42:05 AM »
don't watch Hogg speak - watch the infowars comparison to Hitler speech.  I was laughing out loud.  He does absolutely remind me of Hitler in his appearance , angry demeanor and the fist in the air:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5551787/Parkland-shooting-survivor-David-Hogg-compared-Hitler.html

G M

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 26643
    • View Profile
Re: Hogg's appearance
« Reply #1830 on: March 29, 2018, 10:48:48 AM »
don't watch Hogg speak - watch the infowars comparison to Hitler speech.  I was laughing out loud.  He does absolutely remind me of Hitler in his appearance , angry demeanor and the fist in the air:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5551787/Parkland-shooting-survivor-David-Hogg-compared-Hitler.html

Yup.


ccp

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 19807
    • View Profile
Re: We the Well-armed People (gun and knife rights stuff )
« Reply #1831 on: March 29, 2018, 03:33:26 PM »
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/03/29/corporate-warfare-nutrish-jumps-aboard-david-hoggs-advertiser-boycott-laura-ingraham/

"time to luv thy neighbor"  he advises Laura and this  coming from a young man who just finished telling anyone and everyone who disagrees with him, "f...you"

Too bad Ingraham apologized

The left is training the twirp to be a good soldier .


ccp

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 19807
    • View Profile
will MSFT ban Hogg?
« Reply #1832 on: March 29, 2018, 04:34:23 PM »

G M

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 26643
    • View Profile
Child activists have disarmed people before
« Reply #1833 on: March 31, 2018, 07:24:30 AM »


It didn't turn out well.

ccp

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 19807
    • View Profile
hogg is a grown man not child
« Reply #1834 on: March 31, 2018, 07:51:18 AM »
quite an impressive entry for this man.  NOtice his DOB is missing .  He is likely 18 yrs old and no longer a "child".  But that would remove the protective label "child"

he has more written about him and unbelievable number of footnotes more then many *truly important* historical figures

What  racket.   They forgot to cite that Soros et al likely published this Wikipedia entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hogg_(activist)
« Last Edit: March 31, 2018, 07:55:43 AM by ccp »



ccp

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 19807
    • View Profile
Re: We the Well-armed People (gun and knife rights stuff )
« Reply #1837 on: April 01, 2018, 09:33:34 AM »
dems use gun control as fund raiser.

yes , the little band of Hogg pranksters will be used as fund raisers.


Crafty_Dog

  • Administrator
  • Power User
  • *****
  • Posts: 72454
    • View Profile


Crafty_Dog

  • Administrator
  • Power User
  • *****
  • Posts: 72454
    • View Profile

DougMacG

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 19486
    • View Profile
A surprising place to find constitutionally illiterate Americans is in the club of current and foreign Supreme Court members, one of whom, Stevens, suggests repealing the Second Amendment as a way of ending the right to keep and bear arms.  But is that so?  

In part, the second amendment says:

"...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms,
 shall not be infringed
."

That right was already there?  Is the right of self defense a natural right, including the right to keep and bear arms, the right to fight off an armed attack on your family or to fight back against an oppressive, unconstitutional government?  Isn't that a pre-existing right, a right that existed before and without the Bill of Rights?

Hamilton argued against a Bill of Rights:  ... bills of rights “are not only unnecessary in the proposed constitution, but would even be dangerous.” In his mind, if the government is prohibited from doing certain things but isn’t prohibited from doing everything it isn’t expressly told it can do, then the danger is in its implications.  That is, the government can then do anything it’s not expressly forbidden to do.
http://www.libertyday.org/institute/2015/12/15/is-the-bill-of-rights-dangerous-alexander-hamilton-thought-so/

In this case, if we already had a natural right of self protection and the constitution did not grant the government the power to take that right away, saying that in an amendment is not necessary could be used to misconstrue people about the meaning of the constitution.  "Government can then do anything it’s not expressly forbidden to do"?  No.  Government can do nothing it is not specifically granted constitutional authority to do.  This is made clear in the 9th amendment:  "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."  To take away guns after repealing the Second, they would have to repeal this too, but this limit was already true before and without its passage and ratification, so repealing this too would still not empower the federal government to take away your pre-existing right.  The country would also need to pass and ratify a new amendment specifically granting Congress the power to "infringe" on "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms", granting the power to deny any or all sales and to take away without warrant all owned weapons.  And that STILL wouldn't give them the power to search for those weapons.  They would further have to repeal the Fourth Amendment, the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects.  

Let's put that on the ballot in South Dakota and see who turns out to vote.

Taking away rights from a free people is hard, usually requires a war.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 07:43:12 AM by DougMacG »

Crafty_Dog

  • Administrator
  • Power User
  • *****
  • Posts: 72454
    • View Profile
Re: We the Well-armed People (gun and knife rights stuff )
« Reply #1843 on: April 05, 2018, 06:16:53 AM »
Doug's post makes a profoundly important point.

Cruces

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
A word about bump fire and bump stocks
« Reply #1844 on: April 05, 2018, 08:56:37 PM »
A word about Bump Fire and Bump Fire stocks
I would like to share with you on the topic of bump fire and bump fire stocks because I am in the middle of writing a response to the ATF comment period for the proposed ban on "bump stocks" (ATF docket number ATF 2017R-22), and I have come to recognize there is a lot of disinformation out there, including in the text of the proposed rule change that would classify "bump fire devices" as machine guns.  Not having seen a prior post that went through it in detail, it occurred to me some of you might be interested in what's at the heart of the current debate.  My apologies if this rather lengthy post generates offense, but I do not maintain a separate blog to otherwise post this original synthesis.  I provide a summary at the end in case the wall of text provided is intimidating.  What grammatical errors may occur I confess are due to this being a first draft of a work to be further refined for submission to the ATF.

Key points/opinions to share:
  • What is bump fire?
  • What is a bump fire stock?
  • Can a "bump Fire Stock" be deemed a "Machine Gun" under existing Law?
  • Final Remarks

What is bump fire?
Bump fire is a shooting technique that is generally applicable to most semi-automatic firearms.  In the standard shooting technique only the trigger finger is used to release the hammer, allow the bullet to be fired, and the action cycled by the firearm's gas system.  The off-hand simply holds the firearm and keeps it on target.  In the bump fire technique, the shooter uses their off hand to pull the firearm forward on to their trigger finger, keeping the trigger finger somewhat rigid in space.  After the trigger is actuated the recoil of the weapon pushes the firearm back off the trigger finger, resetting the trigger.  Forward pressure from the off-hand then quickly brings it back into contact with the rigid trigger finger leading generally to a high rate of fire.  This can be accomplished with nearly any semi-automatic firearm.

By way of example, in some of the earliest instances shooters discovered that they could hook their finger through the trigger and their belt loop in order to keep it steady in front of the trigger, and used a combination of forward pressure from the off-hand and the recoil of the firearm to operate the trigger at high speed.  Demonstration of this technique here: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-SnqKOXqbM until youtube censors it).  Subsequently shooters discovered that the same firing technique was possible without any support from things like sticks, belt loops, etc.  With a carefully held trigger hand the same effects can be reproduced here as shown on an AK-47, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ-FV_VRlXU), and here as shown on a semi-automatic pistol (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL2oKEu_MFo).  It should be obvious but I'll point out that this method of fire is not accurate and for a pistol rather dangerous.  This shooting technique has long been considered at best novelty and little else but potentially dangerous and hard on the firearm.

What is a bump fire stock?
As awareness of the bump fire technique grew, some folks realized that if a standard multi-position stock were allowed to slide freely, and that slide were affixed to the pistol grip, and the pistol grip like wise was allowed to travel freely, bump fire could be performed while still retaining some measure of control via the stock in contact with the shooter's shoulder.  An example of the sort of workmanship involved in the early attempts is here (https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qM1WVYMynmM/UTpEJsc0dmI/AAAAAAAAADc/k3W0M6irWDU/s1600/IMG_4787.JPG

It is important here to be clear that there is no spring installed in the bump stock.  Depending on which politician, activist, or media personality is speaking you may hear that the stock uses "energy from the recoil of a weapon to generate a reciprocating action" (this is part of how a bump stock is defined in a recent Massachusetts law).  That is not what a bump stock does.  No energy from the recoil is harnessed in a bump stock or used for reciprocation.  It is only the forward offhand pressure willfully applied by the shooter that generates reciprocation, and this is done independent of the attachment of a bump stock or traditional stock.  The sliding stock merely helps guide and control the rifle during the reciprocation that normally occurs during bump fire.  An example of a device that DOES use the energy of recoil for reciprocation is the "Atkins Accelerator", which ATF previously has previously deemed a Machine Gun.  More can be read about this here: (https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/mr-bill-akins-and-the-akins-accelerator/).

Another key point to understand is the question of whether or not a bump fire stock "increases the rate of fire achievable" by a semi-auto rifle (the 2nd criteria under the recent Massachusetts law which defines a bump stock in MA).  To answer this one must answer "what is the maximum rate of fire of a semi-automatic rifle?"  The rate of fire for a car is a function of how much gas is applied to the engine, air resistance, road incline, and the mechanical operation of the power train.  Placing a brick on the gas pedal of a car does not "increase the rate of travel achievable" by the car, it merely operates the car toward its limit.  Similarly, the rate of fire for a semi-automatic rifle is "as fast as the trigger can be pulled".  Nothing about the addition of a sliding stock changes the mechanical speed at which the fire control group and bolt group can complete their cycle of fire.  So in point of fact, the MA law that purports to ban "bump stocks", by it's own definition does not apply to the devices marketed as bump stocks since they neither harness recoil energy for reciprocation, nor increase the rate of fire achievable by a firearm.  Not that this will matter for people in MA served with a letter saying turn it in or else (http://blog.goal.org/ma-demands-bump-stock-surrender/).  The saying "justice is blind" can be taken in a dark way.

So what is going on inside a bump fire stock?  Until youtube censors it, a good animation explaining the operation can be found here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SrLM8MKXVg).  As before, it is simply the already achievable bump fire technique except it now has a manual guide to provide more stability and accuracy.  This was brought to arguably its highest practicality in a construction called the "BumpSaw" which leverages a bump stock and a forward bi-pod to offer greater stability (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRXZx3M6bd0 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYt6UYLD83k).  This firearm is arguably intimidating and leads many to question "should the average Joe have access to such a thing?"  More on this later, but remember, all semi-automatic firearms are capable of this rate of fire without modification.  In the Las Vegas shooting, the shooter appears to have used bump stock equipped firearms, but could have achieved the same effects without such devices.  For practical demonstration I refer you to a sort of Paul Bunyan vs. the Steam Saw challenge where renowned shooter Jerry Miculeck shoots essentially as fast and more accurately than a bump stock equipped rifle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTb6hsSkV1w).

Can a "bump Fire Stock" be deemed a "Machine Gun" under existing Law?
The designers of bump stocks, not wanting to be imprisoned for manufacturing and selling "machine guns" wrote letters to the ATF with their designs to ask if they were acceptable to construct market, or if they were prohibited.  The ATF reviewed the designs, and the letter of the law, and determined that attaching a bump fire stock to a semi-automatic firearm did NOT create a machine gun according to the law as written.  Video interview of the ATF reviewer who developed the ruling is here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kryIJIrD5eQ).  Contrary to outlandish claims by certain political figures and organizations, the Obama administration did not let something slip through here.  The ATF merely followed correct and logical analysis of the design and the law as written and came up with the appropriate logical conclusion.  Given Obama's recurrent statements against "weapons of war" and calls for "assault weapons bans", to suggest that the Obama administration improperly favored the approval of bump stocks is, in the classical definition of the term, purely fabulous.

Why was the bump stock not considered a machine gun?  The national firearms act defines a machine gun as follows:
Quote
Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger

In congressional testimony during the passage of the 1936 national firearms act (http://www.keepandbeararms.com/nra/nfa.htm), it was made clear that this definition is intended to separate semi-automatic firearms from machine guns based on semi-auto firearms firing a single bullet per single function of a trigger, and machine guns firing continuously on a single function of the trigger.  In particular, the example of a traditional semi-auto pistol such as a 1911 being distinct from a machine gun is provided.  Thus existing law defines machine guns only in terms of more than one shot being fired per single function of the trigger.  It has nothing to do with the maximum rate of fire achievable by a gun, nor its furniture so long as it fires only one bullet per pull of the trigger.  Some may dislike the wording of this law, but the correct remedy to unfavorable law is to amend or replace it, not skirt around it by administrative innovation.

Quote
Mr. FREDERICK. ... The definition which I suggest is this:

    [“]A machine gun or submachine gun as used in this act means any firearm by whatever name known, loaded or unloaded, which shoots automatically more than one shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.[”]

    The distinguishing feature of a machine gun is that by a single pull of the trigger the gun continues to fire as long as there is any ammunition in the belt or in the magazine. Other guns require a separate pull of the trigger for every shot fired, and such guns are not properly designated as machine guns. A gun, however, which is capable of firing more than one shot by a single pull of the trigger, a single function of the trigger, is properly regarded, in my opinion, as a machine gun.

Mr. HILL. May I ask you a question there?

Mr. FREDERICK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HILL. Suppose your definition were adopted. Would it be practicable to manufacture a gun that would be classed either as an automatic or semiautomatically operated gun, even with more than one function of the trigger, and still answer the purpose, in a large way, of a machine gun which requires only one function of the trigger?

Mr. FREDERICK. I do not think so. For purposes of example, you may look at the automatic pistol which is the standard weapon of the United States Army. That has an automatic discharge of the empty cartridge and a reloading principle which is operated by the force of the gas from the exploded cartridge. But with a single pull of the trigger only one shot is fired. You must release the trigger and pull it again for the second shot to be fired. You can keep firing that as fast as you can pull your trigger. But that is not properly a machine gun and in point of effectiveness any gun so operated will be very much less effective than one which pours out a stream of bullets with a single pull and as a perfect stream.

The current rule in debate (https://www.regulations.gov/comment?D=ATF-2018-0002-0001) as I write this within the ATF, after being pressured by the president and AG to "deem bump stocks to be machine guns" is thus:
Quote
...the Department proposes to exercise its delegated authority to clarify its interpretations of the statutory terms “single function of the trigger,” “automatically,” and “machinegun.”  Specifically, the Department proposes to amend 27 CFR 479.11 by defining the term “single function of the trigger” to mean “single pull of the trigger.” The Department further proposes to amend these regulations by defining the term “automatically” to mean “as the result of a self-acting or self-regulating mechanism that allows the firing of multiple rounds through a single pull of the trigger.” Finally, the Department proposes to clarify that the definition of a “machinegun” includes a device that allows semiautomatic firearms to shoot more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger by harnessing the recoil energy of the semiautomatic firearm to which it is affixed so that the trigger resets and continues firing without additional physical manipulation of the trigger by the shooter (commonly known as bump-stock-type devices).

As we have already covered.  While a stock or similar device equipped with a spring such as an Atkins Accelerator materially harness the recoil energy of the semi-automatic firearm to which it is affixed, the devices commonly owned and soled as "bump stocks" do not harness recoil energy at all.  If you fire a bump stock equipped rifle without an offhand providing forward pressure, only a single shot results.  This rule does not apply, to semi-automatic firearms equipped with the devices sold as bump stocks, yet, it purports to ban the devices that materially do not conform to the definition, and enforcement actions would be expected to commence based on this ruling against devices to which the rule does not apply.  This is certainly a very uncomfortable situation to have in a republic that intends to operate under the rule of law.  It is inappropriate and unacceptable for the executive to simply define things not covered under prohibitions in congressional law (leaving aside the arguable unconstitutionality of firearms prohibitions), as covered under those prohibitions and then subject to DOJ action.  The correct and only acceptable procedure for an administration that adheres to rule of law is to submit the issue back to congress for legislative update to the plain letter of the law, which does not appear to be the expected path forward here.  Again we leave aside for a moment the appropriateness of general firearms prohibition given the text and intent of the 2nd amendment.


Final Remarks
If you've stuck with me this far I commend you on your stamina and curiosity.  As a summary:
  • Bump fire is a technique, not a piece of hardware.
  • Bump fire stocks do not generate bump fire, but merely assist a shooter performing the bump fire technique in keeping the platform more stable.
  • Current laws and proposed legislation mistakenly or falsely assert that bump fire stocks increase the rate of fire of a semi-automatic firearm, or harness the recoil of a firearm to generate a reciprocating action
  • The original ATF ruling is correct that bump fire equipped rifles do not generate sustained fire on their own, and do not fall under the definition of a machine gun as described in the national firearms act
  • Rather than submit the issue to congress for change in law, the Executive is pressuring the ATF to deem bump fire stocks as "machine guns" and conduct enforcement against bump fire stock owners despite these devices materially not being covered under the current law

It is to point out this last issue that I am writing and including the previous material to the ATF during the comment period on the new ruling.  This ruling should not go forward as it is improper, and will lead to litigation and potential injustice and tragedy if it enforcement is attempted, which we could well do without as a nation.  The purpose of this post is to help increase general knowledge of this issue and the material facts for persons who are interested in self defense in general, and interested in upholding the rule of law in the United States, which recognize as an interest to many posters here.  I would encourage persons wishing to get involved on either side of the debate to search online for discussion about what makes a good comment to the ATF, and consider leaving calm, reasoned, and to-the-point  comments with their comment system, which must be adjudicated before the rule goes into effect (so long as it isn't a form letter).  ( https://www.regulations.gov/comment?D=ATF-2018-0002-0001 )


As to points I've left out of this discussion regarding the relevance or appropriateness of such devices in the hands of the American public, there is much to discuss about balancing the needs of public safety with the essential safeguards enshrined by the founders of this nation ensure the capacity of the people in general to resist violence rising from insurrection, usurpation, or invasion.  I do not propose to address this balance in this already very long post, indeed, the discussion could exhaust pages.  I'll suggest however that history has shown that use of NFA registered machine guns in violent crime is all but unheard of.  Hundreds of thousands of such arms are lawfully owned today with no incident.  Based on this it seems to me there is a balance between public safety and, as Tench Coxe says the "...swords and every terrible implement of the soldier" which he says are "the birthright of Americans" which does not require general prohibitions against any particular class of arms.  The devil is in the details but, as I'm sure many of you have observed, our civic discourse no longer seeks to get to the bottom of issues, find ideal balances, and understand details.  I might suggest that the malady at the root of this shortcoming in our civic reasoning is far more a cause of our current public safety concerns than any particular class of arms.  With that, I return you to your regular discourse.

Very Respectfully,
-Cruces
 
Edited to fix title








« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 09:07:19 PM by Cruces »

G M

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 26643
    • View Profile

DougMacG

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 19486
    • View Profile
Re: Very well said! Mark Robinson, Greensboro NC
« Reply #1846 on: April 06, 2018, 08:18:28 AM »
https://www.dailywire.com/news/29119/watch-black-gun-owner-slams-government-trying-take-ryan-saavedra

Logic and emotion nicely combined.  I have been calling on our side to communicate with more clarity.  He's got it.  A future Senator or President, I hope.  That is quite an articulate, passionate and persuasive message delivered without teleprompter or referring to notes.  Respectful and unapologetic. 

ccp

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 19807
    • View Profile
Re: We the Well-armed People (gun and knife rights stuff )
« Reply #1847 on: April 06, 2018, 09:11:10 AM »
My favorite line:

"I don't think that even Rod Serling could come up with a better script"

This can be extrapolated to the entire LEFT:

Listening to CNN is like watching or having a bad nightmare like twilight zone episode that I cannot wake up from.


Crafty_Dog

  • Administrator
  • Power User
  • *****
  • Posts: 72454
    • View Profile
Re: We the Well-armed People (gun and knife rights stuff )
« Reply #1848 on: April 06, 2018, 11:42:18 AM »
Cruces:

Excellent post!

This forum prides itself on its efforts to have a superior level of effort in pursuit of the Truth.

I am sure I am not alone in encouraging you to post more.


G M

  • Power User
  • ***
  • Posts: 26643
    • View Profile
Re: We the Well-armed People (gun and knife rights stuff )
« Reply #1849 on: April 06, 2018, 08:12:56 PM »
Cruces:

Excellent post!

This forum prides itself on its efforts to have a superior level of effort in pursuit of the Truth.

I am sure I am not alone in encouraging you to post more.



Very excellent post! I would point out as a retired LEO who keeps close watch on firearms training, that I am not aware of any credible trainer that that considers the bump stock as anything but a range toy that converts money into noise.