Author Topic: We the Well-armed People (gun and knife rights stuff ) Second Amendment  (Read 986160 times)

JDN

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #650 on: August 12, 2011, 07:28:28 AM »
Unfortunately, if John Adams lived in LA today he would probably go to jail.

G M

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #651 on: August 12, 2011, 08:53:17 AM »
Unfortunately, if John Adams lived in LA today he would probably go to jail.

Reason #198,895 not to live in LA.

JDN

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #652 on: August 12, 2011, 09:02:28 AM »
Let me rephrase that, if John Adams lived in almost ANY city in America, he would probably go to jail.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that unless you can prove that your life is in imminent danger, not merely the taking of your "purse", you have no "right to kill him without asking questions".  Odds are if you do, you will go to jail for a long time.

Crafty_Dog

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #653 on: August 12, 2011, 09:20:01 AM »

G M

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #654 on: August 12, 2011, 09:23:14 AM »
Let me rephrase that, if John Adams lived in almost ANY city in America, he would probably go to jail.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that unless you can prove that your life is in imminent danger, not merely the taking of your "purse", you have no "right to kill him without asking questions".  Odds are if you do, you will go to jail for a long time.

Robbery is commonly defined as taking something of value by the illegal use of force, or the threatened illegal use of force. Meaning that this isn't a pickpocket, this is someone saying "Give me your property or I'll harm you". In places in the US where some degree of sanity still exists, you can use force, including deadly force to protect yourself and others from this.

JDN

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #655 on: August 12, 2011, 10:25:15 AM »
I understand; the theory being you can use deadly force to protect yourself.  I agree with your comment, "you can use force, including deadly force to protect yourself and others from this."

I am quibbling with your quote, "If a robber meets me in the street, and commands me to surrender my purse, I have a right to kill him without asking questions.”

If it had said, "I have a right to kill him if I feel that my life is threatened" I agree.  However, if he/they comes into your shop for example, unarmed, and start taking and/or destroying merchandise, you do not have the right to use deadly force unless they threaten you or someone.

Perhaps more grey is if you are stopped on the street, you feel threatened, although they are unarmed, perhaps there are 2-3 of them, younger and bigger than you.  Still, I would argue that you are required to "ask questions" i.e. give them your wallet i.e. without shooting them.  However, if you feel that they are threatening you directly with loss of life or great bodily harm, it is my understanding that you can use commensurate force.  Still, I question your legal right to shoot and kill them if they are unarmed. 

Imagine, three unarmed thugs come up to you on the street and ask for your 'purse".  In response, asking no "questions", saying nothing, you pull your gun out and shoot all three dead on the street.  Wow....  I'ld say you need a good lawyer.


prentice crawford

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #656 on: August 12, 2011, 10:49:38 AM »
Woof,
 Yes, but if you were allowed by law to do so, wouldn't it be a strong deterrent for the 2 or 3 unarmed, young, big threatening guys from stopping you in the first place? As for the unarmed part, I'm certainly capable of killing someone with my bare hands and I would assume 2 or 3 big young guys would be capable of doing it as well. Does that mean you have to wait until after they've killed you before you can protect yourself? :-P
                                                               P.C.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 12:03:56 PM by prentice crawford »

ccp

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Congressman's grandson pulled out gun to save family
« Reply #657 on: August 12, 2011, 11:34:47 AM »
Man arrested for invasion of congressman's Iowa home
77-year-old Rep. Boswell fought off man who attacked daughter
Below:
Rep. Leonard Boswell, D-Iowa, helped fight off an invader at his farm house on Saturday night. msnbc.com staff and news service reports
updated 7/19/2011 4:09:02 PM ET 2011-07-19T20:09:02 Font: + - DES MOINES, Iowa — One man has been arrested, and a warrant issued for another in an attack at Iowa Congressman Leonard Boswell's home Saturday night, according to a report in the Des Moines Register.

The alleged getaway driver, Cody John Rollins, 19, of Lamoni, Iowa, was arrested Monday, according to Decatur County Sheriff Herbert Muir. The alleged intruder, David Palmer Dewberry, 20, of Fremont, Neb., has a warrant out for his arrest.

The intruder is the son of a family friend, reported the Des Moines Register. Police asked the public to be on the lookout for Dewberry, who could be armed and dangerous.

According to online court records, Dewberry has a record. He was charged with third-degree theft in 2009 in juvenile court. He will face felony charges of burglary and assault while committing a felony if arrested, police said.

Boswell, an eight-term congressman helped fight off an armed man, allegedly Dewberry, who invaded his farm house in Decatur County and attacked his daughter on Saturday night, according to a statement from his office.

The attack occurred around 10:45 p.m. on Saturday at a farm in Lamoni, where Boswell, a 77-year-old Democrat who represents Iowa's third congressional district, was spending the weekend with his wife, Dody, 77, daughter, Cynthia Brown, and grandson, Mitchell Brown, 22.

"The intruder entered the front door of the farm house and physically assaulted Cindy while demanding money at gunpoint," read the statement from Boswell's office.

Advertise | AdChoicesAdvertise | AdChoicesAdvertise | AdChoicesAfter hearing his daughter's screams, the congressman "entered the walkway of their house and immediately went for the guy's gun and was wrestling with him. They were both on the ground," Boswell's chief of staff Grant Woodard told local news station KCCI.

While the two scuffled, Boswell's grandson Mitchell grabbed a loaded .12-gauge shotgun from a nearby room and confronted the intruder, who then fled into the surrounding field and reportedly was still on the run.

"That was my daughter. This guy had his hand on her throat and a gun to her face. If he was going to shoot somebody, I preferred that he shoot me," Boswell said in an interview with easterniowagovernment.com.

Boswell praised his entire family for their "grit" and "determination" in fighting off the attacker.

Only on msnbc.com Updated 116 minutes ago 8/12/2011 4:34:25 PM +00:00 Is culture mutual of respect what UK needs?  Is your ISP cheating you out of bandwidth? Four storylines to watch in GOP debate US ballerinas leap at chance to train in Moscow 
Corbis file Drug patches pose overlooked danger to kids 
Brigham and Women's Hospital Chimp attack victim reveals her new face New leukemia treatment exceeds 'wildest expectations' "The congressman just did what anybody would do if he knew his family was in trouble," said Woodard. "He jumped right into the situation and helped his daughter."

Boswell lives in Des Moines and owns the farm in southern Iowa. He is recovering from a broken rib suffered during the incident.

"I wanted a piece of him. He was threatening somebody I care for very much," Boswell told reporters at a Statehouse news conference, according to easterniowagovernment.com.

The Decatur County Sheriff's Department and state and federal authorities are investigating. The sheriff's department said Saturday that the intruder had not been caught. The attacker is still at large.

Decatur County Sheriff Herbert Muir said "we might" have a suspect in mind. "We have a direction we're going," Muir said, according to easterniowagovernment.com.

"The congressman says the military is the best training for situations like this," said Woodard, referring to Boswell's 20-year military career. "It's a wakeup call to everybody to take precautions and do what they need to do to keep their family safe."

© 2011 msnbc.com

DougMacG

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #658 on: August 13, 2011, 03:50:26 PM »
A couple of points were made over on the UK riot thread, US having lax gun legislation and murder rates higher in gun owning societies.

First, just the constitutional requirement gets ignored when we start to talk about laws or statistics.  Different people read different meanings into the second amendment, but for sure it includes a) the right to bear arms because it's constitutional, it is above the laws written to restrict it, and b) that it's really really hard to change the constitution.

Second, we discuss different murder rates with guns or not as if there is a switch we could flip, if not for right wing extremists, that makes the guns go away.

Other than using The Giant Magnet Theory, passing a law now restricting guns affects only the abiding people.  Only an amazingly powerful, giant magnet could actually take guns from bad guys at the same rate as taking them from the law abiding and law enforcement.

The question is... knowing the bad guys are armed, what do you want to have with you, ready, when you encounter them?

JDN

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #659 on: August 13, 2011, 03:58:53 PM »
Doug, unless you know where to buy that giant magnet,  :-D  I unfortunately agree with your points.

While I prefer a society without guns (giant magnet), as you point out, passing a law now will only restrict law abiding citizens.

But I believe the laws should be draconian for anyone using a gun in the commission of a crime.


G M

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #660 on: August 13, 2011, 04:00:28 PM »
If the giant gun magnet worked, it means the gang members have the advantage when they swarm unarmed victims and the hulking sex offender wins when he confronts a petite female.

G M

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #661 on: August 13, 2011, 04:15:59 PM »
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJH4lGlLOpQ&NR=1[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJH4lGlLOpQ&NR=1


A great place for law abiding citizens to develop their 2nd amendment skills. My favorite vacation spot.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 04:41:00 PM by G M »

Crafty_Dog

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #662 on: August 13, 2011, 10:26:25 PM »
GM:

I found the reason article very interesting.

a) I thought it very pertinent to note the very low crime/murder rates in the late 1800s when gun ownership was quite high and the increase the more the gun laws became more restrictive.  I would add the decrease in crime/murder rates in the US as gun ownership (and right to concealed carry) increases.

b) Concerning the Martin case mentioned in the article, when I first read about the case I was very indignant.  As I learned more I learned it was not a 100% black and white case.  While my sympathies remain overwhemlmingly with Martin and I remain appalled at some of the actions of the authorities, if I remember correctly there was something about a booby trap and something about shooting one of the bad guys after he had already exited the house.

G M

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #663 on: August 13, 2011, 11:02:26 PM »

GM:

I found the reason article very interesting.

a) I thought it very pertinent to note the very low crime/murder rates in the late 1800s when gun ownership was quite high and the increase the more the gun laws became more restrictive.  I would add the decrease in crime/murder rates in the US as gun ownership (and right to concealed carry) increases.

**I'd add that Maine has the 2nd highest rate of gun ownership in the US and the lowest violent crime rate. Now, it's a complex mix of factors as far as crime reductions go, law enforcement and the other elements of the criminal justice can make an impact, as has been demonstrated. The demographics and culture of the city/state apply and of course criminals respond to disincentives, like armed citizens. In fact, criminals dread armed citizens much more than police, because they understand police operate under greater restrictions on the use of force.



prentice crawford

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #664 on: August 15, 2011, 08:18:03 AM »
 
UK Mayhem Leaves Disarmed Citizens at the Mercy of Criminals
 
Friday, August 12, 2011
 
By now you have seen the headlines and images of destruction: the rioting, looting, violent assaults, and arson.  London and other UK cities look like war zones and their citizens are afraid to venture out, because the danger is very real.  It's a view of the temporary breakdown of society.  It is gut check time; a time when the concept of being able to defend oneself gives way to the stark reality that few viable options to do so exist. 

Gun laws in the UK are among the most restrictive in the world.  In March of 1996, a deranged man walked into a school in Dunblane, Scotland and killed 16 children and one teacher. In the aftermath of this tragedy, British politicians sought to reduce violent crime by enacting a ban on all handguns. Handgun owners were given a February 1998 deadline to turn in their firearms--and they did. The UK was supposed to become a much safer place--but dramatic increases in crime following the gun ban proved it didn't. 

A July 3, 2009, Daily Mail article reported that "Britain's violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European Union, it has been revealed. Official crime figures show the U.K. also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa."

And the current bedlam has proved it further.  Restrictive laws concerning long-guns, combined with the outright ban on handguns, leave the country's citizens largely defenseless (it was reported this week that sales of one type of aluminum baseball bats on Amazon UK rose 6,541 percent).  In many places, it was reported that police were unable to stop the mayhem. As a result, panicked, defenseless law-abiding citizens were forced to flee their homes, while others watched as their businesses were destroyed.  Compare this to the 1992 Los Angeles riots, when armed citizens were able to protect their lives, families, and property from looters and violent mobs.

An August 11 Herald Sun article reported one resident as saying, "its absolute bedlam on the street.  People have been openly looting for an hour, two hours, and the police have been ineffectual. They've done nothing."  Another victim, who was trapped in her hair salon in Clapham Junction while a mob smashed its way in and trashed it, said, "They were mocking us, [saying] 'look, look, they look scared'.  Where is the police?  I want protection.  This is what they're here for . . . I'm not secure at my workplace. I'm not secure at my home place.  Will they be there to protect us tonight?  They weren't here to protect us last night."

The Telegraph.com.au reported on Tuesday that mobs were forcing hapless victims to strip off their clothes while being robbed, and described a shocking video that shows a bleeding, already-pummeled teenager being robbed in broad daylight by lawless thugs who pretend to help him to his feet, and then steal the contents of his backpack while he can barely remain standing, much less defend himself. 

This is what a disarmed country looks like.  This is how little is left when free men and women surrender their right to own a firearm.   

One has to wonder how differently this all would be playing out if the law-abiding were allowed to arm themselves.  How different would the reports be if violent, opportunistic, amoral thugs were confronted with armed resistance from their intended victims? 

It has been said that, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."  In this case, good men and women have been stripped of their ability to do something, and evil has certainly triumphed. 

Ironically, the UK is an outspoken proponent of the United Nations' efforts to negotiate an Arms Trade Treaty.  Presumably the UK's goal in supporting an ATT is to spread the "safety and sanctity" they imagine their country as having to the rest of the world.   Perhaps the recent calamities will cause the British to rethink their position; we certainly hope so.  It's time for the British government to drop its draconian gun-control laws and restore the right of self-defense to its law-abiding citizens.

It's time to face the facts.  When law-abiding citizens are disarmed, is their society a safer one?  Do gun bans reduce violent crime?  Will the police always be there to protect you?  England's current plight is just the latest example to show us, yet again, that the answer to these questions is an emphatic "No."
 
        Copyright 2011, National Rifle Association of America, Institute for Legislative Action.
        http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Federal/Read.aspx?id=7025

                                   P.C.

G M

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What if the anti-gunners were wrong again?
« Reply #665 on: August 15, 2011, 08:48:27 AM »
http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/news/2011/aug/14/tdmain01-gun-crime-drops-at-virginia-bars-and-rest-ar-1237278/

Virginia's bars and restaurants did not turn into shooting galleries as some had feared during the first year of a new state law that allows patrons with permits to carry concealed guns into alcohol-serving businesses, a Richmond Times-Dispatch analysis found.

The number of major crimes involving firearms at bars and restaurants statewide declined 5.2 percent from July 1, 2010, to June 30, 2011, compared with the fiscal year before the law went into effect, according to crime data compiled by Virginia State Police at the newspaper's request.

And overall, the crimes that occurred during the law's first year were relatively minor, and few of the incidents appeared to involve gun owners with concealed-carry permits, the analysis found.


**Oh yes, they are!

JDN

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #666 on: August 15, 2011, 09:40:27 AM »
Speaking of Virginia...

"The law forbids concealed-gun permit holders to drink alcohol while they are inside bars and restaurants with guns hidden from view. Patrons who legally carry firearms openly into bars and restaurants can drink freely."

I think there is definite merit in issuing CCW's (I'm just jealous I can't get one in LA).

BUT, I'm not sure "drinking freely", especially at a bar and guns, whether hidden or not, go together. 

G M

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #667 on: August 15, 2011, 09:44:41 AM »
Speaking of Virginia...

"The law forbids concealed-gun permit holders to drink alcohol while they are inside bars and restaurants with guns hidden from view. Patrons who legally carry firearms openly into bars and restaurants can drink freely."

I think there is definite merit in issuing CCW's (I'm just jealous I can't get one in LA).

BUT, I'm not sure "drinking freely", especially at a bar and guns, whether hidden or not, go together. 

In most states, possessing a firearm while intoxicated is a seperate offense. It is in mine.

JDN

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #668 on: August 15, 2011, 09:51:36 AM »
I guess what I am saying is that I don't think drinking and guns go together. 

I'm in favor of CCW's, but I think whether exposed or concealed they should probably be banned from bars (over 50% of their revenue is from alcohol).

G M

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #669 on: August 15, 2011, 09:57:08 AM »
Getting drunk and guns don't go together. However if one isn't getting intoxed, there is no reason to forbid that person from carrying.

Crafty_Dog

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #670 on: August 15, 2011, 01:42:02 PM »
The question presented is a logical and fair one, but so far it appears the empirical evidence is as GM states.

Crafty_Dog

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That'll teach 'em
« Reply #671 on: August 16, 2011, 07:19:20 PM »
Pravda on the Beach reported this morning that the three officials at BATF responsible for Op F&F have been promoted, , , :cry: :x :x

prentice crawford

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #672 on: August 17, 2011, 04:54:54 AM »
Woof,
 That's no surprise, people who do what their bosses tell them to do and cover their bosses asses at the same time always move up. :-P
                    P.C.

prentice crawford

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #673 on: August 17, 2011, 12:18:42 PM »
By Richard A. Serrano, Washington Bureau
 
August 17, 2011
Reporting from Washington— Firearms from the ATF's Operation Fast and Furious weapons trafficking investigation turned up at the scenes of at least 11 violent crimes in the U.S., as well as at a Border Patrol agent's slaying in southern Arizona last year, the Justice Department has acknowledged to Congress.

The department did not provide details about the crimes. But The Times has learned that they occurred in several Arizona cities, including Phoenix, where Fast and Furious was managed, as well as in El Paso, where a total of 42 weapons from the operation were seized at two crime scenes.

The new numbers, which expand the scope of the danger the program posed to U.S. citizens over a 14-month period, are contained in a letter that Justice Department officials turned over to the Senate Judiciary Committee last month.

In the letter, obtained by The Times on Tuesday, Justice Department officials also reported that Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives officials advised them that the agency's acting director, Kenneth E. Melson, "likely became aware" of the operation as early as December 2009, a month after it began.

Melson has said he did not learn about how the operation was run until January of this year, when it was canceled.

The July 22 letter, signed by Assistant Atty. Gen. Ronald Weich, was sent to Sens. Patrick J. Leahy (D-Vt.) and Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa), the top members of the Senate Judiciary Committee. It was in response to questions posed to the Justice Department about Atty. Gen. Eric H. Holder Jr. and the weapons operation.

The program was intended to identify Mexican drug cartel leaders and smuggling routes across the border by allowing illegal purchases of firearms and tracking the weapons. Instead, many of the guns vanished.

Weich said that although the "ATF does not have complete information" on all of the lost guns, "it is our understanding that ATF is aware of 11 instances" beyond the Border Patrol agent's killing where a Fast and Furious firearm "was recovered in connection with a crime of violence in the United States."

Justice Department officials did not provide any more details about the crimes or how many guns were found.

But a source close to the controversy, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the continuing investigation, said that as early as January 2010, just after the operation began, weapons had turned up at crime scenes in Phoenix, Nogales, Douglas and Glendale in Arizona, and in El Paso. The largest haul was 40 weapons at one crime scene in El Paso.

In all, 57 of the operation's weapons were recovered at those six crime scenes, in addition to the two seized where Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was killed.

Weich's letter also said a total of 1,418 firearms were circulated under the program. How many remain missing in the U.S. and Mexico is unclear. The total is considerably lower than earlier estimates, when authorities said that at least 2,000 guns had vanished.

Melson has told congressional investigators that he learned how the program operated in the field only after it was shut down in January.

But Weich wrote that the ATF had advised Justice Department officials that Melson "likely became aware on or about Dec. 9, 2009, as part of a briefing following a seizure of weapons in Douglas, Ariz."

Weich added that the ATF told the Justice Department that although Melson was not given "regular" briefings on the program, "periodic updates were provided to the acting director as determined to be necessary by the [ATF] Office of Field Operations. These briefings typically coincided with planned field visits or in preparation for meetings."

Weich added that Holder first spoke to Melson about the operation "in or about late April" of this year, after the attorney general learned of the program and during a regular briefing.

Senior Justice Department officials have insisted they did not know about the "operational tactics" of the program, and the Weich letter reemphasized that point. Weich noted that the officials were cooperating with investigations by Congress and the Justice Department inspector general's office, which reflects "our commitment to learning the facts underlying this matter."
    Copyright © 2011, Los Angeles Times
     http://latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-atf-guns-20110817,0,7742514.story

                          P.C.

prentice crawford

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #674 on: August 17, 2011, 01:05:10 PM »
 From the ATF's website

ILLEGAL FIREARMS TRAFFICKING 5
B U R E A U O F A L C O H O L , T O B A C C O , F I R E A R M S A N D E X P L O S I V E S
STRATEGIC GOAL 1
ILLEGAL FIREARMS
TRAFFICKING
CHALLENGES AND THREATS
IN THE ILLEGAL FIREARMS
TRAFFICKING DOMAIN
 
 Firearms violence associated with drug trafficking
and violent crime continues to erode
the quality of life in many American communities.
There is widespread traffic in firearms
moving in or otherwise affecting interstate and
international commerce. States and cities
across the country seek effective programs to
reduce or eliminate violent crime by stemming
the flow of illegally trafficked firearms
into their communities.
Mexico’s drug traffickers have aggressively
turned to the United States as a source of
firearms and routinely transport firearms
from the United States into Mexico. The
U.S.-Mexican border is the principal arrival
zone for most illicit drugs smuggled into the
United States, as well as the predominant staging
area for the subsequent distribution of
drugs throughout the country. Firearms are an
integral part of these criminal enterprises. They
are the “tools of the trade” that drug traffickers
use against each other as well as against
Mexican and American law enforcement officials
and innocent civilians on both sides of
the border.
Illegal firearms trafficking via the Internet is
an emerging threat. The privacy of the Internet
makes it an ideal means for gang members,
violent criminals, terrorists, and juveniles to
traffic and obtain illegal firearms.
ATF’S ROLE IN ELIMINATING
ILLEGAL FIREARMS
TRAFFICKING
The goal of ATF’s illegal firearms trafficking
enforcement and industry regulation is to
reduce violent crime and protect national security.
We investigate and arrest individuals and
organizations who illegally supply firearms to
prohibited individuals. ATF is the Federal law
enforcement organization that regulates the
firearms industry. We deter the diversion of
firearms from lawful commerce into the illegal
market with enforcement strategies and technology.
ATF regulates and partners with the
firearms industry to promote compliance, to
prevent diversion, and to detect those criminals
that bring violence to our communities.
 

  I don't think the guys running the Fast and Furious operation read that last part carefully enough. :-P

                                P.C.

prentice crawford

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #675 on: August 17, 2011, 01:18:19 PM »
 More from the ATF site

 APPENDIX A: POLICY ENVIRONMENT 43
B U R E A U O F A L C O H O L , T O B A C C O , F I R E A R M S A N D E X P L O S I V E S
APPENDIX A:
POLICY ENVIRONMENT
ATF’s operations are guided by Federal
statutes, the Code of Federal Regulations, formal
memoranda of understanding, international
partnerships, and policy guidance.
Federal statutes, such as the GCA, the NFA,
the Arms Export Control Act, and sections of
the Organized Crime Control Act of 1970
(including the Safe Explosives Act) govern
ATF’s critical mission activities. ATF enforces
these statutes and regulations with a multidisciplined
and balanced approach, in accordance
with guidance issued by DOJ.[/
b]In accordance with Presidential Directives,[/b]ATF will continue to play a key role in shaping
the national response to domestic incidents
and coordinating efforts with partners
to ensure safety for all Americans.

 Who's calling the shots?

                              P.C.

Crafty_Dog

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As the gun cycles; more Fast & Furious
« Reply #676 on: August 30, 2011, 03:11:37 PM »


Acting Director Melson and the AZ US Attorney are out:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...urious-uproar/


Quote:
Acting ATF Director Kenneth Melson has been reassigned to a lesser post in the Justice Department and the U.S. attorney for Arizona was also pushed out Tuesday as fallout from Operation Fast and Furious reached new heights.

Melson's step down from his role as head of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to the position of senior adviser on forensic science in the Department of Justice's Office of Legal Programs is effective by close of business Tuesday, administration officials announced. U.S. Attorney for the District of Minnesota B. Todd Jones will replace Melson.

U.S. Attorney for Arizona Dennis Burke, one of the officials closely tied to Fast and Furious, is also a casualty in a shakeup tied to the botched gun-running program. Burke was on the hot seat last week with congressional investigators and, according to several sources, got physically sick during questioning and could not finish his session.

The purge of those responsible for the firearms trafficking scandal continued as new documents reveal a deeper involvement of federal agencies beyond ATF.

In Phoenix, Assistant U.S. Attorney Emory Hurley, who oversaw Fast and Furious on a day-to-day basis, was reassigned from the criminal to civil division. Also in Phoenix, three out of the four whistleblowers involved in the case have been reassigned to new positions outside Arizona. Two are headed to Florida, one to South Carolina.

Hurley's reassignment came after three ATF supervisors responsible for the operation were promoted. William G. McMahon, a former deputy director of operations, took over the Office of Professional Responsibility. Field supervisors William D. Newell and David Voth also moved up despite heavy criticism.

The moves follow a series of reports by Fox News detailing the face-off between Attorney General Eric Holder, Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., and Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, whose investigators have recently broadened their probe. It now reportedly shows a deeper involvement of the FBI, Drug Enforcement Administration and the Department of Homeland Security.

"While the reckless disregard for safety that took place in Operation Fast and Furious certainly merits changes within the Department of Justice, the Oversight and Government Reform Committee will continue its investigation to ensure that blame isn't off-loaded on just a few individuals for a matter that involved much higher levels of the Justice Department," Issa, chairman of the House panel.

"There are still many questions to be answered about what happened in Operation Fast and Furious and who else bears responsibility, but these changes are warranted. ... I also remain very concerned by Acting Director Melson's statement that the Department of Justice is managing its response in a manner intended to protect its political appointees," Issa continued.

Operation Fast and Furious, a program designed to track illegal gun sales, turned into an embarrassing scandal after weapons linked to it were found at the scene of a U.S. Border Patrol agent's murder last year. Thousands of guns ended up in the hands of Mexican cartel members.

Melson has led the agency since April 2009, supplanting a Bush administration acting director who was also unable to get Senate confirmation over the objections of gun rights groups. It was during his tenure that the ATF Phoenix office began Operation Fast and Furious in the fall of 2009.

According to the Justice Department, Jones will take over ATF in place of Melson beginning Wednesday, and will continue to serve as a U.S. attorney. A permanent replacement at ATF would need to be confirmed by the U.S. Senate.

"As a seasoned prosecutor and former military judge advocate, U.S. Attorney Jones is a demonstrated leader who brings a wealth of experience to this position," Holder said. "I have great confidence that he will be a strong and steady influence guiding ATF in fulfilling its mission of combating violent crime by enforcing federal criminal laws and regulations in the firearms and explosives industries."

Without mentioning either Melson or Burke's role in the Fast and Furious fiasco, Holder also praised the two for their "dedication" and "commitment" to the Department of Justice.

Fox News' Laura Prabucki contributed to this report.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...#ixzz1WXO8ysDW 

G M

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Re: As the gun cycles; more Fast & Furious
« Reply #677 on: August 30, 2011, 04:48:51 PM »
Monday Night Massacre?



Imagine the media firestorm if a republican did it, episode # 12899765

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prentice crawford

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #679 on: August 31, 2011, 10:44:01 AM »
 Post 1
 Cover Up - The Fast and Furious Edition
By Michelle Malkin August 31, 2011 6:30 am           Text Size: A A A There are now enough Operation Fast and Furious officials playing hide-and-seek in the Obama administration to fill a "rubber room."

That's the nickname for taxpayer-subsidized holding pens, such as the ones in the New York City public schools, where crooked employees are separated from the system and paid to do nothing. Perhaps the White House can stimulate a few construction jobs by adding an entire rubber room annex for "reassigned" scandal bureaucrats at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. It's getting mighty crowded.

On Tuesday, the Justice Department announced it was shuffling Kenneth Melson, acting director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, out of his job. The disclosure comes amid continued GOP investigations into the administration's fatally botched straw gun purchase racket at the border and spreading outrage over legal obstructionism and whistleblower retaliation by DOJ brass. The DOJ inspector general is also conducting a probe.

Internal documents earlier showed that Melson was intimately involved in overseeing the program and screened undercover videos of thousands of straw purchases of AK-47s and other high-powered rifles -- many of which ended up in the hands of Mexican drug cartel thugs, including those who murdered Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry last December. Fast and Furious weapons have been tied to at least a dozen violent crimes in America and untold bloody havoc in Mexico.

In secret July 4 testimony, Melson revealed he was "sick to his stomach" when he discovered the extent of the operation's deadly lapses. Join the club, pal.

Melson told congressional investigators that he and ATF's senior leadership "moved to reassign every manager involved in Fast and Furious, from the deputy assistant director for field operations down to the group supervisor" after ATF whistleblowers went to the press and Capitol. But according to Melson, he and company were ordered by Justice Department higher-ups to remain silent about the reasons for the reassignments.

In other words: the ATF managers in the know were "effectively muzzled while the DOJ sent over false denials and buried its head in the sand," as GOP Rep. Darrell Issa, chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, and Sen. Charles Grassley, the ranking member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, concluded in July.

Melson has been kicked back to DOJ's main office in a flabbergasting new slot as "senior adviser on forensic science in the department's Office of Legal Policy." He may have been "sick to his stomach," but the federal careerist apparently has no intention of quitting an administration with blood on its hands. And now he'll be advising others on how to track and handle evidence. Nice make-work if you can get it.

Others on the Fast and Furious dance card of lemons:

-- Assistant U.S. Attorney Emory Hurley in Phoenix, who helped oversee the straw gun purchase disaster. He's being transferred out of the U.S. Attorney's Office's criminal division and into the civil division.

-- Assistant ATF Special Agents in Charge George Gillett and Jim Needles. Moved to other positions.

-- BATF deputy director of operations in the West, William McMahon. Promoted to ATF headquarters.

-- ATF Phoenix field supervisors William Newell and David Voth. Promoted to new management positions in Washington.

Keep your friends close and your henchmen on the verge of spilling all the beans closer.

There's been only one visible Fast and Furious resignation: U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke in Phoenix, who quietly stepped down on Tuesday. One of his last acts? Opposing the request of murdered Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry's family to qualify as crime victims in a court case against the thug who bought the Fast and Furious guns used in Terry's murder.

The fish rots from the head down, of course. DOJ is run by Eric Holder, the Beltway swamp creature who won bipartisan approval for his nomination -- even after putting political interests ahead of security interests at the Clinton Justice Department in both the Marc Rich pardon scandal and the Puerto Rican FALN terrorist debacle. Remember: Holder won over the Senate by arguing that his poor judgment made him more qualified for the job.

Screw up, move up, cover up: It's the Holder way, the Obama way, the Washington way. And innocent Americans pay.

---

Michelle Malkin is the author of "Culture of Corruption: Obama and his Team of Tax Cheats, Crooks & Cronies" (Regnery 2010).

COPYRIGHT 2011 CREATORS.COM

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« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 10:47:28 AM by prentice crawford »

prentice crawford

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #680 on: August 31, 2011, 10:46:24 AM »
Post 2
  U.S. Attorney for Arizona Dennis Burke resigns
103 commentsby Robert Anglen - Aug. 31, 2011 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic

 
Seven months after controversy erupted over a botched federal gun-running probe, a major shake-up hit Justice Department offices Tuesday that included the resignation of Arizona U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke.

The departure of Burke and the reassignments of two others who oversaw Operation Fast and Furious, however, were cast as voluntary rather than disciplinary by the U.S. Department of Justice. The department has been under fire since January as congressional committees investigate the gun-trafficking probe, which put hundreds of weapons in the hands of Mexican drug cartels.

 Roberts: Burke a 'fall guy' |  Resignation letter | Prosecutor assumes interim post

Lawmakers leading those investigations raised questions about whether the Obama administration made scapegoats of the three officials. They vowed to continue probing who authorized agents with the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to step aside as guns purchased in Valley stores were given to smugglers.

"The Oversight and Government Reform Committee will continue its investigation to ensure that blame isn't offloaded on just a few individuals for a matter that involved much higher levels of the Justice Department," said Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., the committee's chairman. "There are still many questions to be answered about what happened in Operation Fast and Furious and who else bears responsibility."

Burke announced that his resignation would be effective immediately because "it is the right time to move on to pursue other aspects of my career and my life and allow the office to move ahead."

His resignation came two weeks after he ended his testimony about Fast and Furious before Issa's committee.

Excerpts of Burke's testimony released by Rep. Elijah Cummings, D-Md., the ranking committee member, show that Burke took responsibility for mistakes.

"I get to stand up when we have a great case to announce and take all the credit for it regardless of how much work I did on it," Burke said. "So, when our office makes mistakes, I need to take responsibility, and this is a case, as reflected by the work of this investigation, it should not have been done the way it was done, and I want to take responsibility for that, and I'm not falling on a sword or trying to cover for anyone else."

Burke said he was unaware agents were watching people buy guns and not interdicting the purchases.Minutes before Burke sent an e-mail to his staff announcing his resignation, the Justice Department announced that a new acting director - Todd Jones, U.S. attorney in Minnesota - would take over operation of the ATF. Former acting ATF Director Ken Melson was assigned to the Office of Legal Policy as an adviser on forensic science.

The lead prosecutor for Operation Fast and Furious cases in Burke's office was also reassigned Tuesday. Assistant U.S. Attorney Emory Hurley was transferred to the civil division in Arizona at his own request, a spokeswoman for Arizona U.S. Attorney's Office said.

Issa's office said Burke's resignation does not excuse him from his promise of future testimony.

"The committee still expects him to honor his commitment," committee spokesman Frederick Hill said.

Burke, who took office in 2009, could not be reached for comment. His first assistant prosecutor, Ann Scheel, will serve as acting U.S. attorney for Arizona until a permanent replacement is named.

Questions about Fast and Furious began to emerge in January as members of Congress began pressing ATF officials for answers about the operation. The probe was designed to track small-time gun buyers until the guns reached the hands of major weapons traffickers along the southwestern border.

Instead, ATF agents ended up arresting low-level suspects, and about 1,800 of the weapons were unaccounted for, with nearly two-thirds of those guns likely in Mexico, according to testimony that ATF agents gave to a House committee in June.

Agents also confirmed that two of the weapons connected to the ATF operations were found at the scene of a December gunbattle near Rio Rico that left Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry dead. Terry's murder effectively ended the operation.

On Tuesday, an attorney representing Terry's parents said Burke's resignation does not help answer questions about the gun-trafficking case.

"I don't know that it moves us forward," Phoenix lawyer Patrick McGorder said. "The motivation behind the moves today leaves us with more questions than answers."

McGorder said the family still does not understand the genesis of the operation and who controlled it.

In a news conference with the ATF in January, Burke announced that 700 weapons were seized and 34 people were charged with smuggling guns to Mexico as part of Operation Fast and Furious.

Patrick Cunningham, chief of the criminal division for the Arizona U.S. Attorney's Office, who supervised Fast and Furious prosecutions, denied in a recent interview that his office knowingly allowed guns to cross the border.

Cunningham said agents with the ATF, who took the lead in day-to-day operations, repeatedly assured his staff that guns were not being allowed to go to Mexico.

Moreover, Cunningham said, his office gave agents a green light to seize guns every time they requested permission, save one, where it was determined by agents and prosecutors that agents lacked probable cause.

In his letter of resignation to President Barack Obama, Burke made no mention of Fast and Furious.

"My office has made considerable progress during my tenure in prosecuting cases in the areas of border security/immigration, Indian country and white-collar fraud as well as the creation of the first civil-rights unit in the district (of Arizona). We have made unprecedented gains in so many areas," Burke wrote.

U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder praised Burke's leadership and said his office handled many crucial issues, including the Jan. 8 shooting of U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and 18 others.

"I am grateful to Dennis for his dedication and service to the Department of Justice over these many years and commend his decision to place the interests of the U.S. Attorney's Office above all else," Holder said in a written statement.

Former state Attorney General Grant Woods said Burke was an exemplary U.S. attorney.

"I think Dennis has had more on his plate in two years than anyone that I can ever remember who assumed a top prosecutorial post," Woods said. "If you go in with nothing unusual, you have a full plate. Then, you add to that the (Jared) Loughner case, the county-corruption case, the Fast and Furious controversy, all of the border issues and border cases that they've pursued, it's been pretty amazing - like nothing I've ever seen."

Woods said Burke has "done an excellent job, and I think he probably welcomes the chance to take a breather."

Former Arizona Sen. Dennis DeConcini said that if the resignation is tied to Fast and Furious, it would be a misguided effort to lay blame on Burke. "If his resignation is tied to Fast and Furious, it's ridiculous. It would be absolutely outrageous for 'Justice Main' to take it out on Dennis and make him the fall guy," DeConcini said. "It's just typical Washington cronyism. It just shows you how incompetent government can be to save themselves. It appears they screwed up, based on congressional hearings."

Issa and Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, ranking minority member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, have pressed the ATF for months to disclose details of Operation Fast and Furious and to justify a policy that allowed weapons into Mexico.

Last month, William McMahon, who has since been reassigned as head of the ATF's Western region, testified that the agency had good intentions when it launched Operation Fast and Furious in 2009. But there are things the ATF would have done differently, he said.

Appearing before the House Oversight Committee, McMahon said that he was committed to dismantling criminal networks on both sides of the border and that "in our zeal to do so, and in the heat of battle, mistakes were made. And for that I apologize."

Arizona Congressman Paul Gosar, who sits on the House Oversight Committee, said in a statement Tuesday that the personnel shake-ups are "small steps."

"I must not rest until the American people are informed about who authorized the program, who allowed it to continue despite grave misgivings on the part of dedicated ATF agents," Gosar said, adding that he also wants to know "who is responsible for the lack of transparency."

Republic reporters Yvonne Wingett-Sanchez and JJ Hensley contributed to this

                                        P.C.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 10:47:55 AM by prentice crawford »

G M

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Follow the email trail......
« Reply #681 on: September 02, 2011, 12:14:40 PM »
http://hotair.com/archives/2011/09/02/fast-and-furious-e-mails-reached-at-least-three-white-house-officials/

Fast and Furious e-mails reached at least three White House officials

 

posted at 2:05 pm on September 2, 2011 by Tina Korbe

 
New e-mails obtained yesterday by The Los Angeles Times show at least three national security officials received information about Operation Fast and Furious. An anonymous administration official says these e-mails don’t prove anyone in the White House knew about the covert “investigative tactics” used in the program — but they do show William Newell, then the ATF field supervisor for Arizona and New Mexico, was in close contact with Kevin O’Reilly, director of North American affairs for the White House national security staff, between July 2010 and February of this year.
 
In fact, Newell sought the White House’s help to persuade the Mexican government to let ATF agents recover U.S. guns across the border, and O’Reilly on several occasions sounded out Newell to see how efforts to combat gun trafficking in Arizona were going. In response to O’Reilly’s requests, Newell praised ATF agents’ work on “firearms trafficking investigations with direct links to Mexican” cartels.
 
O’Reilly forwarded the information Newell provided to two other officials – Dan Restrepo, the president’s senior Latin American advisor, and Greg Gatjanis, a White House national security official. But O’Reilly reassured Newell the information “would not leave NSS.” Newell answered, “Sure, just don’t want ATF HQ to find out, especially since this is what they should be doing (briefing you)!”
 
Evidence of another kind of cover-up in the scandal has surfaced, too. Late last night, Sen. Chuck Grassley’s office revealed 21 Fast and Furious guns have been found at violent crime scenes in Mexico. Previously, we knew 11 guns had been found at violent crime scenes in the U.S., but ATF now says that number was inflated. The downward revision on the number of recoveries in the U.S. is scarcely comforting in light of the larger number of recoveries in Mexico, though.
 
As Grassley put it in a statement yesterday, “The Justice Department has been less than forthcoming since day one, so the revisions here are hardly surprising, and the numbers will likely rise until the more than 1,000 guns that were allowed to fall into the hands of bad guys are recovered — most likely years down the road. … What we’re still waiting for are the answers to the other questions the Attorney General failed to answer per our agreement. The cooperation of the Attorney General and his staff is needed if we’re ever going to get to the bottom of this disastrous policy and help the ATF and the department move forward.”
 
Yep. Still waiting … and now we’re waiting for a more satisfactory answer of the significance of the White House e-mails, too.

prentice crawford

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #682 on: September 03, 2011, 05:56:42 PM »
  
Heads Roll In Wake of BATFE “Fast and Furious” Scandal
  
Friday, September 02, 2011
  
In the latest development in the on-going Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) “Fast and Furious” scandal, the Department of Justice announced this week the appointment of U.S. Attorney for the District of Minnesota B. Todd Jones to serve as Acting Director of BATFE, replacing Kenneth Melson.  The DOJ also announced that Dennis Burke, U.S. attorney for the district of Arizona, has resigned.  And the Wall Street Journal reported that Emory Hurley, the assistant U.S. attorney responsible for the day-to-day operations of “Fast and Furious,” has been removed from his post and reassigned to the department’s Civil Division.

As we have frequently noted in this Alert, the reckless and utterly failed BATFE operation known as “Operation Fast And Furious” was run out of the BATFE’s field office in Phoenix.  The bungled operation put thousands of guns into the hands of violent criminals in Mexico.

The more information comes out about “Fast and Furious,” the more clear it seems that knowledge of the operation, and approval for it, went higher than the Phoenix field office, or even BATFE.  There is clear evidence, uncovered by the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee headed by Chairman Darrell Issa (R-Calif.), that senior Obama Administration officials were aware of this disastrous operation.  And as the evidence continues to mount, it’s looking more and more likely that what we’re seeing unfold is a large-scale cover-up.  

A Thursday Fox News story reported that federal officials quickly tried to cover up evidence that a gun found at the scene of Border Patrol agent Brian Terry’s murder was one the government intentionally helped sell to the Mexican cartels via the “Fast and Furious” program.  The article also reported that late Thursday, the office of Senator Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa), ranking member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, revealed that 21 more “Fast and Furious” guns have been found at violent crime scenes in Mexico, up from 11 the agency admitted to just last month.  According to the article, Sen. Grassley and Rep. Issa said Thursday they are expanding their investigation into the scandal, and have sent a strongly worded letter to Anne Scheel, the new U.S. attorney for Arizona, requesting interviews, e-mails, memos and even hand-written notes from members of the U.S. Attorney's office that played key roles in the failed program.  

Regarding this week’s shake-up, Rep. Issa released the following statement:  "While the reckless disregard for safety that took place in Operation Fast and Furious certainly merits changes within the Department of Justice, the Oversight and Government Reform Committee will continue its investigation to ensure that blame isn't offloaded on just a few individuals for a matter that involved much higher levels of the Justice Department. There are still many questions to be answered about what happened in Operation Fast and Furious and who else bears responsibility, but these changes are warranted and offer an opportunity for the Justice Department to explain the role other officials and offices played in the infamous efforts to allow weapons to flow to Mexican drug cartels. I also remain very concerned by Acting Director Melson's statement that the Department of Justice is managing its response in a manner intended to protect its political appointees. Senator Grassley and I will continue to press the Department of Justice for answers in order to ensure that a reckless effort like Fast and Furious does not take place again."

Sen. Grassley released this statement:  "[This week’s] announcement is an admission by the Obama administration that serious mistakes were made in Operation Fast and Furious, and is a step in the right direction that they are continuing to limit any further damage that people involved in this disastrous strategy can do.  There's a lot of blame to go around. As our investigation moves forward, and we get to the bottom of this policy, I wouldn't be surprised to see more fall out beyond the resignations and new assignments announced today.  The Justice Department and the ATF have yet to answer a majority of the questions and still must produce many of the documents Congressman Issa and I have asked for. We're looking for a full accounting from the Justice Department as to who knew what and when, so we can be sure that this ill-advised strategy never happens again."

And House Judiciary Committee Chairman Lamar Smith (R-Texas) said:  "The announcement by the Department of Justice to reassign Kenneth Melson is not the resolution Congress and the American people need. This move by the Administration indicates that Director Melson may be being used as a scapegoat for a much larger problem within ATF and DOJ. It appears that other senior officials at DOJ may have been involved in this deadly operation. The American people and Congress will not be appeased until we have the whole truth about how and why Operation Fast and Furious was authorized. Congress will not ignore an agency so out of control that its decisions and operations cost American lives."

Meanwhile, Attorney General Eric Holder has insisted that he knew absolutely nothing about “Fast and Furious.”  As the investigation continues, hopefully we’ll find out if that unlikely insistence is the truth.
                                     P.C.

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #683 on: September 03, 2011, 06:04:11 PM »
Frankly I think they should be fired; what's with this resigned and reassigned stuff.

G M

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #684 on: September 03, 2011, 06:15:26 PM »
Frankly I think they should be fired; what's with this resigned and reassigned stuff.

Because those above them want to keep them quiet. If they were fired, they wouldn't have any control over them anymore.

JDN

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #685 on: September 03, 2011, 06:48:20 PM »
Probably true....    :-(

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #686 on: September 03, 2011, 07:19:47 PM »
We also need to remember that, as reported here, F&F is but one operation and that there were others of similar characteristics.

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ATF at it again
« Reply #687 on: September 06, 2011, 06:48:38 PM »
Exclusive Report: Documents indicate ATF, FBI allowed Indiana ‘crime gun’ sales


The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has acknowledged an Indiana dealer’s cooperation in conducting straw purchases at the direction of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Exclusive documents obtained by Gun Rights Examiner show the dealer cooperated with ATF by selling guns to straw purchasers, and that bureau management later asserted these guns were being traced to crimes.

From the confidential source providing the documents:

The dealer…was sent a "demand letter," based on the number of traces to him, which was retracted after his attorney pointed out they resulted from his cooperation with ATF. (Strangely, he got two voicemails from two different ATF people, both saying they were the head of the tracing operation).

Some of the straw men turned out to have felony convictions, the agents called the FBI background check system and fixed it so the transactions would be approved, something which may also have happened in Phoenix. (The attorney wasn't clear as to whether the guns were actually delivered to the gangs).

If the guns did not make it to criminal end users, why the demand for the reporting requirement was made remains unexplained: A demand letter, dated February 14, 2011 and signed by Charles J. Houser, Chief, National Tracing Center Division, informed the dealer he was required to provide acquisition and disposition information on firearms obtained from non-licensees, as well as to provide quarterly reports, based on ATF’s assessment that the dealer “had an unusually high number of traces of new crime guns with a relatively short ‘time-to-crime’…”

In a response dated March 10, 2011, attorney Brent R. Weil of Kightlinger and Gray, LLP, informed Houser:

Specifically, my client participated with and cooperated in certain law enforcement operations during 2009/2010 at the behest of ATFE enforcement officers from the Evansville, Indiana office (Agent Kevin Whittaker) and in the course of doing so, followed their instructions regarding the completion of certain transactions and the delivery of firearms to purchasers who did not clear the standard NICS [National Instant Check System] background check and were suspected of being involved in the purchase and transportation of handguns out of state despite passing NICS’s background checks.

In order to verify ATF claims, Weil requested they “be given a list of the ‘ten or more crime guns with a “time-to-crime: of three years or less’ so that we can satisfy ourselves that we are not being improperly included in this program because of our cooperation with and/or involvement with ATFE enforcement activities.”

The response letter resulted in a voice mail from Houser to Weil on March 15, 2011, ignoring his request for the list of guns, but promising:

If…that count is composed of firearms that were, where your client was working in conjunction with ATF, we will get your client removed entirely from the program.”

That same day, another voice mail was received, this time from Brenda Bennett, also identifying herself as “Chief of the National Tracing Center,” who informed Weil:

I have verified the information in the letter. I talked to law enforcement and they confirmed what he had to say. Therefore, he is being removed from the demand list.

See the sidebar slideshow accompanying this article for screen captures of all documents referred to in this column. At the very least, as with “Project Gunwalker,” they indicate straw purchased guns ended up in crime traces, something those directing surveillance were well aware of. It also indicates the FBI and ATF were once again involved with allowing transactions rejected by NICS to proceed, indicating this practice could be more widespread than has been previously documented, and not confined to Southwest border operations.

It’s fair to ask at this point what Robert J. Browning knows about this. He’s the Special Agent In Charge (SAC) of the Columbus Field Division, which directs Indiana and Ohio field offices. Also worth questioning: Joseph H. Hogsett, United States Attorney for the Southern District of Indiana, specifically about what he has directed and approved that has any bearing on “crime guns” making their way to the street following law enforcement firearm transfer approvals to straw purchasers within his jurisdicition.

It’s also fair to ask if it seems credible that such similar operations would develop independently in the Southwest (“Project Gunwalker”) and the Midwest (“Project Gangwalker’?), without authorization from and oversight coordination by Main Justice.

Mike Vanderboegh of Sipsey Street Irregulars has advocated opening “a second front” to complement House Oversight Committee investigations, and this column has been a consistent advocate for appointment of a truly independent special investigator, as well as for individual state attorneys general determining if multiple felony violations of their state laws, committed jointly by two or more persons, have been perpetrated. What seems clear is none of this will happen unless gun owners create such an uproar that their demands cannot be ignored—by timid political wind riders who don’t wish to get involved, by an arrogant, stonewalling administration, and by their protectors/abettors in the mainstream press. 

Crafty_Dog

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Another one! Project Grenade Walker?!?
« Reply #688 on: September 06, 2011, 06:55:37 PM »
GM, anyone:

Michelle Malkin:
Fast and Furious update: And now…Project Grenadewalker?!


The truth is still seeping out, despite Team Obama’s best efforts to cover up and shut up the Fast and Furious whistle-blowers.

Last week, we noted the latest evidence that the scandal went straight to the top and chronicled the desperate dance of the lemons. In discussing the quiet resignation of U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke in Phoenix, I talked with NRA News’s Cam Edwards about Burke’s transparent attempt at liability avoidance.

Today, the WSJ spotlights the Phoenix USAO’s botched handling of an Arizona man accused of supplying grenades to a Mexican drug cartel. Business Insider provides a closer look (h/t William Amos):


Quote:
The WSJ reports today that federal authorities are now investigating why the U.S. Attorney’s office in Phoenix — the same office that oversaw Fast and Furious — released Jean Baptiste Kingery after he confessed to providing military-style weapons to the now-defunct La Familia Michoacana drug cartel.

Kingery, who was arrested and released in June 2010, confessed to manufacturing improvised explosive devices (IEDs) using grenade components from the U.S. He also admitted to helping the cartel convert semi-automatic rifles into machine guns. Mexican criminal organizations are increasingly using these military-style weapons as the cartels’ escalate their wars against the government and one another.

Despite Kingery’s confession, and over loud protestations from the arresting ATF officers, the U.S. Attorney’s office let Kingery go within hours of his arrest.

Kingery’s release is now the subject of an internal probe by the DOJ inspector general. The findings in the DOJ probe were a major catalyst in the recent staff shakeup that ousted Arizona U.S. Attorney Dennie Burke and Acting ATF Director Kenneth Melson from their posts.

The Phoenix U.S. Attorney’s office denies that it declined to prosecute the case, saying that it wanted to continue surveillance. The office alternatively told investigators that ATF agents wanted to make Kingery an informant, but lost contact with him within weeks of his release.

…The Congressional Oversight Committee has also expanded its Fast and Furious investigation to include the Kingery case. The Committee is investigating who in the Obama administration knew about the gunrunning program, under which ATF agents allowed more than 2,000 guns to “walk” across the border. 

On a related note, Kathleen Millar focuses on the State Department and poses provocative questions about F&F and the Arms Export Control act, which brought down the architects of Iran-Contra during the Reagan years:


Quote:
The Arms Export Control Act prohibits US arms merchants and defense manufacturers from selling lethal weapons and sensitive or dual-use technology to people who may want to use those weapons and technology to fire back at US citizens—at the military, law enforcement agents, and more and more often, a lot of just plain Americans who routinely miss those signs 80 miles inland on the US side of the Mexico-Arizona border warning tourists to go no further–Mexican gunmen on the prowl.

US weapons cannot be sold and shipped to countries that support terrorism, or nations, states, groups, or other entities deemed unfriendly to the United States.

I’d say Mexican cartels, especially the violent assassination squads that comprise Los Zetas, fall into that category, wouldn’t you?

Even more importantly, the Arms Export Control Act is, in fact, a servant to Article Three of the United States Constitution, which defines the act of selling weapons to those who would ‘levy war against the United States’ or ‘giving aid and comfort to our enemies’ as treason. No kidding. Treason.

If a US law enforcement agency wants to involve itself in the sale of weapons purchased from US gun dealers for export purposes–sales that may be part of an legitimate enforcement or military operation–that agency, let’s say ATF, must apply to the State Department for an exemption from the licensing requirements normally imposed on the commercial sale and export of such weapons. If an enforcement agency or military entity intent on running a covert op involving the export of lethal weapons does not obtain the necessary exemptions from State, for–listen carefully–each weapon or bundle of weapons purchased, that agency or military purchaser has committed a crime. Consider. ATF sent more than 1700 weapons across the border into Mexico–that could translate into 1700+ violations of the Arms Export Control Act.

…Forced resignations, diversionary political rationales, debates about the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law—none of this speaks to the central question. Did ATF, under advisement of its political administrators, break the laws of the United States of America? 

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Re: Another one! Project Grenade Walker?!?
« Reply #689 on: September 06, 2011, 07:15:52 PM »



Quote:
The WSJ reports today that federal authorities are now investigating why the U.S. Attorney’s office in Phoenix — the same office that oversaw Fast and Furious — released Jean Baptiste Kingery after he confessed to providing military-style weapons to the now-defunct La Familia Michoacana drug cartel.

Kingery, who was arrested and released in June 2010, confessed to manufacturing improvised explosive devices (IEDs) using grenade components from the U.S. He also admitted to helping the cartel convert semi-automatic rifles into machine guns. Mexican criminal organizations are increasingly using these military-style weapons as the cartels’ escalate their wars against the government and one another.

Despite Kingery’s confession, and over loud protestations from the arresting ATF officers, the U.S. Attorney’s office let Kingery go within hours of his arrest.

Kingery’s release is now the subject of an internal probe by the DOJ inspector general. The findings in the DOJ probe were a major catalyst in the recent staff shakeup that ousted Arizona U.S. Attorney Dennie Burke and Acting ATF Director Kenneth Melson from their posts.

The Phoenix U.S. Attorney’s office denies that it declined to prosecute the case, saying that it wanted to continue surveillance. The office alternatively told investigators that ATF agents wanted to make Kingery an informant, but lost contact with him within weeks of his release.


This does not pass the smell test. If you arrest someone and want to flip them, you don't drop charges and let them get "into the wind". Let's see, let's give the media his name and the fact that he gave a confession to the feds, so the cartels he did business with know he's a snitch. Either he goes to ground very, very deep, or his body parts might be found on one side of the border or another. Either way, the odds of him appearing alive before a congressional body are smaller than Joe Biden getting into Mensa.

Crafty_Dog

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #690 on: September 07, 2011, 07:10:52 AM »
So, please spell it out.  What do you think is going on here?

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #691 on: September 07, 2011, 07:46:16 AM »
People in the DOJ don't want him under oath in front of Darrell Issa?

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Operation Gangwalker?
« Reply #692 on: September 08, 2011, 07:15:57 AM »

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/09/07/gunwalker-goes-to-the-hoosier-state/

Gunwalker goes to the Hoosier State
 


posted at 10:05 am on September 7, 2011 by Jazz Shaw

 
Old and busted: Gunwalker
 New hotness: Gangwalker?
 
At Pajamas Media, Bob Owens stays on on the trail of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives who, apparently in concert with the FBI, have gotten the White House in some serious hot water. Having already explored the disastrous experiment known as Operation Fast and Furious, we now learn that it may have a kissing cousin out in Indiana. From the Washington Examiner:
 

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has acknowledged an Indiana dealer’s cooperation in conducting straw purchases at the direction of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Exclusive documents obtained by Gun Rights Examiner show the dealer cooperated with ATF by selling guns to straw purchasers, and that bureau management later asserted these guns were being traced to crimes.
 
It’s a long, detailed report with chilling similarities to the original Gunwalker scandal. The federal government essentially provides cover for straw purchasers to take delivery of weapons without interference from state or local officials. The weapons then wind up at crime scenes, having been used for all manner of mayhem. The difference in this case is that, rather than heading out of the country to Mexican drug cartels, they go to American organized crime gangs. Retaliation against a whistle-blower follows in short order.
 
Bob Owens sees a pattern in the government incompetence.
 

There was never any mechanism within Fast and Furious to intercept the thousands of Gunwalker weapons once they left the gun shops, and the multi-agency team (DOJ, ATF, FBI, DEA, IRS, DHS) acted as nothing more or less than a shield to prevent straw purchasers and smugglers from being intercepted by local or state law enforcement.
 
The apparent purpose of the operation was to lend the thinnest veneer of truth to the 90-percent lie spread by Barack Obama, Eric Holder, and Hillary Clinton from the very beginning of the Obama administration. It makes sense only as a plot to manufacture evidence for the punitive gun control laws that Obama has championed his entire political career. Indeed, even after Gunwalker was exposed, the number of U.S. guns in Mexico, many of which were put there by the actions of the government itself, was still brazenly used as the excuse for ATF long gun reporting requirements currently being challenged in courts.
 
Likewise, what Codrea has dubbed as “Gangwalker” appears to be another attempt to provide guns to criminals in order to generate more gun crime and then more calls for gun control.
 
The biggest difference between the two operations at this early date only seems to be that Gangwalker is a purposeful attempt to create the deaths of American citizens in order to pursue the administration’s fanatical anti-gun agenda.
 
So was it just stunning stupidity and incompetence spread across multiple offices of two different agencies, or is there some hidden agenda at work. I’ll leave that speculation to the reader, but it’s certainly food for thought. The real loser in all of this – after those killed or injured in the ensuing criminal activity, of course – is the American gun owner and proponent of second amendment rights. But by exposing these operations before we see new gun control measures popping up in Congress we may be staunching the wound before it fully breaks open.

Crafty_Dog

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Apparently a third gun at the scene of BP Terry's murder was covered up
« Reply #693 on: September 09, 2011, 12:18:44 PM »


EXCLUSIVE: Third Gun Linked to 'Fast and Furious' Identified at Border Agent's Murder

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A third gun linked to "Operation Fast and Furious" was found at the murder scene of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry, new documents obtained exclusively by Fox News suggest, contradicting earlier assertions by federal agencies that police found only two weapons tied to the federal government's now infamous gun interdiction scandal.

Sources say emails support their contention that the FBI concealed evidence to protect a confidential informant. Sources close to the Terry case say the FBI informant works inside a major Mexican cartel and provided the money to obtain the weapons used to kill Terry.

Unlike the two AK-style assault weapons found at the scene, the third weapon could more easily be linked to the informant. To prevent that from happening, sources say, the third gun "disappeared."

In addition to the emails obtained by Fox News, an audio recording from a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agent investigating the Terry case seems to confirm the existence of a third weapon. In that conversation, the agent refers to an "SKS assault rifle out of Texas" found at the Terry murder scene south of Tucson.

The FBI refused to answer a detailed set of questions submitted to officials by Fox News. Instead, agency spokesman Paul Bresson said, "The Brian Terry investigation is still ongoing so I cannot comment." Bresson referred Fox News to court records that only identify the two possible murder weapons.

However, in the hours after Terry was killed on Dec. 14, 2010, several emails written to top ATF officials suggest otherwise.
In one, an intelligence analyst writes that by 7:45 p.m. -- about 21 hours after the shooting -- she had successfully traced two weapons at the scene, and is now "researching the trace status of firearms recovered earlier today by the FBI."
In another email, deputy ATF-Phoenix director George Gillett asks: "Are those two (AK-47s) in addition to the gun already recovered this morning?"

The two AK-type assault rifles were purchased by Jaime Avila from the Lone Wolf Trading Co. outside of Phoenix on Jan. 16, 2010. Avila was recruited by his roommate Uriel Patino. Patino, according to sources, received $70,000 in "seed money" from the FBI informant late in 2009 to buy guns for the cartel.

According to a memo from Assistant U.S. Attorney Emory Hurley, who oversaw the operation, Avila began purchasing firearms in November 2009, shortly after Patino, who ultimately purchased more than 600 guns and became the largest buyer of guns in Operation Fast and Furious.

Months ago, congressional investigators developed information that both the FBI and DEA not only knew about the failed gun operation, but that they may be complicit in it. House Government Reform and Oversight Committee Chairman Darrell Issa, R-Calif., and Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, fired off letters in July requesting specific details from FBI director Robert Mueller and Drug Enforcement Administration chief Michele Leonhart.

"In recent weeks, we have learned of the possible involvement of paid FBI informants in Operation Fast and Furious," Issa and Grassley wrote to Mueller. "Specifically, at least one individual who is allegedly an FBI informant might have been in communication with, and was perhaps even conspiring with, at least one suspect whom ATF was monitoring."

Sources say the FBI is using the informants in a national security investigation. The men were allegedly debriefed by the FBI at a safe house in New Mexico last year.

Sources say the informants previously worked for the DEA and U.S. Marshall's Office but their contracts were terminated because the men were "stone-cold killers." The FBI however stopped their scheduled deportation because their high ranks within the cartel were useful.

In their July letter, Issa and Grassley asked Mueller if any of those informants were ever deported by the DEA or any other law enforcement entity and how they were repatriated.

Asked about the content of the emails, a former federal prosecutor who viewed them expressed shock.

"I have never seen anything like this. I can see the FBI may have an informant involved but I can't see them tampering with evidence. If this is all accurate, I'm stunned," the former prosecutor said.

“This information confirms what our sources were saying all along -- that the FBI was covering up the true circumstances of the murder of Brian Terry," added Mike Vanderboegh, an authority on the Fast and Furious investigation who runs a whistleblower website called Sipsey Street.

"It also confirms that the FBI was at least as culpable, and perhaps more culpable, than the ATF in the (Fast and Furious) scandal, and that there was some guiding hand above both these agencies (and the other agencies involved) coordinating the larger operation," Vanderboegh said.

Asked about the new evidence, Terry family attorney Pat McGroder said, "The family wants answers. They'd like to put this to rest and put closure to exactly what happened to Brian."



By William Lajeunesse
Published September 09, 2011
| FoxNews.com
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics...0,109137.story

G M

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #694 on: September 09, 2011, 12:21:22 PM »
Asked about the content of the emails, a former federal prosecutor who viewed them expressed shock.

"I have never seen anything like this. I can see the FBI may have an informant involved but I can't see them tampering with evidence. If this is all accurate, I'm stunned," the former prosecutor said.

It's almost like Chicago-style corruption has gone to the federal level. I wonder how that happened.....

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Quick Summary of the Proposed National Right to Carry Act (H.R.822)
« Reply #696 on: September 14, 2011, 04:57:49 PM »


Quick Summary of the Proposed National Right to Carry Act (H.R.822)

Posted on September 13, 2011 by Nick Leghorn



 
The “National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Act of 2011,” known also as H.R.822 or “The Streets Aren’t Red Enough Act” by the Brady Campaign has been talked about a lot in the news, but not many news organizations have taken the time to actually read through the damned thing and parse it out for their readers (despite the fact that it’s currently only six pages long). Seeing as I’m a bit of a legislation nerd I figured I would give it a go and walk you guys through exactly what’s being proposed.
 


The preamble, which is the first actual line of the bill, is supposed to succinctly state what the rest of the text is going to do. In this case it does a pretty good job.
 

To amend title 18, United States Code, to provide a national standard in accordance with which nonresidents of a State may carry concealed firearms in the State.
 
The purpose of this bill, according to the preamble, is to change the penal code of the United States to outline some standards to enable interstate concealed carry.
 
Since the concept of universal concealed carry isn’t exactly res ipsa loquitur for everyone in congress the next important section outlines the reasons why this should be implemented. The very first statement more or less sets the mood for the rest of the bill:
 

The Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States protects the fundamental right of an individual to keep and bear arms, including for purposes of individual self-defense.
 
The writer is enshrining the Supreme Court’s interperetation of the second amendment as an incorporated right applied to every citizen of the United States and not just on a federal level. This is backed up by the second statement, which refers to the Heller decision of the Supreme Court.
 
The fourth statement is probably the one that is going to rub opponents the wrong way the most:
 

The right to bear arms includes the right to carry arms for self-defense and the defense of others.
 
Boom. Right there. If this becomes law, the right to carry for self defense would be enshrined in law forever. Or until something else comes along to strike it down. And not only does it include personal safety in that clause as a valid reason for employing deadly force but also the safety of “others” as well.
 
There are a couple of statements thrown in here which argue that there is precedent for such a move. Statement #5, for example, is a reminder that Congress previously authorized off-duty officers to carry concealed weapons wherever they go without a permit. Statement #6 is a reminder that 48 states provide some mechanism for citizens to carry a concealed firearm. And statement #7 notes that the overwhelming majority of CCW holders don’t go around shooting up their states.
 
The real authority for this bill, however, doesn’t come from the previous statements but from statement #8, which states that a lack of reciprocity harms interstate commerce. The U.S. Constitution has what’s known as the “commerce clause” in the legislative powers section of the constitution. From the section enumerating Congress’ powers:
 

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
 
As any good High School student will tell you, any powers not enumerated specifically in the constitution are reserved to the states themselves. This is where the states get their authority to issue carry permits as they see fit. However, by not providing universal reciprocity the states have set up a condition where a citizen in one state may choose not to travel in interstate commerce due to that lack of reciprocity. Because of that effect on interstate commerce, Congress has the ability to act.
 
Yeah. I know. It kinda makes your brain hurt. But this is the same crutch Congress uses to pass a good chunk of their legislation that doesn’t seem to fit anywhere else in the outlined powers, so I guess what’s good for the goose and all.
 
Enough about the findings and the legal precedents, what does this bill actually DO? Here’s the main section:
 

(a) Notwithstanding any provision of the law of any State or political subdivision thereof, related to the carrying or transportation of firearms, a person who is not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm, and who is carrying a government-issued photographic identification document and a valid license or permit which is issued pursuant to the law of a State and which permits the person to carry a concealed firearm, may carry a concealed handgun (other than a machinegun or destructive device) that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, in any State, other than the State of residence of the person, that–
 `(1) has a statute that allows residents of the State to obtain licenses or permits to carry concealed firearms; or
 `(2) does not prohibit the carrying of concealed firearms by residents of the State for lawful purposes.
 
In English: As long as there are no local or state ordinances against carrying a concealed weapon, any U.S. Citizen who meets the following criteria can carry a concealed firearm (but not a machine gun or destructive device) in any state that allows concealed carry:
 ■Can legally own a firearm
 ■Carrying a government issued photo ID
 ■Carrying a concealed firearms permit issued by ANY state (not just the state of residence)
 ■Use a firearm that came from a different state or country
 
That last bit about the firearm coming from a different state might be another attempt to invoke the commerce clause, but it makes it a pain in the ass if you want to use a gun that was made in your state.
 
The big catch there is that the state you’re in has to have some sort of mechanism for allowing concealed carry. Illinois and the District of Columbia are the only two “states” that don’t allow concealed carry in some form or another.
 
Here’s another good question: What laws does the CCWer have to follow? If this new bill goes into effect, the laws of the state and locality where you’re carrying apply. So if you’re in a state that doesn’t allow carry in a restaurant you can’t walk into Applebee’s with your Glock under your shirt even if you have a permit from a state that says it’s OK. Rules about magazine size default to the current state you’re in as well.
 
On the other hand, if the local government issues their permits with restrictions (time, etc) on the licenses, this bill would allow out of state permit holders to operate as if they had “unrestricted” permits.
 
The rest of the bill clarifies some legal stuff to keep from pissing off the states too much, and allows the bill to be “severable.” That means that if one section is unconstitutional, only that section is struck down and the rest lives on.
 
That just about covers this bill as it stands right now. It’s still sitting in committee with 243 cosponsors, but hasn’t moved since it was introduced. Suffice it to say, should anything happen we will let you know.
 







About Nick Leghorn
 Nick Leghorn (Staff Writer - TTAG) is a Risk Analyst living in Northern Virginia. In his free time, he's a competition shooter (USPSA, 3-gun and NRA High Power service rifle division) and enjoys mixing statistics and science with firearms. Click here for his most recent competition results.

http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/09/foghorn/quick-summary-of-the-proposed-national-right-to-carry-act-h-r-822/











prentice crawford

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #697 on: September 15, 2011, 04:35:00 AM »
Woof,
 This will put some Dem's on the hot seat right before an election year. The Left is as anti-gun as ever but a number of so called moderate Dem's were reelected last time around because they said they were pro gun. We'll see.
                                                         P.C.

Crafty_Dog

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Re: We the Well-armed People (Gun rights stuff )
« Reply #698 on: September 15, 2011, 11:20:06 AM »
"As any good High School student will tell you, any powers not enumerated specifically in the constitution are reserved to the states themselves. This is where the states get their authority to issue carry permits as they see fit. However, by not providing universal reciprocity the states have set up a condition where a citizen in one state may choose not to travel in interstate commerce due to that lack of reciprocity. Because of that effect on interstate commerce, Congress has the ability to act."

I have a bit of a problem here.  I think current Interstate Commerce clause jurisprudence exceeds by quite a bit what the Constitution really says.   It makes sense to me that each state find its way on these things.

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The body count continues to climb
« Reply #699 on: September 15, 2011, 09:53:32 PM »
3 more murders linked to Gunwalker

By Sharyl Attkisson


Weapons linked to ATF's controversial "Fast and Furious" operation have been tied to at least eight violent crimes in Mexico including three murders, four kidnappings and an attempted homicide.

According to a letter from U.S. Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich to Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA) and Sen. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa), the disclosed incidents may be only a partial list of violent crimes linked to Fast and Furious weapons because "ATF has not conducted a comprehensive independent investigation."

When added to the guns found at the murder scene of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry in the U.S., the newly-revealed murders in Mexico bring the total number of deaths linked to Fast and Furious to four.

According to the Justice Department letter:

One AK-47 type assault rifle purchased by a Fast and Furious suspect was recovered Nov. 14, 2009 in Atoyac de Alvarez, Mexico after the Mexican military rescued a kidnap victim.

On July 1, 2010, two AK-47 type assault rifles purchased by Fast and Furious suspects were recovered in Sonora, Mexico after a shootout between cartels. Two murders were reported in the incident using the weapons.

On July 26, 2010, a giant .50 caliber Barrett rifle purchased by a Fast and Furious suspect was recovered in Durango, Mexico after apparently having been fired. No further details of the incident were given.

On Aug. 13, 2010, two AK-47 type assault rifles purchased by a Fast and Furious target were recovered in Durango, Mexico after a confrontation between the Mexican military and an "armed group."

On Nov. 14, 2010, two AK-47 type assault rifles purchased by Fast and Furious targets were recovered in Chihuahua, Mexico after "the kidnapping of two individuals and the murder of a family member of a Mexican public official." Sources tell CBS News they believe this is a reference to a case we previously reported on: the terrorist kidnapping, torture and murder of Mario Gonzalez Rodriguez. Rodriguez was the brother of then-attorney general Patricia Gonzalez Rodriguez. The terrorists released video of Rodriguez before his death, in handcuffs surrounded by hooded gunmen.

On May 27, 2011, three AK-47 type assault rifles purchased by Fast and Furious targets were recovered in Jalisco, Mexico after having been fired. No other details of the incident were provided, but the date and location match with another incident previously reported by CBS News. On May 27 near Jalisto, cartel members fired upon a Mexican government helicopter, forcing it to make an emergency landing. According to one law enforcement source, 29 suspected cartel members were killed in the attack.