Author Topic: Ukraine  (Read 152516 times)

G M

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Ukraine is safer
« Reply #1150 on: February 21, 2023, 10:18:50 AM »

ccp

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I'm thinking Biden whispers to Zelensky
« Reply #1151 on: February 22, 2023, 05:26:20 AM »
"keep staying mum and I'll keep the taxpayer cash coming
I got some tips on  where you can hide the money too "

https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2023/feb/20/biden-and-zelenskiy-hug-in-kyiv-after-paying-tribute-to-fallen-soldiers-video

DougMacG

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1152 on: February 22, 2023, 06:22:35 AM »
quote author=G M
“We will bravely fight to the last Ukrainian!”
-------

Almost right.  We will provide not blank check support as long as Ukrainian people are motivated to fight back.  They are risking and sacrificing real lives.  We are expending relatively small money.

Two different, overlapping motives.  They want to keep their country.  We (some of us) want to see Russia:
 - not expand its reach
 - draw down it's arsenal
 - not gain land, sea and resources
 - learn a lesson
 - Putin lose leadership.

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1153 on: February 22, 2023, 07:13:39 AM »
Yes to the both of you. :-D

Crafty_Dog

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WSJ: Win or we are fuct
« Reply #1154 on: February 22, 2023, 09:49:57 AM »
A year of war in Ukraine hasn’t changed Vladimir Putin, and we hope Western politicians preaching “peace” were listening to his speech on Tuesday. The Russian promised nothing but more war and blamed the West for it. His choice in turn means there is only a binary choice for the West: Give Ukraine the weapons to win, or abandon Ukraine and live with the fallout for decades.

It’s worth noting how little Mr. Putin’s ambitions have changed since he rolled over Ukraine’s border last Feb. 24. His humiliating failure to capture Kyiv in the war’s first days didn’t dissuade him from regrouping to attack the country’s east. Russian forces are now launching a fresh offensive and grinding down Ukrainians in Bakhmut.

The Russians have lost some 2,000 tanks, half of the operational fleet, according to estimates, and appear to be hauling old Soviet equipment out of storage. But Mr. Putin has turned to Iran for a steady supply of drones and other military equipment, and now he’s hoping that China will ship him weapons. “Significantly” more than 100,000 Russians are dead or wounded, the Pentagon says, but Mr. Putin is throwing 200,000 more into the fight, even with little training or equipment.

Mr. Putin’s goal is unchanged: Control most or all of Ukraine, and incorporate it into his greater Russian empire. He still thinks he can outlast the Ukrainian government and its Western supporters. Many in the U.S. and Europe are ready to head to a negotiating table, but Mr. Putin is not. The only settlement he has in mind is Ukraine’s surrender.

The fastest route to peace then is defeating Mr. Putin, which the Biden Administration still seems reluctant to admit. Mr. Biden hasn’t wavered in his rhetorical support for Ukraine, and his Tuesday Speech in Poland struck the right note that autocrats “cannot be appeased” but “must be opposed.”

Yet his air of triumphalism is premature—Ukraine could still lose—and it is backed by ambivalent action. In the latest example, Mr. Biden is still holding back the Army tactical missile system, long-range weapons that the Ukrainians desperately want so they can strike deeper into Russian positions. The Administration is leaking that the U.S. military doesn’t have any to spare, but allied inventory estimates run in the thousands.

This has been the pattern for a year. The Biden team throws up reasons why a certain weapon—tanks, Patriot missile defenses, Himars—can’t be provided to Ukraine. The system is too complex. The training will take too long. Then these objections suddenly vanish after criticism in public and from Congress, and Ukraine gets the goods. Can we skip ahead and provide F-16 fighter jets now?

Getting Ukraine the weapons they need is increasingly urgent. If Russia receives arms from China, the war will descend into an even bloodier stalemate or a Ukrainian defeat. Political support could fray in European capitals and in Washington, even as Beijing’s involvement raised the global risks of defeat.

***
To that end, Mr. Biden might speak more directly to the Americans who are increasingly skeptical of the stakes in Ukraine, and ground his case for U.S. support in core national interests, not Wilsonian flights about foreign “sovereignty” and democracy.

The stakes in Ukraine aren’t confined to Eastern Europe. Russia, Iran and China are working together—you might even call it an Axis—to dominate as much of the world as they can. If Ukraine is absorbed into a Greater Russian Co-Prosperity Sphere, the world will make accommodations to the autocrats.

The risks of backing Ukraine are real, but the risks of abandoning it are greater. The Ukrainians have put up an audacious fight but, absent more advanced U.S. arms, this story could still end with Mr. Putin a greater menace to Europe, China emboldened, and the United States weaker. That’s not a peace to desire.


Crafty_Dog

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ccp

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VDH view on Ukraine
« Reply #1157 on: February 23, 2023, 03:47:12 PM »
as always he seems to be able to pull all the pieces together

https://dailycaller.com/2023/02/23/victor-davis-hanson-the-ukraine-wars-prelude-to-what/

As an aside

I don't but the idea that it is cheaper to supply Ukraine now then the cost would be otherwise
as some suggest
how the hell can anyone know that
from what I can see it will cost us more now and then later anyway

ya

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1158 on: February 23, 2023, 05:12:57 PM »
Re: Ukraine Russia will not back down, they will drag on the war until they achieve their goals. The west and the USA does not have the appetite for a long drawn out war. At some point the financial costs will become prohibitive. Provision of advanced fighter jets, missiles only ensures greater destruction of Ukraine as Russia too will escalate. The Minsk agreement needs to be followed, if Ukraine wants peace. There is a real risk they could also lose Odessa and if the Russians take Odessa, Transnystria is next.

The survival of Ukr as a rump state, with no ports and much of its male and female population gone (killed or left the country as refugees), is not conducive to long term viability. China very likely will provide weapons support, covertly or overtly. The clowns in washington have pushed Russia into China's arms, when all along the fight should have been with China.

I know this is likely not a popular version of events, but this what I see.

ya

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1159 on: February 23, 2023, 05:27:22 PM »
Still unconfirmed, but discussion/rumors of a false flag operation on Transnystria.


Crafty_Dog

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1160 on: February 23, 2023, 05:38:13 PM »
GPF today:

"By: Geopolitical Futures

"Moldovan response. Moldova’s foreign minister said Chisinau will begin the process of renouncing several agreements signed under the Commonwealth of Independent States in response to Russia’s attempts to destabilize the country. This comes after the Russian president earlier this week revoked a 2012 decree recognizing Moldova’s independence in resolving the dispute over the Russian-backed separatist region of Transnistria, which borders Ukraine. Moscow has also accused Kyiv of planning a provocation in Transnistria and framing it as a Russian assault on the territory."

As I look at your map a thunderbolt of the blindingly obvious to which I had been oblivious struck me:  What is the move on Odesa comes from Transnitia?!?

ya

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1161 on: February 23, 2023, 05:45:06 PM »
Russia has only  2000 peacekeepers in Transnystria. It has one of the largest stores of russian weapons, the problem is how to get the Russian forces to Transnystria. Russia will want its land borders to extend up to Transnystria. So things might get interesting.

The only way I see is to fly over a portion of Ukraine  and Moldova (risk of getting shot down), and logistical support lines would be hard to maintain. If the end game is to reach Transnystria, it can only be through Odessa, so the war can last a long time.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2023, 05:51:23 PM by ya »

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1162 on: February 23, 2023, 05:52:02 PM »

ya

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1163 on: February 23, 2023, 05:52:56 PM »
Also, the US coalition is mostly the EU and english speaking countries. The global south is not on board.
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/greenwald-nyt-finally-admits-international-community-does-not-stand-us-ukraine


ya

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1165 on: February 26, 2023, 05:44:49 PM »
The greyed out countries (140 of them), dont support sanctions against Russia. Now the US is poking China to start a war over Taiwan. How many countries will support that ?.

« Last Edit: February 26, 2023, 05:54:57 PM by ya »

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1166 on: February 26, 2023, 08:01:04 PM »
Is it fair to say we are poking China over Taiwan?

If we are going to do so, let's discuss this on the Taiwan thread.

ya

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1167 on: February 27, 2023, 07:40:12 AM »
It is commendable, that the US is standing up for Taiwan and against China. My concern is that past history teaches us that we "choose to get involved" in other people's wars for geostrategic reasons, but since the US homeland is itself never directly threatened, we do not  have the will to win them. We can now see Macron/Scholz starting to realize that Ukr is not winning anything, including Crimea. The EU realizes Ukr is a lost cause, if they continue on the same path, they too will be destroyed. The higher energy costs will lead to deindustrialization of Germany and the EU, they will not be competitive, with that the social structures will unravel. Ukr losing millions of prime age men to the EU and Germany, means that there is no one to build that corrupt country back. These refugees will settle in Europe, initially increasing costs for Germany, but over the long term, they will provide new workers and that will be a plus for Germany.

There is absolutely no way the west can defeat Russia. Lets assume, the west works to produce munitions on a war footing. The costs will be astronomical, and it can only lead to the nuking of Ukraine as a start, followed by the potential nuking of the EU. There is a small chance that Russia could get nuked, but it will survive, its a huge country with a low population density, but what happens to Europe ?. I personally also do not see the US nuking Russia, for the sake of Europe (inspite of what the treaties say). France has already indicated it will not participate in any nuclear exchange with Russia.


https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/western-leaders-privately-admit-ukraine-cant-win-war

P.S. It may also be so that the US realizes that the Ukr war is not winnable and they are pivotting to China.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2023, 08:08:57 AM by ya »

DougMacG

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1168 on: February 27, 2023, 09:54:08 AM »
From the link:

"Western leaders privately told Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky that Ukraine can not win the war against Russia and that it should begin peace talks with Moscow this year in exchange for closer ties with NATO."

  - Maybe this IS what a win looks like. 

At the start, Ukraine was not allowed to associate with NATO.  Now it might end up a full member or nearly so, and NATO just added two other countries (?).

At the start it looked like bully Russia would take Kiev and all of Ukraine in a matter of weeks at nearly no cost.  Didn't happen.  Then it looked like they would take the entire coast and I think that failed too.  It looked like all the losses of life and artillery would be Ukrainian.  Not so.  Putin would be empowered with new territory the size of Texas and the new line between Russia and Europe would move one time zone westward.  Isn't happening.

Instead we have: Putin is now the emperor with no clothes. His health and vigor is  in a par with Biden? His tanks, arsenal and troops are depleted, not empowered.  Sanctions we say didn't work because they hurt us too, but they hurt Russia worse, I think.

Also I think Putin's stature at home is at an all time low.  Even dictators need approval of some sort.

Meanwhile, quagmire in Ukraine is barely among our top 100 problems at home, in my view.

https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-aid-has-us-sent-ukraine-here-are-six-charts

https://www.statista.com/statistics/315032/us-supplemental-nutrition-assistance-program-total-costs/#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20the%20total%20cost,around%20113.74%20billion%20U.S.%20dollars.

https://www.aura.com/learn/ppp-loan-fraud

https://reason.org/commentary/californias-public-pension-debt-grows/#:~:text=The%20California%20Public%20Employees'%20Retirement,its%20results%20reported%20in%20July.

https://www.cbo.gov/publication/58870#:~:text=In%202034%2C%20Social%20Security%20revenues,by%2023%20percent%20in%202034.

And so on...
« Last Edit: February 27, 2023, 09:55:47 AM by DougMacG »

G M

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1169 on: February 27, 2023, 10:36:48 AM »
https://dossier.substack.com/p/schrodingers-russia-paradox

From the link:

"Western leaders privately told Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky that Ukraine can not win the war against Russia and that it should begin peace talks with Moscow this year in exchange for closer ties with NATO."

  - Maybe this IS what a win looks like. 

At the start, Ukraine was not allowed to associate with NATO.  Now it might end up a full member or nearly so, and NATO just added two other countries (?).

At the start it looked like bully Russia would take Kiev and all of Ukraine in a matter of weeks at nearly no cost.  Didn't happen.  Then it looked like they would take the entire coast and I think that failed too.  It looked like all the losses of life and artillery would be Ukrainian.  Not so.  Putin would be empowered with new territory the size of Texas and the new line between Russia and Europe would move one time zone westward.  Isn't happening.

Instead we have: Putin is now the emperor with no clothes. His health and vigor is  in a par with Biden? His tanks, arsenal and troops are depleted, not empowered.  Sanctions we say didn't work because they hurt us too, but they hurt Russia worse, I think.

Also I think Putin's stature at home is at an all time low.  Even dictators need approval of some sort.

Meanwhile, quagmire in Ukraine is barely among our top 100 problems at home, in my view.

https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-aid-has-us-sent-ukraine-here-are-six-charts

https://www.statista.com/statistics/315032/us-supplemental-nutrition-assistance-program-total-costs/#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20the%20total%20cost,around%20113.74%20billion%20U.S.%20dollars.

https://www.aura.com/learn/ppp-loan-fraud

https://reason.org/commentary/californias-public-pension-debt-grows/#:~:text=The%20California%20Public%20Employees'%20Retirement,its%20results%20reported%20in%20July.

https://www.cbo.gov/publication/58870#:~:text=In%202034%2C%20Social%20Security%20revenues,by%2023%20percent%20in%202034.

And so on...

DougMacG

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1170 on: February 27, 2023, 11:42:16 AM »
"D.C. Uniparty"

You lose me there every time. Plus a new straw man argument in almost every paragraph.

G M

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1171 on: February 27, 2023, 03:16:07 PM »
"D.C. Uniparty"

You lose me there every time. Plus a new straw man argument in almost every paragraph.

You have a term you prefer?


G M

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1172 on: February 27, 2023, 03:18:04 PM »
I very much doubt the deal will allow Ukraine to be anything but a neutral buffer state.

From the link:

"Western leaders privately told Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky that Ukraine can not win the war against Russia and that it should begin peace talks with Moscow this year in exchange for closer ties with NATO."

  - Maybe this IS what a win looks like. 

At the start, Ukraine was not allowed to associate with NATO.  Now it might end up a full member or nearly so, and NATO just added two other countries (?).

At the start it looked like bully Russia would take Kiev and all of Ukraine in a matter of weeks at nearly no cost.  Didn't happen.  Then it looked like they would take the entire coast and I think that failed too.  It looked like all the losses of life and artillery would be Ukrainian.  Not so.  Putin would be empowered with new territory the size of Texas and the new line between Russia and Europe would move one time zone westward.  Isn't happening.

Instead we have: Putin is now the emperor with no clothes. His health and vigor is  in a par with Biden? His tanks, arsenal and troops are depleted, not empowered.  Sanctions we say didn't work because they hurt us too, but they hurt Russia worse, I think.

Also I think Putin's stature at home is at an all time low.  Even dictators need approval of some sort.

Meanwhile, quagmire in Ukraine is barely among our top 100 problems at home, in my view.

https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-aid-has-us-sent-ukraine-here-are-six-charts

https://www.statista.com/statistics/315032/us-supplemental-nutrition-assistance-program-total-costs/#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20the%20total%20cost,around%20113.74%20billion%20U.S.%20dollars.

https://www.aura.com/learn/ppp-loan-fraud

https://reason.org/commentary/californias-public-pension-debt-grows/#:~:text=The%20California%20Public%20Employees'%20Retirement,its%20results%20reported%20in%20July.

https://www.cbo.gov/publication/58870#:~:text=In%202034%2C%20Social%20Security%20revenues,by%2023%20percent%20in%202034.

And so on...

DougMacG

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1173 on: February 27, 2023, 03:40:38 PM »
"You have a term you prefer?"

 -  For people who don't know the difference between Chuck Schumer and Marco Rubio? No. I don't wish to call them names.

DougMacG

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1174 on: February 27, 2023, 03:51:02 PM »
"neutral buffer state"

 - Without the right to make agreements to defend their sovereignty and borders, like before?

Didn't work last time.

Maybe that's why there is no agreement as of yet.

G M

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1175 on: February 27, 2023, 03:51:10 PM »
"You have a term you prefer?"

 -  For people who don't know the difference between Chuck Schumer and Marco Rubio? No. I don't wish to call them names.

What do you call the republicans that after endless lawlessness from the FBI vote to increase their budget?

DougMacG

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1176 on: February 27, 2023, 11:00:51 PM »
DC Uniparty, logic presented is that Republicans let us down once, or let's say a hundred or a thousand times, therefore the parties are the same. Good grief.  The corollary is, elections don't matter, why vote. Add to that the cheat and it's double, why vote.  What self-defeating nonsense. 

AOC knows the parties are different and she's not smarter than you   She votes roughly 100% with her party, always against what I/we believe.  These votes are in near perfect harmony with her Marxism anti American beliefs.  That's the same as who on the right?  Nobody.  It's utter nonsense.

The Supreme Court doesn't matter, the Justices decided on party line vote are the same?  No they aren't.  Why spread such bullsh*t?

If you want to blur the differences and trivialize the elections and the consequences, I don't want to be near it.

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1177 on: February 28, 2023, 06:41:52 AM »
"DC Uniparty, logic presented is that Republicans let us down once, or let's say a hundred or a thousand times, therefore the parties are the same. Good grief.  The corollary is, elections don't matter, why vote. Add to that the cheat and it's double, why vote.  What self-defeating nonsense.

"AOC knows the parties are different and she's not smarter than you   She votes roughly 100% with her party, always against what I/we believe.  These votes are in near perfect harmony with her Marxism anti American beliefs.  That's the same as who on the right?  Nobody.  It's utter nonsense."

Well said.

G M

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1178 on: February 28, 2023, 07:15:07 AM »
"DC Uniparty, logic presented is that Republicans let us down once, or let's say a hundred or a thousand times, therefore the parties are the same. Good grief.  The corollary is, elections don't matter, why vote. Add to that the cheat and it's double, why vote.  What self-defeating nonsense.

"AOC knows the parties are different and she's not smarter than you   She votes roughly 100% with her party, always against what I/we believe.  These votes are in near perfect harmony with her Marxism anti American beliefs.  That's the same as who on the right?  Nobody.  It's utter nonsense."

Well said.


Actions matter, not words. Endless republican failure theater "Gosh guys, we tried".


https://www.politico.com/news/2022/12/19/government-funding-deal-hits-11th-hour-snag-the-fbi-headquarters-00074663

Leading lawmakers unveiled a $1.7 trillion year-end spending bill early Tuesday as they raced to pass the sprawling package by week’s end, with federal cash expiring at midnight on Friday.

The so-called omnibus would provide the military with $858 billion this fiscal year, a nearly 10 percent increase over current levels. It would fund domestic programs at more than $772 billion, including nearly $119 billion, or a 22 percent increase, for veterans’ medical care, according to the office of Senate Appropriations Chair Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.).

The Senate is expected to act first on the spending package in the coming days, seeking a time agreement that would allow the bill to pass before Thursday night and sending it to the House. Any senator could hold up that deal in exchange for amendments or concessions. Senate Minority Whip John Thune said Monday that he expected conservatives to push for an amendment related to stripping out earmarks — or projects in lawmakers’ home states.

“I don’t anticipate that it would be real thorny getting to a final vote, but it might take a little time,” Thune said, adding that with the holidays looming, “the thing that somebody has to trade is time.”

The biggest hold-up to releasing the text on Monday came, instead, from a dispute among Democrats, first reported by POLITICO, related to the location of the FBI’s new headquarters.

House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer and other Marylanders were pushing to get language inserted into the bill that would favor their home state by changing the GSA’s criteria for selecting the location, while Sens. Mark Warner and Tim Kaine of Virginia were pushing to keep language out of the spending bill, keeping current guidelines in place that would favor Virginia.

Both sides ultimately agreed to disagree. Instead, they worked out a deal requiring the head of the GSA to meet with representatives from both states to consider their ideas on the FBI’s mission requirements, equity and a potential site’s sustainability, according to a Senate Democratic aide.

The final haggling and release of the text comes after staff and key lawmakers worked through the weekend to wrap up the legislation, with Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer quipping that staff and appropriators haven’t slept, working through Hanukkah and the World Cup finale. In a sign that the FBI standoff was the final puzzle piece, Senate Republicans started briefing staff on the details of the spending deal on Monday evening.


“We must wrap the whole process up and vote on final passage before the end of the week,” Schumer said. “It won’t be easy, but we are working hard so we can get it done.”

Senate GOP Leader Mitch McConnell has insisted that the upper chamber pass the measure by Thursday, or else Republicans will back a stopgap bill to fund the government into early next year.

So, the republicans were so outraged by endless FBI criminality, they made sure the FBI got new headquarters and the DOJ got a 10% budget increase!

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1179 on: February 28, 2023, 07:31:04 AM »
Ah, once again we have gone off the subject matter of a particular thread.  Including myself in this.  Gents, please let's stay on topic within the context of a thread.

Returning to Ukraine:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-quietly-shipping-ammo-to-ukraine-from-massive-stockpile-in-israel-report/?fbclid=IwAR2qQZydJjLBbD8gdI8SV6VzMywWKIHqPUxMyQTRY3MXABJr7TpxYZa35GM#:~:text=The%20US%20military%20is%20quietly,to%20use%20in%20regional%20conflicts

ccp

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« Last Edit: March 01, 2023, 06:19:03 AM by ccp »

G M

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DougMacG

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Re: Sen. Hawley's 180
« Reply #1183 on: March 01, 2023, 08:17:19 PM »
Yes.  What changed?  Pretty easy to guess. The war isn't polling well with conservatives. And that's what great leaders do, right, is follow?

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/01/us/politics/ukraine-russia-war-support-biden.html

What the hell does E. Palestine have to do with Ukraine?  We spend more in PPP fraud than we do in Ukraine thwarting Putin.

Not a blank check.  Not in lieu of Europe paying it's share.  Not without audit and controls.  Not if the people of Ukraine are ready to give up the fight.  But aside from the China threat and the threat here from within, what do we have right now that's bigger than this? 

$5.8Triilion in federal spending 2023 and we've spent less than 0.1 trillion putting the world's second most dangerous man in a deadly quagmire of his own making.  The alternative is let him have whatever he wants?

Where is the big debate over the other $5.7 Trillion?

Can anyone name every program that costs more than Ukraine?  (Didn't think so.)  Here's one.  Cost of living adjustments alone to social security for Bidenflation, 100 billion. We could have saved 100 billion per year into perpetuity  - on just one program, by not vo ting for Democrat-Bidenflation. And we could have saved 6 Trillion in two years on the spending that led to that, and stood up to Putin 60 times over. But no.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2023, 08:27:45 PM by DougMacG »

G M

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Re: Sen. Hawley's 180
« Reply #1184 on: March 01, 2023, 09:20:48 PM »
How many audits have been done?

Yes.  What changed?  Pretty easy to guess. The war isn't polling well with conservatives. And that's what great leaders do, right, is follow?

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/01/us/politics/ukraine-russia-war-support-biden.html

What the hell does E. Palestine have to do with Ukraine?  We spend more in PPP fraud than we do in Ukraine thwarting Putin.

Not a blank check.  Not in lieu of Europe paying it's share.  Not without audit and controls.  Not if the people of Ukraine are ready to give up the fight.  But aside from the China threat and the threat here from within, what do we have right now that's bigger than this? 

$5.8Triilion in federal spending 2023 and we've spent less than 0.1 trillion putting the world's second most dangerous man in a deadly quagmire of his own making.  The alternative is let him have whatever he wants?

Where is the big debate over the other $5.7 Trillion?

Can anyone name every program that costs more than Ukraine?  (Didn't think so.)  Here's one.  Cost of living adjustments alone to social security for Bidenflation, 100 billion. We could have saved 100 billion per year into perpetuity  - on just one program, by not vo ting for Democrat-Bidenflation. And we could have saved 6 Trillion in two years on the spending that led to that, and stood up to Putin 60 times over. But no.

DougMacG

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1185 on: March 02, 2023, 05:57:35 AM »
"How many audits have been done?"

How many votes in the House and Senate (and White House) does YOUR party have to force an audit?

As is common, quote the entire post and deride it on a single turn of phrase.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2023, 06:09:57 AM by DougMacG »

G M

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1186 on: March 02, 2023, 06:29:19 AM »
Just pointing out the massively corrupt boondoggle the Ukraine war has been

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/feb/04/welcome-to-the-most-corrupt-nation-in-europe-ukraine

We must make the world safe for Hunter's Burisma checks!

https://www.theburningplatform.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Fp_zqf7aUAE2Thp.jpg


"How many audits have been done?"

How many votes in the House and Senate (and White House) does YOUR party have to force an audit?

As is common, quote the entire post and deride it on a single turn of phrase.

DougMacG

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1187 on: March 02, 2023, 06:47:20 AM »
"Just pointing out the massively corrupt boondoggle the Ukraine war has been."

You don't need my posts to do that.  I said I support the audits. So did some Republicans and no Democrats. No votes for an audit will be coming from elected representatives of the anti-Uniparty.

The idea that Ukrainians are risking and sacrificing their lives for Hunter Burisma is absurd. Something else is at stake even if you won't admit it.

ccp

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1188 on: March 02, 2023, 06:48:20 AM »
Ukraine National Bank
 :-D

suspect many Ukraine owned "dachas" springing up around the world
 :wink:

offshore accounts and bitcoins .....

Pentagon can't even keep account of domestic military spending yet they tell us there is "no evidence " of fraud in Ukraine

G M

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1189 on: March 02, 2023, 06:57:15 AM »
"Just pointing out the massively corrupt boondoggle the Ukraine war has been."

You don't need my posts to do that.  I said I support the audits. So did some Republicans and no Democrats. No votes for an audit will be coming from elected representatives of the anti-Uniparty.

The idea that Ukrainians are risking and sacrificing their lives for Hunter Burisma is absurd. Something else is at stake even if you won't admit it.

Yes, they are fighting and sacrificing their lives so that corrupt Ukrainian Oligarchs can launder money for corrupt American Oligarchs rather than be ruled by corrupt Russian Oligarchs,

So now we are risking a global nuclear war to keep the Russians out of Russian Donbas.

G M

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1190 on: March 02, 2023, 07:25:07 AM »
Ukraine National Bank
 :-D

suspect many Ukraine owned "dachas" springing up around the world
 :wink:

offshore accounts and bitcoins .....

Pentagon can't even keep account of domestic military spending yet they tell us there is "no evidence " of fraud in Ukraine

https://www.occrp.org/en/the-pandora-papers/pandora-papers-reveal-offshore-holdings-of-ukrainian-president-and-his-inner-circle

https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/2020/11/16/the-pentagon-failed-its-audit-again-but-sees-progress/

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1191 on: March 02, 2023, 07:42:12 AM »
I think all of us here are agreed that:

A) in a sense, this war was a war of choice, and that this choice was really stupid for a variety of reasons;

B) there is A LOT of corruption-- and that includes certain powerful Americans, likely including our President and the former Speaker of the House;

C) the Ukes are fighting bravely and well

D) the Russians are being brutal assholes.

Where things get more complicated is in WHAT DO WE DO NOW?

ALL apparent options seriously suck-- and I would submit that advocacy of any one of them requires acknowledgement of its costs.

DougMacG

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Re: Ukraine military strategy, Austin Bay
« Reply #1192 on: March 03, 2023, 06:34:29 AM »
https://strategypage.com/on_point/2023030191420.aspx

On Point: Ukraine's Combined Arms Warfare Edge

by Austin Bay
March 1, 2023
March 2022's Ukraine war videos of exploding Russian tanks showed the world that Ukrainian soldiers armed with modern anti-tank weapons knew how to ambush and destroy Russia's mightiest armored fighting vehicles.

Wire service photos of Russian vehicle graveyards confirmed Ukrainian military units knew how to defeat and destroy entire Russian military units -- entire formations, not just individual tanks.

Burnt-out tanks, smashed armored infantry carriers, abandoned self-propelled anti-aircraft and artillery vehicles, scores of shrapnel-riddled trucks -- the photos showed the metal bones of a Russian armored BTG (Battalion Task Group).

In February 2022 Russia fielded an estimated 170 BTGs. With these allegedly modern combined arms units Vladimir Putin believed Ukraine would quickly submit to a Russian blitzkrieg.

For many reasons, with Ukrainian will to win and tactical training in the top five, Putin's invasion stalled then collapsed. By midsummer Ukrainian local combined arms attacks had forced Russian retreats.

Combined arms. Alexander the Great used the concept, coordinating Macedonian cavalry, heavy infantry and quick light infantry maneuver and attacks. Napoleon combined infantry, cavalry and artillery. German WWII panzer divisions combined tanks, armored infantry (panzer grenadiers), mobile artillery and air attacks (close air support of ground forces).

The U.S. Army and Army Air Corps of 1944 were very good at combined arms warfare. The December 1944 attacks of 4th Armored Division's Combat Command Reserve (CCR) to relieve Bastogne are an excellent example of combined arms warfare.

Led by Lieutenant-Colonel Creighton Abrams, commanding the 37th Tank Battalion (the M1 Abrams tank is his namesake) and by Lieutenant-Colonel George Jaques commanding the 53d Armored Infantry Battalion (WWII lingo for infantry mounted on halftracks), CCR was a small and understrength brigade. But Abrams and Jaques combined the 37th's three tank companies with the 53rd's three armored infantry companies, forming three combined arms armored teams.

With the 94th Armored Field Artillery Battalion in close support, Teams A, B and C fought a series of small but vicious little battles until CCR reached Assenois, four miles from Bastogne. After a massive artillery preparation, Team C broke through to relieve the 101st Airborne.

The point relevant to Ukraine: Abrams' tanks didn't fight without Jaques' infantry and in an offensive operation, smart infantry commanders didn't fight without tank support. Successful armored operations require well-trained infantry eyes and infantry weapons to protect the tanks from cheap shots and help the tankers identify targets.

With the infantry support, tankers can concentrate their vehicles' enormous firepower and maneuverability on breaking through enemy defenses.

In the complete 21st-century U.S.-style mechanized attack, artillery fire, air support (fixed-wing, helicopter and drone) and space support identify, suppress and very often destroy enemy units attempting to regroup or counterattack.

However, successfully conducting an armored attack's violent ballet of tanks, infantry, air and artillery fire takes intensive training. The Russian soldiers in the BTGs, if they ever got that message, never got the training.

Last year the usual ignorant media briefly claimed "the tank is dead." Fortunately, those claims disappeared. One reason: video of Ukrainians using tanks in successful counterattacks. Real experts pointed out the Ukrainians understood combined arms warfare.

In November 2022 Seth Jones of the Center for Strategic and International Studies wrote: "The Ukrainian military has effectively integrated drones into combined arms warfare" and they are "particularly valuable in a contested environment to improve battlefield awareness without risking loss of life."

Ukrainian small units knew tanks need fuel. StrategyPage.com wrote that Ukrainians focused on attacking "supply trucks and vehicles transporting maintenance personnel." As a result, Russian combat vehicles "could not refuel." Stalled on the road, Ukrainian anti-tank teams and artillery decimated the Russian columns.

Western weapons mattered and still matter. The American-made Javelin anti-tank missile and Stinger anti-aircraft missile have performed superbly.

Ukrainian soldiers and their leaders know how to fight as combined arms teams. That's a huge edge.

About the author:
https://austinbay.net/about/


G M

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Re: Ukraine military strategy, Austin Bay
« Reply #1194 on: March 03, 2023, 07:04:26 AM »
https://twitter.com/AZgeopolitics/status/1631571017653952512?cxt=HHwWgICx0cbMwKQtAAAA

Looks like Ukraine is running low on military aged males.


https://strategypage.com/on_point/2023030191420.aspx

On Point: Ukraine's Combined Arms Warfare Edge

by Austin Bay
March 1, 2023
March 2022's Ukraine war videos of exploding Russian tanks showed the world that Ukrainian soldiers armed with modern anti-tank weapons knew how to ambush and destroy Russia's mightiest armored fighting vehicles.

Wire service photos of Russian vehicle graveyards confirmed Ukrainian military units knew how to defeat and destroy entire Russian military units -- entire formations, not just individual tanks.

Burnt-out tanks, smashed armored infantry carriers, abandoned self-propelled anti-aircraft and artillery vehicles, scores of shrapnel-riddled trucks -- the photos showed the metal bones of a Russian armored BTG (Battalion Task Group).

In February 2022 Russia fielded an estimated 170 BTGs. With these allegedly modern combined arms units Vladimir Putin believed Ukraine would quickly submit to a Russian blitzkrieg.

For many reasons, with Ukrainian will to win and tactical training in the top five, Putin's invasion stalled then collapsed. By midsummer Ukrainian local combined arms attacks had forced Russian retreats.

Combined arms. Alexander the Great used the concept, coordinating Macedonian cavalry, heavy infantry and quick light infantry maneuver and attacks. Napoleon combined infantry, cavalry and artillery. German WWII panzer divisions combined tanks, armored infantry (panzer grenadiers), mobile artillery and air attacks (close air support of ground forces).

The U.S. Army and Army Air Corps of 1944 were very good at combined arms warfare. The December 1944 attacks of 4th Armored Division's Combat Command Reserve (CCR) to relieve Bastogne are an excellent example of combined arms warfare.

Led by Lieutenant-Colonel Creighton Abrams, commanding the 37th Tank Battalion (the M1 Abrams tank is his namesake) and by Lieutenant-Colonel George Jaques commanding the 53d Armored Infantry Battalion (WWII lingo for infantry mounted on halftracks), CCR was a small and understrength brigade. But Abrams and Jaques combined the 37th's three tank companies with the 53rd's three armored infantry companies, forming three combined arms armored teams.

With the 94th Armored Field Artillery Battalion in close support, Teams A, B and C fought a series of small but vicious little battles until CCR reached Assenois, four miles from Bastogne. After a massive artillery preparation, Team C broke through to relieve the 101st Airborne.

The point relevant to Ukraine: Abrams' tanks didn't fight without Jaques' infantry and in an offensive operation, smart infantry commanders didn't fight without tank support. Successful armored operations require well-trained infantry eyes and infantry weapons to protect the tanks from cheap shots and help the tankers identify targets.

With the infantry support, tankers can concentrate their vehicles' enormous firepower and maneuverability on breaking through enemy defenses.

In the complete 21st-century U.S.-style mechanized attack, artillery fire, air support (fixed-wing, helicopter and drone) and space support identify, suppress and very often destroy enemy units attempting to regroup or counterattack.

However, successfully conducting an armored attack's violent ballet of tanks, infantry, air and artillery fire takes intensive training. The Russian soldiers in the BTGs, if they ever got that message, never got the training.

Last year the usual ignorant media briefly claimed "the tank is dead." Fortunately, those claims disappeared. One reason: video of Ukrainians using tanks in successful counterattacks. Real experts pointed out the Ukrainians understood combined arms warfare.

In November 2022 Seth Jones of the Center for Strategic and International Studies wrote: "The Ukrainian military has effectively integrated drones into combined arms warfare" and they are "particularly valuable in a contested environment to improve battlefield awareness without risking loss of life."

Ukrainian small units knew tanks need fuel. StrategyPage.com wrote that Ukrainians focused on attacking "supply trucks and vehicles transporting maintenance personnel." As a result, Russian combat vehicles "could not refuel." Stalled on the road, Ukrainian anti-tank teams and artillery decimated the Russian columns.

Western weapons mattered and still matter. The American-made Javelin anti-tank missile and Stinger anti-aircraft missile have performed superbly.

Ukrainian soldiers and their leaders know how to fight as combined arms teams. That's a huge edge.

About the author:
https://austinbay.net/about/

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #1195 on: March 03, 2023, 08:52:25 AM »
Nice find on Vindeman.

DougMacG

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Re: Ukraine, VDH comments
« Reply #1196 on: March 03, 2023, 09:17:02 AM »
"Americans sympathize with Ukraine’s plight as Vladimir Putin seeks to destroy its autonomy. But woke brooked no deviation from the party line that Ukraine’s Volodomyr Zelenskyy is a saint, while Russia is near bankrupt due to sanctions, and doomed to lose the war.

Accordingly, the United States was obligated to give Ukraine a veritable blank check given Kyiv’s commitment to freedom. Zelenskyy’s team now even talks of a victorious Ukrainian armored counteroffensive into Moscow’s Red Square.

This week, however, we are learning the Russian economy is nearly as strong now as it was before the war. It has mobilized 700,000 troops to ensure that eastern Ukraine becomes a Verdun-like killing field where tens of thousands more will be ground up.

Ukraine bars dissidents and maintains a government media monopoly. And the more Joe Biden promises another $2-3 billion in biweekly aid, the more Zelenskyy acts as if it is a pittance given what supposedly stingy Americans should be capable of supplying."
  - VDH from 'woke wrecking machine'
--------------------------
(Doug's position)
Help Ukraine but NOT a blank check.
Audit and track our money and arms.
Stop when the Ukrainian people want to stop, (not Zelensky).
Zelensky is far from perfect.
Putin is pure evil.
This war is Putin's doing, but came out of Biden (and Obama) weakness.