Author Topic: Ukraine  (Read 224236 times)

ccp

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #450 on: March 06, 2022, 12:59:01 PM »
Some good points Doug

It was Trump who complemented him as a "genius"

not me

as for him not being a "victim"

yes , but knowing him, we certainly did keep encircling him
that could have been predicted we would sooner or later provoke him to turn to  the war option

Perhaps he would have done this anyway , I don't know.

I don't want this to spiral out of control

How many wars unfold as planned?




« Last Edit: March 06, 2022, 01:01:07 PM by ccp »

G M

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #451 on: March 06, 2022, 01:37:20 PM »
THIS is why the CIA propaganda is omnipresent in the MSM (Including the allegedly conservative media) and social media while the oppression and real threat from China is ignored as the DC Uniparty "elites" are being paid off by the PRC.



From ZH

For full story https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2022-03-04/what-isnt-being-talked-about

DougMacG

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #452 on: March 06, 2022, 01:41:35 PM »
Some good points Doug

It was Trump who complemented him as a "genius"

not me

as for him not being a "victim"

yes , but knowing him, we certainly did keep encircling him
that could have been predicted we would sooner or later provoke him to turn to  the war option

Perhaps he would have done this anyway , I don't know.

I don't want this to spiral out of control

How many wars unfold as planned?

Right, you ripped Trump for calling Putin a genius, but I took what he said in the context that Trump clearly believes what Putin is doing is terrible, "wouldn't have happened under him".  Putin is a genius in small world  tactics within his wrong-headed worldview that you only improve your lot by taking from others.  Genius compared to Biden Harris and genius in the sense that we should stop underestimating our adversaries.




G M

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #453 on: March 06, 2022, 01:44:16 PM »
Some good points Doug

It was Trump who complemented him as a "genius"

not me

as for him not being a "victim"

yes , but knowing him, we certainly did keep encircling him
that could have been predicted we would sooner or later provoke him to turn to  the war option

Perhaps he would have done this anyway , I don't know.

I don't want this to spiral out of control

How many wars unfold as planned?

Right, you ripped Trump for calling Putin a genius, but I took what he said in the context that Trump clearly believes what Putin is doing is terrible, "wouldn't have happened under him".  Putin is a genius in small world  tactics within his wrong-headed worldview that you only improve your lot by taking from others.  Genius compared to Biden Harris and genius in the sense that we should stop underestimating our adversaries.

Putin has taken a weak hand (Aside from nukes) and played it quite well. Of course, our lame and feckless western leaders have been his biggest asset.



G M

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Crafty_Dog

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #457 on: March 06, 2022, 02:10:15 PM »
GM:

Why the eye roll on the Nazi symbols on the helmets?

G M

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #458 on: March 06, 2022, 02:15:20 PM »
GM:

Why the eye roll on the Nazi symbols on the helmets?

Ever see a gathering of outlaw bikers?

G M

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Crafty_Dog

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #460 on: March 06, 2022, 02:42:19 PM »
Ummm, given the history of Ukraine, I'm going to reject that argument as unresponsive.

G M

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #461 on: March 06, 2022, 02:46:56 PM »
Ummm, given the history of Ukraine, I'm going to reject that argument as unresponsive.

If someone wears a symbol, you have to know what the symbol means to them, NOT what it means to you.

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #462 on: March 06, 2022, 02:48:56 PM »
Duh.

And given Ukraine's deep and extensive history of anti-semitism, I'm saying they know EXACTLY what it means.

G M

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #463 on: March 06, 2022, 02:53:01 PM »
Duh.

And given Ukraine's deep and extensive history of anti-semitism, I'm saying they know EXACTLY what it means.

Yes, those pogroms took place long before the formation of the German Socialist Worker's Party and their adoption of the swastika, yes?

A snippet of data without context is useless for analytical purposes, but it is useful for those trying to manipulate an audience emotionally.


G M

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #464 on: March 06, 2022, 03:08:47 PM »
Ummm, given the history of Ukraine, I'm going to reject that argument as unresponsive.

If someone wears a symbol, you have to know what the symbol means to them, NOT what it means to you.

https://lp.post.ca.gov/post/resources/resources/LASD/Inmate-Tattoos-LES-FOUO.pdf

See page 195 from the above document.

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #465 on: March 06, 2022, 03:16:27 PM »
I've been having extensive FB sidebar conversation with the wife of one of my top students- they are observant Jews and raising their children as such.

Her parents were Uke Jews who fled to Russia where she was born and raised.  Russian is her first language and she now teaches history at the high school level in a private NYC school.

I don't have the time and energy to collate everything she has shared with me, but there is A LOT and plenty of it is NOT ancient history.

That said, this just happened to cross my radar screen.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/the-risks-of-arming-ukraines-azov-battalion_4311731.html?utm_source=News&utm_campaign=breaking-2022-03-06-2&utm_medium=email&est=xVKLce9yNWWMwz4EyXhptvLxAI4OP2Rwykww0XyLeG%2B%2FqEtR0v3Bet7JvOsnJUhTcBgA

G M

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #466 on: March 06, 2022, 03:33:09 PM »
I've been having extensive FB sidebar conversation with the wife of one of my top students- they are observant Jews and raising their children as such.

Her parents were Uke Jews who fled to Russia where she was born and raised.  Russian is her first language and she now teaches history at the high school level in a private NYC school.

I don't have the time and energy to collate everything she has shared with me, but there is A LOT and plenty of it is NOT ancient history.

That said, this just happened to cross my radar screen.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/the-risks-of-arming-ukraines-azov-battalion_4311731.html?utm_source=News&utm_campaign=breaking-2022-03-06-2&utm_medium=email&est=xVKLce9yNWWMwz4EyXhptvLxAI4OP2Rwykww0XyLeG%2B%2FqEtR0v3Bet7JvOsnJUhTcBgA

Good article.

From 2014

https://www.algemeiner.com/2014/06/24/ukraine-jewish-billionaires-batallion-sent-to-fight-pro-russian-militias/




Crafty_Dog

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Sent by a Uke-Russian Jew friend
« Reply #469 on: March 08, 2022, 08:56:38 PM »

G M

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Re: Sent by a Uke-Russian Jew friend
« Reply #470 on: March 09, 2022, 02:18:56 AM »


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy910FG46C4

https://www.algemeiner.com/2014/06/24/ukraine-jewish-billionaires-batallion-sent-to-fight-pro-russian-militias/

Ukraine: Batallion Backed by Jewish Billionaire Sent to Fight Pro-Russian Militias
avatarby Dave Bender

Ukrainian international businessman, Igor Kolomoisky. Photo: eajc.org.

Despite cease-fire declarations, pro-Ukrainian and pro-Russian militias are still reportedly clashing at several locations in south-eastern Ukraine.

Among those going into battle from the Ukrainian side are some 500 trained fighters in the self-declared Azov battalion, backed by Jewish energy magnate and Dnipropetrovsk region governor, Igor Kolomoisky, according to Israel’s Ma’ariv daily.

I see. A neo-nazi group funded by *checks notes* a Jewish billionaire who became a Israeli citizen and now lives in Israel.

Seems legit.




Crafty_Dog

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #471 on: March 09, 2022, 04:00:49 AM »
Noted that the article is from 2014.  Have things changed in the eight years since?

Will report back what my Uke-Russian Jew friend has to say about this.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2022, 04:03:54 AM by Crafty_Dog »

Crafty_Dog

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #472 on: March 09, 2022, 07:07:02 AM »
My friend responds:

I didn't realize Kolomoisky is Jewish. He is the one who sponsored Zelensky's campaign..part of the reason Zelensky was losing popularity before the war started was bc he was backed by a Russian oligarch. Interesting...

Russian speaking I should say. Not Russian..

But he has a reputation for being very corrupt. He owns the media company where Zelensky had his show where he played a teacher who suddenly became a president of Ukraine.

He and Timoshenko were allies at one point. These people made money ny basically robbing everyone blind when privatization happened in the early 90s. She was jailed for some type of corruption but made is seem like it was a political thing bc she fought for democracy. I honestly don't think any of these people care about Ukraine. They are just as bad as Russia's oligarchs and just want a government that will close its eyes to their corruption. It's a game of thrones there, not a nascent democracy. Neither Russia nor Ukraine are ready for that bc while the cuties are very developed, the rural population still lives in the 18 century. I really wish US would have stayed out of there bc now everyone will suffer,  Ukraine most of all.

I really wish he wasn't Jewish lol. Not a good look for us.
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G M

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #473 on: March 09, 2022, 07:34:11 AM »
Ukraine is a Eastern European mafiya-ocracy. Makes Mexico look like Belgium.

My friend responds:

I didn't realize Kolomoisky is Jewish. He is the one who sponsored Zelensky's campaign..part of the reason Zelensky was losing popularity before the war started was bc he was backed by a Russian oligarch. Interesting...

Russian speaking I should say. Not Russian..

But he has a reputation for being very corrupt. He owns the media company where Zelensky had his show where he played a teacher who suddenly became a president of Ukraine.

He and Timoshenko were allies at one point. These people made money ny basically robbing everyone blind when privatization happened in the early 90s. She was jailed for some type of corruption but made is seem like it was a political thing bc she fought for democracy. I honestly don't think any of these people care about Ukraine. They are just as bad as Russia's oligarchs and just want a government that will close its eyes to their corruption. It's a game of thrones there, not a nascent democracy. Neither Russia nor Ukraine are ready for that bc while the cuties are very developed, the rural population still lives in the 18 century. I really wish US would have stayed out of there bc now everyone will suffer,  Ukraine most of all.

I really wish he wasn't Jewish lol. Not a good look for us.
===============================

ccp

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #474 on: March 09, 2022, 07:38:41 AM »
".I really wish US would have stayed out of there bc now everyone will suffer,  Ukraine most of all."

interesting

could he be more specific

stay out how?



Crafty_Dog

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #475 on: March 09, 2022, 08:26:48 AM »
She starts from a point of view that Putin/Russia were misunderstood.  Strongly disapproves of what Putin has done.

Crafty_Dog

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ET: Ten years of American fukkery in Ukraine
« Reply #476 on: March 10, 2022, 03:06:52 AM »
https://www.theepochtimes.com/before-russias-invasion-of-ukraine-a-decade-of-destabilization_4316990.html?utm_source=Opinion&utm_campaign=opinion-2022-03-09&utm_medium=email&est=%2Bqxu%2BDUNGu8eCZYSGT69Ns14oYtieKUe9gCtosFWn%2FziyTM7KIK9%2FovkGBjAa3KF6H%2B4

Before Russia’s Invasion of Ukraine, a Decade of Destabilization
How top US officials played key roles in destabilizing Ukraine, damaging US–Russia relations
By Jeff Carlson and Hans Mahncke March 4, 2022 Updated: March 8, 2022biggersmaller Print
News Analysis

As war rages in Ukraine following the invasion by Russia, the realities on the ground are difficult to assess—it’s estimated that thousands have been killed, including hundreds of civilians, and 2 million have been forced to flee their homes.

Although Russian President Vladimir Putin is rightly deserving of blame, top U.S. officials over the past decade have played important roles in critical events that undermined U.S. relations with Russia and resulted in the destabilization of Ukraine.

The deterioration in our relations with Russia, in many ways, started with President George W. Bush in 2008, when he dangled before Ukraine the promise of NATO membership during the Bucharest declaration, boldly claiming, “We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO.”

The promise of NATO membership for Ukraine is something that has never been taken lightly by Russia, which has remained resolutely opposed to any NATO expansion along its borders.

In 1990, U.S. Secretary of State James Baker and German Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher had promised the Kremlin not to expand NATO eastward in return for German unification. However, in the decades that followed that promise, NATO incorporated 14 additional Eastern European countries.

In his 2020 memoir, Joe Biden’s current CIA director, Bill Burns, explicitly warned about the dangers posed by Ukraine gaining NATO membership, citing his own words in 2008 to then-Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice: “Ukrainian entry into NATO is the brightest of all redlines for the Russian elite (not just Putin).​”

“In more than two and a half years of conversations with key Russian players, from knuckle-draggers in the dark recesses of the Kremlin to Putin’s sharpest liberal critics, I have yet to find anyone who views Ukraine in NATO as anything other than a direct challenge to Russian interests,” he wrote.

Ukraine’s Longstanding Political Troubles
In addition to its geographic importance as a centuries-old buffer territory between the East and West, Ukraine is a resource-rich country with an abundance of agriculture exports and large supplies of minerals, iron ore, and coal.

Yet Ukraine’s political upheavals and influence from powerful oligarchs have meant that it’s also one of the poorest countries in Europe. Ukraine’s per-capita nominal gross domestic product stands at around $3,500 compared to the European average of $31,000. Rampant governmental corruption has only served to make a difficult situation worse.

Ukraine has been through two significant revolutions since it gained independence in 1991. The first revolution occurred in 2004, when the apparent winner of the presidential election, Viktor Yanukovych, a candidate favored by Russia, was unseated. Yanukovych made a political comeback in 2010 when he again won the presidential election.

However, Yanukovych was deposed yet again in February 2014, when a U.S.-supported coup installed a new government in Ukraine. Arseniy Yatsenyuk, the candidate pushed by the United States, was installed as prime minister, but would resign two years later amid corruption accusations.

While the 2014 Maidan Revolution has been portrayed as a triumph of democracy over oppression, such a characterization ignores the fact that the resulting coup culminated in the removal of a democratically elected leader of Ukraine.

Ukraine, which became a focal point of a new cold war with Russia, led many U.S. officials to willfully ignore a dangerous rise in fascist sentiments and neo-Nazi movements within the country.

Andriy Parubiy, co-founder of the fascist Social-National Party of Ukraine (SNPU), served as the chairman of the Ukrainian parliament from April 2016 until August 2019. The ideology of Parubiy’s SNPU, which he co-founded in 1991 with Oleh Tyahnybok, now the current leader of the ultranationalist Svoboda party, was radical nationalism and neo-Nazism.

Parubiy was the “commander” of the Maidan Revolution, which led the various Maidan paramilitary units, and his forces played a material role in the U.S.-backed coup that led to the overthrow of Yanukovych.

The growth of a fascist movement in a country that was serving as the battleground for a new cold war between the U.S. and Russia should have raised many alarms. But rather than distancing themselves from these elements, Western leaders appeared to embrace them.

Indeed, then-U.S. Sen. John McCain met with ultranationalist leader Tyahnybok in the lead-up to the 2014 coup, and Vice President Joe Biden met with Tyahnybok shortly thereafter in April 2014. In June 2017, Parubiy was inexplicably invited to Washington, where he met with a number of American politicians, including McCain and House Speaker Paul Ryan.

Vice President Biden Becomes Ukraine Point Man
It was during events surrounding the February 2014 coup that Biden, then-vice president to Barack Obama, made his first appearance as a Ukraine power broker. Biden had been appointed as the Obama administration’s point man on Ukraine in early 2014.

An intercepted phone conversation between Victoria Nuland, who at the time was assistant secretary for European and Eurasian affairs in the Obama State Department, and then-U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt revealed that the State Department was actively pursuing the ouster of Yanukovych and the installation of opposition leader Yatsenyuk as prime minister. It isn’t known exactly when their discussion took place, only that it transpired prior to Feb. 7, 2014, when the conversation was leaked.

During that leaked discussion, Nuland noted that Jake Sullivan, the national security adviser to Vice President Biden, had informed her that “you need Biden” for the successful installation of Yatsenyuk, and Nuland concluded by telling Pyatt that “Biden’s willing.” Sullivan now serves as the national security adviser to President Biden.

Just two weeks later, on Feb. 22, 2014, Yanukovych was removed as president of Ukraine; within days, Yatsenyuk, Nuland’s preferred candidate, was installed as prime minister of Ukraine.

The U.S. government had effectively assisted in the removal of a democratically elected leader that was friendly to Russia with the installation of a leader who was selected by the United States.

The Kremlin, watching these events unfold, didn’t wait long to react, annexing Crimea a few days later.

Prosecutor Investigating Ukrainian Oligarch Is Fired
One of the members of Yanukovych’s government who lost his position in government as a result of the coup was Mykola Zlochevsky, the owner of Burisma Energy.

He had first served as minister of ecology and natural resources and later as deputy secretary for economic and social security. While he held power in government, Zlochevsky’s companies reportedly received an unusually large number of permits to extract oil and gas.

In April 2014, UK prosecutors seized $23.5 million in assets owned by Zlochevsky that were held at a London bank, alleging that Zlochevsky had engaged in criminal conduct in Ukraine.

Following the sudden loss of Zlochevsky’s government position, Burisma appointed Biden’s son, Hunter, to its board of directors. In addition to Hunter, Burisma also appointed Devon Archer, a Hunter Biden associate who was jailed in February 2022 in New York for his role in a scheme to defraud a Native American tribe of $60 million.

Both Hunter Biden and Archer were hired in April 2014 around the time Zlochevsky’s funds were seized in London. Although Hunter’s appointment wasn’t announced until May 12, 2014, Burisma posted a picture of Archer and Joe Biden on its website on April 17, 2014. The picture had been taken a day earlier at the White House.

During Hunter’s first year at Burisma, the company allegedly paid a $7 million bribe to Ukraine’s chief prosecutors’ office to help shut the UK investigation into Zlochevsky, according to a State Department email. The Ukrainian prosecutor’s office subsequently sent a letter to its UK counterparts stating there was no longer an active case against Zlochevsky. UK prosecutors were then forced to release Zlochevsky’s previously seized funds.

Notably, at the time the alleged bribe was paid in late 2014, Hunter Biden was listed by Burisma as the head of the company’s legal unit. The chief prosecutor, Vitaly Yarema, had previously served as the first vice prime minister of Ukraine following the 2014 U.S.-led coup. Yarema suddenly resigned in February 2015, barely two months later. Yarema’s replacement, Viktor Shokin, was brought out of retirement to become prosecutor general of Ukraine.

Initially, Shokin’s appointment was welcomed by U.S. officials, although he suddenly fell out of U.S. favor in late 2015—around the same time the head of Burisma’s board, Vadym Pozharskyi, emailed Hunter Biden on Nov. 2, 2015. In the email, Pozharskyi pressed Hunter Biden to produce “deliverables,” stating that the “ultimate purpose” was to “close down any cases or pursuits” against Burisma owner Zlochevsky in Ukraine.

Less than three weeks later, Joe Biden began demanding the removal of Shokin, who by this time had restarted the investigation into Zlochevsky and had also successfully sought an order from Ukrainian courts to seize Zlochevsky’s assets. Less than seven weeks after the seizure of Zlochevsky’s assets, on March 29, 2016, Shokin was fired.

Biden later famously bragged that he had leveraged $1 billion in U.S. government loan guarantees to force Shokin’s removal. To this day, Shokin has never been charged with any wrongdoing.

Joe Biden was privately warned by Amos Hochstein, a U.S. special envoy, about Hunter’s association with a corrupt oligarch. Biden is said to have ignored the warnings.

Clinton Campaign’s RussiaGate Hoax Further Impaired Relations
It was against this political backdrop, with Ukraine destabilized and Russia angered by a U.S.-backed coup, that Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign made the fateful decision to accuse Russia of interfering in the 2016 presidential election for the purposes of helping then-candidate Donald Trump. Clinton and her campaign’s politically driven accusations further impaired already-strained U.S.–Russia relations, and the effects of her actions are being felt to this day.

The use of Russia for the attack on Trump was two-pronged. First, the Clinton campaign hired British ex-spy Christopher Steele to write a fabricated dossier that portrayed Trump as a compromised puppet of the Kremlin. In order to provide backing for the dossier’s claims, operatives created a false data trail that purported to show communications between Trump and the Kremlin. In doing so, the Clinton campaign’s operatives fabricated false evidence of collusion between a candidate for president and the Kremlin.

These actions would continue after Trump became president, as evidenced by a Clinton campaign lawyer’s visit to the CIA to hand over more data from these same operatives in February 2017, as revealed in a court filing by special counsel John Durham.

But it wasn’t only the political campaign of Clinton that was making these accusations. The Intelligence Community, acting in a dangerous geopolitical game, assisted the Clinton campaign by backing her claims that Russia was interfering in our elections in order to help Trump.

The Clinton campaign’s creation of the false Trump–Russia collusion narrative, which culminated in the inclusion of Steele’s fictitious dossier in an official intelligence community assessment, effectively tied Trump’s hands with respect to dealings with Russia—raising serious national security implications.

The resulting myopic focus on Russia also shifted our nation’s attention away from a far more dangerous adversary, the Chinese Communist Party (CCP).

False Claims of Russia Laptop Plot
Four years later, during the 2020 presidential election, the Biden campaign introduced its own claims that Russia was meddling in the election, again in order to assist Trump.

When Hunter Biden’s abandoned hard drive emerged in the months preceding the election, it contained a litany of damaging emails and other incriminating information on the Biden family, including the Nov. 2, 2015, email from the head of Burisma’s board demanding that Hunter Biden shut down the investigations into Burisma’s owner. The laptop also contained other damaging information, including the younger Biden’s entanglements with the CCP.

Although the corporate media and major social media platforms immediately restricted—or in some cases, outright banned—sharing of articles regarding the laptop story, Trump publicly raised the issue during the second presidential debate on Oct. 22, 2020. In response, Biden chose to blame Russia for the emergence of his son’s hard drive.

Biden’s assertion traced back to similar claims from the highest levels of our intelligence community, including former CIA Director John Brennan, who claimed in a joint statement that Hunter Biden’s laptop “has all the classic earmarks of a Russian information operation.”

As it turned out later, the Hunter emails were authentic and not a Russian plot.

Adding to an already tense geopolitical situation, Biden held out NATO membership to Ukraine as recently as December, as did his secretary of state, Antony Blinken. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin went even further, saying the door was open to Ukraine for NATO membership during an October 2021 trip to Ukraine.

These promises, which were sure to provoke Russia, lay in stark contrast to the warnings from Biden’s own CIA director, who had previously stated that NATO membership for Ukraine was the “brightest of all red lines” for Russia.

The overarching national security goal of the United States should have centered around preventing Russia and China from forming further alliances. The vilification of Russia, driven in part by the self-serving actions of top U.S. officials such as Clinton and Biden, seriously undermined that goal.

With the outbreak of war in Ukraine and consequent total isolation of Russia from the West, that goal is no longer attainable.

The likely outcome is that Russia and China will grow even closer.


G M

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Re: Ukes fukk up Russki tank column
« Reply #478 on: March 10, 2022, 07:13:07 AM »
https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/03/russian-armored-convoy-ambush-feat-image.jpg?quality=90&strip=all

This is why armor is supposed to work in conjunction with infantry. Tanks are big and scary and lethal, but they need lots of fuel and the tank crew has to take a piss every so often...



DougMacG

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Re: Ukraine, VDH
« Reply #481 on: March 17, 2022, 04:57:36 AM »
VDH made a point regarding China, Russia and Ukraine that I tried to paraphrase earlier. 

4.  China is now pro-Russian. Beijing wants Russian natural resources at a discount. Russia will pay for overpriced access to Chinese finance, commerce, and markets. Yet if Russia loses the Ukraine war, goes broke, and as an international pariah is ostracized, then China will likely cut the smelly Russian albatross from its neck — in fear of new Western financial, cultural, and commercial clout.

https://jewishworldreview.com/0322/hanson031722.php

(Read his 10 pts on Ukraine at link.  I hesitate to excerpt when all of it is full of wisdom.)

2.  No-fly zones don't work in a big-power, symmetrical standoff. In a cost-benefit analysis, they are not worth the risk of shooting down the planes of a nuclear power. They usually do little to stop planes outside of such zones shooting missiles into them. Sending long-range, high-altitude anti-aircraft batteries to Ukraine to deny Russian air superiority is a far better way of regaining air parity.

8. It is not "escalation" to send arms to Ukraine. The Russians far more aggressively supplied the North Koreans and North Vietnamese in their wars against America, without spreading the war globally. Pakistan, Syria, and Iran sent deadly weapons — many in turn supplied to them by Russia, North Korea, and China — to kill thousands of Americans during the Afghanistan and Iraq wars.

10.   It is not "un-American" to point out that prior American appeasement under the Obama and the Biden Administrations explains not why Putin wished to go into Ukraine, but why he felt he could. It is not "treasonous" to say Ukraine and the United States previously should have stayed out of each other's domestic affairs and politics — but still do not excuse Putin's savage aggression. It is not traitorous to admit that Russia for centuries relied on buffer states between Europe — lost when its Warsaw Pact satellite members joined NATO after its defeat in the Cold War. But that reality also does not justify Putin's savage attack.

We should not rehash the past but learn from it — and thereby ensure Putin is defeated now and deterred in the future
« Last Edit: March 17, 2022, 07:19:33 AM by DougMacG »

DougMacG

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #482 on: March 17, 2022, 05:58:33 AM »
Our fear of provoking and escalating is provoking and escalating.

ccp

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Ann Coulter on Ukraine media blitz
« Reply #483 on: March 17, 2022, 06:15:22 AM »
https://anncoulter.com/2022/03/16/dem-nightmare-what-if-the-war-ends-before-november/

Rudy Guliani had it right in my view on radio last afternoon

yes it is terrible what is happening to Ukrainian people
but instituting a no fly zone
while not likely to lead to nukes
is a risk not worth taking

lets see roll the dice - if we lose - nuclear bombs going off.

seem like a good idea
not to him
and not to me

we need to stay the hell out of it.


DougMacG

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #484 on: March 17, 2022, 06:58:19 AM »
BREAKING: Biden says Putin is a "war criminal."

This rhetoric is a mistake by the United States.

We should be trying to create offramps in Ukraine - not boxing Putin into a corner by flirting with regime change in Russia.

   - A tweet captured at Instapundit

ccp

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #485 on: March 17, 2022, 07:07:49 AM »
Doug writes:

"BREAKING: Biden says Putin is a "war criminal."

This rhetoric is a mistake by the United States."

Calling despots names .....  the strategy
 of the Dems and their lawyers

Just think of all the lawsuits and business that could be generated with by suing Russia, Putin , and throw in a few rich "oligarchs"

In a similar line of thinking

lets state China is on the wrong side of history (whatever the BS line means)
from the most powerful SOS in US history:

https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2022/03/17/blinken-on-ability-to-isolate-china-chinas-already-on-the-wrong-side-of-history-and-is-hurting-its-reputation/



Crafty_Dog

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Ukes kick Russki as in Voznesensk
« Reply #488 on: March 17, 2022, 09:52:36 PM »
A Ukrainian Town Deals Russia One of the War’s Most Decisive Routs
In the two-day battle of Voznesensk, local volunteers and the military repelled the invaders, who fled leaving behind armor and dead soldiers
Ukrainian troops in Voznesensk on Tuesday.
By Yaroslav Trofimov
Follow
 / Photographs by Manu Brabo for The Wall Street Journal
March 16, 2022 11:37 am ET


VOZNESENSK, Ukraine—A Kalashnikov rifle slung over his shoulder, Voznesensk’s funeral director, Mykhailo Sokurenko, spent this Tuesday driving through fields and forests, picking up dead Russian soldiers and taking them to a freezer railway car piled with Russian bodies—the casualties of one of the most comprehensive routs President Vladimir Putin’s forces have suffered since he ordered the invasion of Ukraine.

A rapid Russian advance into the strategic southern town of 35,000 people, a gateway to a Ukrainian nuclear power station and pathway to attack Odessa from the back, would have showcased the Russian military’s abilities and severed Ukraine’s key communications lines.

Instead, the two-day battle of Voznesensk, details of which are only now emerging, turned decisively against the Russians. Judging from the destroyed and abandoned armor, Ukrainian forces, which comprised local volunteers and the professional military, eliminated most of a Russian battalion tactical group on March 2 and 3.

The Ukrainian defenders’ performance against a much-better-armed enemy in an overwhelmingly Russian-speaking region was successful in part because of widespread popular support for the Ukrainian cause—one reason the Russian invasion across the country has failed to achieve its principal goals so far. Ukraine on Wednesday said it was launching a counteroffensive on several fronts.

“Everyone is united against the common enemy,” said Voznesensk’s 32-year-old mayor, Yevheni Velichko, a former real-estate developer turned wartime commander, who, like other local officials, moves around with a gun. “We are defending our own land. We are at home.”


Voznesensk Mayor Yevheni Velichko, left, atop a bridge Ukrainian military engineers blew up.
The Russian military says its Ukraine offensive is developing successfully and according to plan. Moscow hasn’t released updated casualty figures since acknowledging on March 2 the death of 498 troops, before the Voznesensk battle.

Russian survivors of the Voznesensk battle left behind nearly 30 of their 43 vehicles—tanks, armored personnel carriers, multiple-rocket launchers, trucks—as well as a downed Mi-24 attack helicopter, according to Ukrainian officials in the city. The helicopter’s remnants and some pieces of burned-out Russian armor were still scattered around Voznesensk on Tuesday.

Russian forces retreated more than 40 miles to the southeast, where other Ukrainian units have continued pounding them. Some dispersed in nearby forests, where local officials said 10 soldiers have been captured.

“We didn’t have a single tank against them, just rocket-propelled grenades, Javelin missiles and the help of artillery,” said Vadym Dombrovsky, commander of the Ukrainian special-forces reconnaissance group in the area and a Voznesensk resident. “The Russians didn’t expect us to be so strong. It was a surprise for them. If they had taken Voznesensk, they would have cut off the whole south of Ukraine.”

Ukrainian officers estimated that some 100 Russian troops died in Voznesensk, including those whose bodies were taken by retreating Russian troops or burned inside carbonized vehicles. As of Tuesday, 11 dead Russian soldiers were in the railway car turned morgue, with search parties looking for other bodies in nearby forests. Villagers buried some others.



A Russian soldier’s body before transfer to the Voznesensk morgue.

Bodies of Russian soldiers in the freezer train car turned morgue.
“Sometimes, I wish I could put these bodies on a plane and drop them all onto Moscow, so they realize what is happening here,” said Mr. Sokurenko, the funeral director, as he put Tuesday’s fifth Russian cadaver on blue-plastic sheeting inside his van marked “Cargo 200”—Soviet military slang for killed in action. A Ukrainian military explosives specialist accompanied him, because some bodies had been booby trapped.

About 10 Ukrainian civilians died in Voznesensk during the combat and two more after hitting a land mine afterward, local officials said. Ukraine doesn’t disclose its military losses. There were fatalities, mostly among the Territorial Defense volunteer forces, local residents said.

The Russian operation to seize Voznesensk, 20 miles from the South Ukrainian Nuclear Power Plant, was ambitious and well-equipped. It began after Russian forces fanned out of the Crimean Peninsula, which Moscow severed from Ukraine and annexed in 2014, and thrust northward to seize the regional capital of Kherson on March 1. They pushed to the edge of Mykolaiv, the last major city before Odessa, Ukraine’s main port.

About 55 miles north of Mykolaiv, Voznesensk offered an alternative bridge over the Southern Bug river and access to the main highway linking Odessa with the rest of Ukraine. Russian forces raced toward the town at the same time as they made a successful push northeast to seize the city of Enerhodar, where another major Ukrainian nuclear power plant is located. Voznesensk’s fall would have made defending the nuclear plant to the north of here nearly impossible, military officials said.


The Battle of Voznesensk

South Ukraine

nuclear facility

UKRAINE

Area of detail

Controlled by or

allied to Russia

3

Detail below

Voznesensk

MYKOLAIV OBLAST

P06

2

P55

Connects

Voznesensk

and Odessa

ODESSA OBLAST

Mykolaiv

1

M14

Kherson

Controlled

by Russia

Odessa

Black Sea

On March 1, the Russian military column departs Kherson headed north and northeast.

To reach Odessa, the column must cross the Southern Bug in Mykolaiv or Voznesensk. The river runs in a deep canyon and can only be crossed via bridge.

1

2

VOZNESENSK

4

Bridge

destroyed

AREA OF BATTLE

Mertvovod R.

RAKOVE

3

The column reaches Voznesensk, where the bridge over the Mertvovod tributary of the Southern Bug has been destroyed by local forces, stopping the northward progression.

After two days of fighting, most of the column is destroyed. Survivors escape east toward Bashtanka.

3

4

Source: staff reports
Mayor Velichko worked with local businessmen to dig up the shores of the Mertvovod river that cuts through town so armored personnel vehicles couldn’t ford it. He got other businessmen who owned a quarry and a construction company to block off most streets to channel the Russian column into areas that would be easier to hit with artillery.

Ahead of the Russian advance, military engineers blew up the bridge over the Mertvovod and a railroad bridge on the town’s edge. Waiting for the Russians in and around Voznesensk were Ukrainian regular army troops and members of the Territorial Defense force, which Ukraine established in January, recruiting and arming volunteers to help protect local communities. Local witnesses, officials and Ukrainian combat participants recounted what happened next.

Missile strikes
The Russian assault began with missile strikes and shelling that hit central Voznesensk, destroying the municipal swimming pool and damaging high-rises. Helicopters dropped Russian air-assault troops in a forested ridge southwest of Voznesensk, as an armored column drove from the southeast. Mr. Velichko said a local collaborator with the Russians, a woman driving a Hyundai SUV, showed the Russian column a way through back roads.

Ukrainian officers estimate that some 400 Russian troops took part in the attack. The number would have been bigger if these forces—mostly from the 126th naval infantry brigade based in Perevalnoye, Crimea, according to seized documents—hadn’t come under heavy shelling along the way.

Natalia Horchuk, a 25-year-old mother of three, said Russian soldiers appeared in her garden in the village of Rakove in the Voznesensk municipality early March 2. They told her and neighbors to leave for their safety, and parked four tanks and infantry fighting vehicles between the houses. “Do you have anywhere to go?” she recalled them asking. “This place will be hit.”

“We can hide in the cellar,” she replied.


“The cellar won’t help you,” they told her. Hiding valuables, she and her family fled, as did most neighbors.


Children play near the shelled clinic in Rakove.

One of the Ukrainian troops inspecting ruined houses where Russian soldiers rested.
Outside Rakove, Volodymyr Kichuk, a guard at a walnut plantation, woke to find five Russian airborne troops in his hut. They took his phone and forced him to lie on the ground, said his wife, Hanna. “Once they realized there was nothing to steal, they told him: You can get up after we leave,” she said. By day’s end, the couple were gone from the village.

Russian soldiers took over villagers’ homes in Rakove and created a sniper position on a roof. They looked for sacks to fill with soil for fortifications, burned hay to create a smoke screen and demanded food.

A local woman who agreed to cook for the Russians is now under investigation, said Mr. Dombrovsky. “A traitor—she did it for money,” he said. “I don’t think the village will forgive her and let her live here.”

Downhill from Rakove, Russian forces set up base at a gas station at Voznesensk’s entrance. A Russian BTR infantry fighting vehicle drove up to the blown-up bridge over the Mertvovod, opening fire on the Territorial Defense base to the left. Five tanks, supported by a BTR, drove to a wheat field overlooking Voznesensk.

A group of Territorial Defense volunteers armed with Kalashnikovs was hiding in a building at that field’s edge. They didn’t have much of a chance against the BTR’s large-caliber machine gun, said Mykola Rudenko, one of the city’s Territorial Defense officers; some were killed, others escaped. Russian troops in two Ural trucks were preparing to assemble and set up 120mm mortars on the wheat field, but they got only as far as unloading the ammunition before Ukrainian shelling began.



Russian soldiers took over villagers’ homes during their advance on Voznesensk; above and below, Ukrainian troops inspect such houses in Rakove.

Phoning in coordinates
As darkness fell March 2, Mr. Rudenko, who owns a company transporting gravel and sand, took cover in a grove on the wheat field’s edge under pouring rain. The Russian tanks there would fire into Voznesensk and immediately drive a few hundred yards away to escape return fire, he said.

Mr. Rudenko was on the phone with a Ukrainian artillery unit. Sending coordinates via the Viber social-messaging app, he directed artillery fire at the Russians. So did other local Territorial Defense volunteers around the city. “Everyone helped,” he said. “Everyone shared the information.”

Ukrainian shelling blew craters in the field, and some Russian vehicles sustained direct hits. Other Ukrainian regular troops and Territorial Defense forces moved toward Russian positions on foot, hitting vehicles with U.S.-supplied Javelin missiles. As Russian armor caught fire—including three of the five tanks in the wheat field—soldiers abandoned functioning vehicles and escaped on foot or sped off in the BTRs that still had fuel. They left crates of ammunition.

Mr. Rudenko picked up a Russian conscript days later, he said, who served as an assistant artillery specialist at a Grad multiple-rocket launcher that attacked Voznesensk from a forest. The 18-year-old conscript, originally from eastern Ukraine and a Crimea resident since 2014, suffered a concussion after a Ukrainian shell hit near him. He woke the next morning, left his weapon and wandered into a village, Mr. Rudenko said. There, a woman took him into her home and called the village head, who informed Territorial Defense. “He’s still in shock about what happened to him,” Mr. Rudenko said.

Mr. Dombrovsky, the reconnaissance-unit commander, said he captured several soldiers in their early 20s and a 31-year-old senior lieutenant from the Russian military intelligence. The lieutenant, he said, had forced a private to swap uniforms but was discovered because of the age discrepancy—and because Ukrainian forces found Russian personnel files in the column’s command vehicle.

“The Russians had orders to come in, seize, and await further instructions,” Mr. Dombrovsky said. “But they had no orders for what to do if they are defeated. That, they didn’t plan for.”


Ukrainian troops in a village where the Russian forces camped in their advance toward Voznesensk.

Russian military gear from the Voznesensk battle.
Russian troops had detained a local man on March 2 after they found him to have binoculars, villagers said. “They had put him in a cellar and told him they will execute him in the morning, for correcting artillery fire,” Mr. Dombrovsky said, adding that the detainee wasn’t a spotter. “But in the morning they didn’t have time to execute him. They were too busy fleeing.”

The Russians retreat
As the Russian forces retreated on March 3, they shelled the downhill part of Rakove. A direct hit pierced the roof of the local clinic, where Mr. Dombrovsky’s mother, Raisa, worked as a nurse. “We’ve just built a new roof,” she sighed, showing the gaping hole. “But it doesn’t matter. The main thing is that we have kicked them out, and survived.”

When villagers returned to Rakove on March 4, they found their homes ransacked. “Blankets, cutlery, all gone. Lard, milk, cheese, also gone,” said Ms. Horchuk. “They didn’t take the potatoes because they didn’t have time to cook.”

This week, village homes still bore traces of Russian soldiers. Cupboards and closets were still flung open from looting, and Russian military rations and half-eaten jars of pickles and preserves littered floors.

The Ukrainian army’s 80th brigade was towing away the last remaining Russian BTRs with “Z” painted on their sides, the identification markers that in Russia have become the symbol of the invasion. About 15 Russian tanks and other vehicles were in working or salvageable condition, said Mr. Dombrovsky. “We are ready to hit the Russians with their own weapons,” he said. Others, mostly burned-out wrecks, were removed from streets because they scared civilians and contained ordnance, the mayor said.


A Ukrainian army truck tows a Russian armored vehicle in Voznesensk on Tuesday.

Ukrainian troops build a defensive position on Voznesensk’s outskirts.
Electricity, disrupted during combat, has returned in Voznesensk, as have internet, gas and water services. ATMs have been restocked with cash, supermarkets with food.

The only explosions are from bomb squads occasionally disposing ordnance. Mr. Velichko, the mayor, fielded citizen phone calls Tuesday, telling one he would take care of a possibly rabid dog and assuring another that her utilities wouldn’t be cut in wartime even if she was late in paying. He argued with an army commander because Ukrainian soldiers had siphoned fuel from the gas station.

Spartak Hukasian, head of the Voznesensk district council, said the city—no longer near front lines—was starting to get used to relatively peaceful life again. “He who laughs last laughs best,” he said. “We haven’t had a chance to laugh until now.”

Write to Yaroslav Trofimov at yaroslav.trofimov@wsj.com

Copyright ©2022 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved. 87990cbe856818d5eddac44c7b1cdeb8
Appeared in the March 17, 2022, print edition as 'A Ukrainian Town Deals Putin One of His Most Decisive Routs.'

G M

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Re: Ukes kick Russki as in Voznesensk
« Reply #489 on: March 17, 2022, 09:55:11 PM »
When Putin has the city bombed/shelled flat, it won't seem like such a victory.


A Ukrainian Town Deals Russia One of the War’s Most Decisive Routs
In the two-day battle of Voznesensk, local volunteers and the military repelled the invaders, who fled leaving behind armor and dead soldiers
Ukrainian troops in Voznesensk on Tuesday.
By Yaroslav Trofimov
Follow
 / Photographs by Manu Brabo for The Wall Street Journal
March 16, 2022 11:37 am ET


VOZNESENSK, Ukraine—A Kalashnikov rifle slung over his shoulder, Voznesensk’s funeral director, Mykhailo Sokurenko, spent this Tuesday driving through fields and forests, picking up dead Russian soldiers and taking them to a freezer railway car piled with Russian bodies—the casualties of one of the most comprehensive routs President Vladimir Putin’s forces have suffered since he ordered the invasion of Ukraine.

A rapid Russian advance into the strategic southern town of 35,000 people, a gateway to a Ukrainian nuclear power station and pathway to attack Odessa from the back, would have showcased the Russian military’s abilities and severed Ukraine’s key communications lines.

Instead, the two-day battle of Voznesensk, details of which are only now emerging, turned decisively against the Russians. Judging from the destroyed and abandoned armor, Ukrainian forces, which comprised local volunteers and the professional military, eliminated most of a Russian battalion tactical group on March 2 and 3.

The Ukrainian defenders’ performance against a much-better-armed enemy in an overwhelmingly Russian-speaking region was successful in part because of widespread popular support for the Ukrainian cause—one reason the Russian invasion across the country has failed to achieve its principal goals so far. Ukraine on Wednesday said it was launching a counteroffensive on several fronts.

“Everyone is united against the common enemy,” said Voznesensk’s 32-year-old mayor, Yevheni Velichko, a former real-estate developer turned wartime commander, who, like other local officials, moves around with a gun. “We are defending our own land. We are at home.”


Voznesensk Mayor Yevheni Velichko, left, atop a bridge Ukrainian military engineers blew up.
The Russian military says its Ukraine offensive is developing successfully and according to plan. Moscow hasn’t released updated casualty figures since acknowledging on March 2 the death of 498 troops, before the Voznesensk battle.

Russian survivors of the Voznesensk battle left behind nearly 30 of their 43 vehicles—tanks, armored personnel carriers, multiple-rocket launchers, trucks—as well as a downed Mi-24 attack helicopter, according to Ukrainian officials in the city. The helicopter’s remnants and some pieces of burned-out Russian armor were still scattered around Voznesensk on Tuesday.

Russian forces retreated more than 40 miles to the southeast, where other Ukrainian units have continued pounding them. Some dispersed in nearby forests, where local officials said 10 soldiers have been captured.

“We didn’t have a single tank against them, just rocket-propelled grenades, Javelin missiles and the help of artillery,” said Vadym Dombrovsky, commander of the Ukrainian special-forces reconnaissance group in the area and a Voznesensk resident. “The Russians didn’t expect us to be so strong. It was a surprise for them. If they had taken Voznesensk, they would have cut off the whole south of Ukraine.”

Ukrainian officers estimated that some 100 Russian troops died in Voznesensk, including those whose bodies were taken by retreating Russian troops or burned inside carbonized vehicles. As of Tuesday, 11 dead Russian soldiers were in the railway car turned morgue, with search parties looking for other bodies in nearby forests. Villagers buried some others.



A Russian soldier’s body before transfer to the Voznesensk morgue.

Bodies of Russian soldiers in the freezer train car turned morgue.
“Sometimes, I wish I could put these bodies on a plane and drop them all onto Moscow, so they realize what is happening here,” said Mr. Sokurenko, the funeral director, as he put Tuesday’s fifth Russian cadaver on blue-plastic sheeting inside his van marked “Cargo 200”—Soviet military slang for killed in action. A Ukrainian military explosives specialist accompanied him, because some bodies had been booby trapped.

About 10 Ukrainian civilians died in Voznesensk during the combat and two more after hitting a land mine afterward, local officials said. Ukraine doesn’t disclose its military losses. There were fatalities, mostly among the Territorial Defense volunteer forces, local residents said.

The Russian operation to seize Voznesensk, 20 miles from the South Ukrainian Nuclear Power Plant, was ambitious and well-equipped. It began after Russian forces fanned out of the Crimean Peninsula, which Moscow severed from Ukraine and annexed in 2014, and thrust northward to seize the regional capital of Kherson on March 1. They pushed to the edge of Mykolaiv, the last major city before Odessa, Ukraine’s main port.

About 55 miles north of Mykolaiv, Voznesensk offered an alternative bridge over the Southern Bug river and access to the main highway linking Odessa with the rest of Ukraine. Russian forces raced toward the town at the same time as they made a successful push northeast to seize the city of Enerhodar, where another major Ukrainian nuclear power plant is located. Voznesensk’s fall would have made defending the nuclear plant to the north of here nearly impossible, military officials said.


The Battle of Voznesensk

South Ukraine

nuclear facility

UKRAINE

Area of detail

Controlled by or

allied to Russia

3

Detail below

Voznesensk

MYKOLAIV OBLAST

P06

2

P55

Connects

Voznesensk

and Odessa

ODESSA OBLAST

Mykolaiv

1

M14

Kherson

Controlled

by Russia

Odessa

Black Sea

On March 1, the Russian military column departs Kherson headed north and northeast.

To reach Odessa, the column must cross the Southern Bug in Mykolaiv or Voznesensk. The river runs in a deep canyon and can only be crossed via bridge.

1

2

VOZNESENSK

4

Bridge

destroyed

AREA OF BATTLE

Mertvovod R.

RAKOVE

3

The column reaches Voznesensk, where the bridge over the Mertvovod tributary of the Southern Bug has been destroyed by local forces, stopping the northward progression.

After two days of fighting, most of the column is destroyed. Survivors escape east toward Bashtanka.

3

4

Source: staff reports
Mayor Velichko worked with local businessmen to dig up the shores of the Mertvovod river that cuts through town so armored personnel vehicles couldn’t ford it. He got other businessmen who owned a quarry and a construction company to block off most streets to channel the Russian column into areas that would be easier to hit with artillery.

Ahead of the Russian advance, military engineers blew up the bridge over the Mertvovod and a railroad bridge on the town’s edge. Waiting for the Russians in and around Voznesensk were Ukrainian regular army troops and members of the Territorial Defense force, which Ukraine established in January, recruiting and arming volunteers to help protect local communities. Local witnesses, officials and Ukrainian combat participants recounted what happened next.

Missile strikes
The Russian assault began with missile strikes and shelling that hit central Voznesensk, destroying the municipal swimming pool and damaging high-rises. Helicopters dropped Russian air-assault troops in a forested ridge southwest of Voznesensk, as an armored column drove from the southeast. Mr. Velichko said a local collaborator with the Russians, a woman driving a Hyundai SUV, showed the Russian column a way through back roads.

Ukrainian officers estimate that some 400 Russian troops took part in the attack. The number would have been bigger if these forces—mostly from the 126th naval infantry brigade based in Perevalnoye, Crimea, according to seized documents—hadn’t come under heavy shelling along the way.

Natalia Horchuk, a 25-year-old mother of three, said Russian soldiers appeared in her garden in the village of Rakove in the Voznesensk municipality early March 2. They told her and neighbors to leave for their safety, and parked four tanks and infantry fighting vehicles between the houses. “Do you have anywhere to go?” she recalled them asking. “This place will be hit.”

“We can hide in the cellar,” she replied.


“The cellar won’t help you,” they told her. Hiding valuables, she and her family fled, as did most neighbors.


Children play near the shelled clinic in Rakove.

One of the Ukrainian troops inspecting ruined houses where Russian soldiers rested.
Outside Rakove, Volodymyr Kichuk, a guard at a walnut plantation, woke to find five Russian airborne troops in his hut. They took his phone and forced him to lie on the ground, said his wife, Hanna. “Once they realized there was nothing to steal, they told him: You can get up after we leave,” she said. By day’s end, the couple were gone from the village.

Russian soldiers took over villagers’ homes in Rakove and created a sniper position on a roof. They looked for sacks to fill with soil for fortifications, burned hay to create a smoke screen and demanded food.

A local woman who agreed to cook for the Russians is now under investigation, said Mr. Dombrovsky. “A traitor—she did it for money,” he said. “I don’t think the village will forgive her and let her live here.”

Downhill from Rakove, Russian forces set up base at a gas station at Voznesensk’s entrance. A Russian BTR infantry fighting vehicle drove up to the blown-up bridge over the Mertvovod, opening fire on the Territorial Defense base to the left. Five tanks, supported by a BTR, drove to a wheat field overlooking Voznesensk.

A group of Territorial Defense volunteers armed with Kalashnikovs was hiding in a building at that field’s edge. They didn’t have much of a chance against the BTR’s large-caliber machine gun, said Mykola Rudenko, one of the city’s Territorial Defense officers; some were killed, others escaped. Russian troops in two Ural trucks were preparing to assemble and set up 120mm mortars on the wheat field, but they got only as far as unloading the ammunition before Ukrainian shelling began.



Russian soldiers took over villagers’ homes during their advance on Voznesensk; above and below, Ukrainian troops inspect such houses in Rakove.

Phoning in coordinates
As darkness fell March 2, Mr. Rudenko, who owns a company transporting gravel and sand, took cover in a grove on the wheat field’s edge under pouring rain. The Russian tanks there would fire into Voznesensk and immediately drive a few hundred yards away to escape return fire, he said.

Mr. Rudenko was on the phone with a Ukrainian artillery unit. Sending coordinates via the Viber social-messaging app, he directed artillery fire at the Russians. So did other local Territorial Defense volunteers around the city. “Everyone helped,” he said. “Everyone shared the information.”

Ukrainian shelling blew craters in the field, and some Russian vehicles sustained direct hits. Other Ukrainian regular troops and Territorial Defense forces moved toward Russian positions on foot, hitting vehicles with U.S.-supplied Javelin missiles. As Russian armor caught fire—including three of the five tanks in the wheat field—soldiers abandoned functioning vehicles and escaped on foot or sped off in the BTRs that still had fuel. They left crates of ammunition.

Mr. Rudenko picked up a Russian conscript days later, he said, who served as an assistant artillery specialist at a Grad multiple-rocket launcher that attacked Voznesensk from a forest. The 18-year-old conscript, originally from eastern Ukraine and a Crimea resident since 2014, suffered a concussion after a Ukrainian shell hit near him. He woke the next morning, left his weapon and wandered into a village, Mr. Rudenko said. There, a woman took him into her home and called the village head, who informed Territorial Defense. “He’s still in shock about what happened to him,” Mr. Rudenko said.

Mr. Dombrovsky, the reconnaissance-unit commander, said he captured several soldiers in their early 20s and a 31-year-old senior lieutenant from the Russian military intelligence. The lieutenant, he said, had forced a private to swap uniforms but was discovered because of the age discrepancy—and because Ukrainian forces found Russian personnel files in the column’s command vehicle.

“The Russians had orders to come in, seize, and await further instructions,” Mr. Dombrovsky said. “But they had no orders for what to do if they are defeated. That, they didn’t plan for.”


Ukrainian troops in a village where the Russian forces camped in their advance toward Voznesensk.

Russian military gear from the Voznesensk battle.
Russian troops had detained a local man on March 2 after they found him to have binoculars, villagers said. “They had put him in a cellar and told him they will execute him in the morning, for correcting artillery fire,” Mr. Dombrovsky said, adding that the detainee wasn’t a spotter. “But in the morning they didn’t have time to execute him. They were too busy fleeing.”

The Russians retreat
As the Russian forces retreated on March 3, they shelled the downhill part of Rakove. A direct hit pierced the roof of the local clinic, where Mr. Dombrovsky’s mother, Raisa, worked as a nurse. “We’ve just built a new roof,” she sighed, showing the gaping hole. “But it doesn’t matter. The main thing is that we have kicked them out, and survived.”

When villagers returned to Rakove on March 4, they found their homes ransacked. “Blankets, cutlery, all gone. Lard, milk, cheese, also gone,” said Ms. Horchuk. “They didn’t take the potatoes because they didn’t have time to cook.”

This week, village homes still bore traces of Russian soldiers. Cupboards and closets were still flung open from looting, and Russian military rations and half-eaten jars of pickles and preserves littered floors.

The Ukrainian army’s 80th brigade was towing away the last remaining Russian BTRs with “Z” painted on their sides, the identification markers that in Russia have become the symbol of the invasion. About 15 Russian tanks and other vehicles were in working or salvageable condition, said Mr. Dombrovsky. “We are ready to hit the Russians with their own weapons,” he said. Others, mostly burned-out wrecks, were removed from streets because they scared civilians and contained ordnance, the mayor said.


A Ukrainian army truck tows a Russian armored vehicle in Voznesensk on Tuesday.

Ukrainian troops build a defensive position on Voznesensk’s outskirts.
Electricity, disrupted during combat, has returned in Voznesensk, as have internet, gas and water services. ATMs have been restocked with cash, supermarkets with food.

The only explosions are from bomb squads occasionally disposing ordnance. Mr. Velichko, the mayor, fielded citizen phone calls Tuesday, telling one he would take care of a possibly rabid dog and assuring another that her utilities wouldn’t be cut in wartime even if she was late in paying. He argued with an army commander because Ukrainian soldiers had siphoned fuel from the gas station.

Spartak Hukasian, head of the Voznesensk district council, said the city—no longer near front lines—was starting to get used to relatively peaceful life again. “He who laughs last laughs best,” he said. “We haven’t had a chance to laugh until now.”

Write to Yaroslav Trofimov at yaroslav.trofimov@wsj.com

Copyright ©2022 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved. 87990cbe856818d5eddac44c7b1cdeb8
Appeared in the March 17, 2022, print edition as 'A Ukrainian Town Deals Putin One of His Most Decisive Routs.'

ccp

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #490 on: March 18, 2022, 05:14:23 AM »
"When Putin has the city bombed/shelled flat, it won't seem like such a victory."

and first thing is first after that happens. -

build a megayacht factory on the coast of the Black Sea
in Odessa





ccp

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VDH s 10 points
« Reply #494 on: March 18, 2022, 07:54:28 AM »
Agree with all but this :

"Yet if Russia loses the Ukraine war, goes broke and is ostracized as an international pariah, then China will likely cut the smelly Russian albatross from its neck — in fear of new Western financial, cultural and commercial clout."

I don't agree.
I think China will still be glad to get oil gas from Russia.


Crafty_Dog

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #496 on: March 18, 2022, 08:40:34 PM »
second

Despite Progress on 'Neutrality,' Larger Constraints to a Russia-Ukraine Peace Deal Remain
6 MIN READMar 18, 2022 | 20:05 GMT


Despite reports of progress in Russia-Ukraine talks regarding the latter's ''neutrality,'' Moscow's insistence that Kyiv also surrender significant territory means the two sides are unlikely to reach a peace deal soon. In the meantime, Russia will seek to increase its negotiating leverage by seizing more Ukrainian cities and regions, which will risk prolonging the conflict and further limiting room for a comprehensive deal. On March 16, reports emerged that Ukraine and Russia had made progress on the wording of a 15-point peace plan for a cease-fire and Russian withdrawal of troops, as well as a mutually acceptable vision of neutrality including limits on its armed forces. But this does not represent a major change in Ukraine's position nor a major step toward ending the war. The topic of Ukraine's neutrality is the least controversial for Kyiv among Russia's demands because the Ukrainian government has accepted that its NATO aspirations have failed to protect Ukraine, and that Russia's invasion did not progress its bid to gain membership in the Western security alliance. Therefore, larger constraints to a peace deal remain, including Kyiv's reluctance to formally recognize the loss of its territories and Kyiv's insistence that in exchange for renouncing its NATO ambitions, Ukraine must receive security guarantees of protection from the likes of the United States, United Kingdom or Turkey. These demands will hardly satisfy Russia, which is unlikely to withdraw from the Ukrainian territories it has occupied until Kyiv relents. Ukraine's Western partners may be reluctant to guarantee Ukraine's security for fear that it would put their own national security at risk.

On March 7, Ukrainian delegation member Davyd Arakhamia said that while movement on Ukrainian neutrality was possible, it would be almost impossible for Ukraine to bow to Russia's demands that Kyiv recognizes Russia's 2014 seizure of Crimea, as well as the independence of the Russian-occupied breakaway republics in eastern Ukraine's Donbas region.

On March 15, Russia's lead negotiator Vladimir Medinsky said that discussions included the Swedish or Austrian version of a demilitarized state that has its own armed forces. But Ukraine's top negotiator Mikhailo Podolyak rejected over-focusing on these models, saying talks with Moscow to end fighting should focus on ''security guarantees.''

Russian officials maintain maximalist goals, which Moscow will seek to achieve through either negotiations or the mere imitation of negotiations amid continued conquest. Statements from Russian officials implying that a deal is close could be part of an attempt to cast Russian demands as reasonable and the only obstacle to peace as Kyiv's obstinance, while in reality, Moscow will continue to regroup its forces, consolidate seized areas, and return to the offensive to further improve its negotiating position. Medinsky also said that Russia's goal for the talks is for Ukraine to become ''a friend and neighbor, with whom we will be developing relations and building a common future'' and that Moscow is seeking an agreement to last ''for the lifetime of many generations.'' This suggests that Moscow retains goals for the talks that are almost impossible for the current Ukrainian government to achieve, and for most of the Ukrainian population to accept, if Ukraine wants to remain sovereign.

On March 16, Russian President Vladimir Putin told regional governors that Russian negotiators were ready to discuss ''the neutral status of Ukraine, its demilitarization and denazification,'' which he identified as ''precisely the principal issues for Russia [and] for our future.''
On March 17, U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken said he has ''not seen any meaningful efforts by Russia to bring this war that it is perpetrating to a conclusion through diplomacy.'' Blinken also noted that he ''didn't see signs right now that Putin is prepared to stop,'' adding ''on the contrary, if you listen to, just for example, his most recent remarks yesterday, that suggests that he is moving in the opposite direction.''

As the invasion continues, Russia will face its own internal constraints against allowing the Ukrainian government to regain control over the territories it has lost, which could severely reduce the room for a peace deal. Putin is unlikely to give up his long-term strategic goals, which include bringing Ukraine into Russia's sphere of influence via political control and the country's demilitarization. A peace deal could merely serve as a strategic pause for these goals to be completed in later months or years after Moscow accuses Kyiv of violating the agreement. As Russian casualties continue to mount in the war against Ukraine, Putin will also feel intense pressure to show that the continued loss of Russian soldiers has brought concrete gains for Russia. On the ground, developments suggest that Russia is moving forward with attempts to establish pro-Russian regional regimes in places like the Kherson and Zaporizhia regions, creating a land bridge from the Donbas to Crimea, that will oppose the Ukrainian government. In addition, Russia is reportedly increasing the number of troops in Ukraine following three weeks of heavy fighting that resulted in significant Russian casualties. Social media reports showed Russian forces from Russia's eastern, central and southern military districts heading toward Ukraine. Russia is deploying reserves from as far as Armenia and South Ossetia in Georgia to create new units from the remnants of units lost early on in the invasion. These troop movements suggest that Russia could be using negotiations to appear reasonable and assemble reinforcements before escalating its attempts to control Ukrainian territory. Russian forces are unlikely to depart Ukraine before Moscow secures a deal that addresses all of its security demands, including Ukrainian neutrality and recognition of Crimea as Russian and the Donbas region as independent, as this would be an embarrassment for Putin not perceived to be worth the large human and economic price Russia has already paid for the war. Therefore, Putin is likely to continue investing resources until he achieves these goals one way or another.

On the evening of March 16, for the first time, the U.S. Pentagon assessed that Russia is sending ''replacement troops'' to backfill for combat losses. These fresh forces will likely be pushed into frontline battle roles, while depleted units that have taken greater manpower and equipment losses will move to roles such as logistics protection and occupation.


Crafty_Dog

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Putin lays out demands
« Reply #498 on: March 20, 2022, 01:57:16 PM »
Putin Lays Out Two ‘Most Difficult’ Demands of Ukraine Amid Ceasefire Talks: Report
By Allen Zhong March 19, 2022 Updated: March 20, 2022biggersmaller Print
Russian President Vladimir Putin laid out several demands for Ukraine including two “most difficult issues” during a phone call with Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan.

The demands can be divided into two parts, Turkish presidential spokesperson Ibrahim Kalin told several media outlets.

The first four articles appear to be possible common ground for both sides.

“Basically, there are six topics discussed. The first is Ukraine’s neutrality, that is, its withdrawal from NATO membership. Second, disarmament and mutual security guarantees in the context of the Austrian model. Third, [is] the process that the Russian side refers to as ‘de-Nazification.’ Fourth, removing obstacles to the widespread use of Russian in Ukraine,” he told Turkish newspaper Hurriyet in an interview published on Saturday.

Epoch Times Photo
Ukrainian and Russian officials pose prior to talks in Belarus’s Brest region on March 7, 2022. (Maxim Guchek/BELTA/AFP via Getty Images)
Some progress has been made in the above four topics; however, it’s too early to say there is potentially a full agreement that could be reached because there are two other “most difficult issues.”

Putin put forward two territory-related demands.

Putin would require Ukraine to recognize Russia’s annexation of Crimea, and admit the independence of the Donbas, a disputed region in southeastern Ukraine.

Putin recognized the independence of the so-called Donetsk People’s Republic and Luhansk People’s Republic, two separatist territories in the Donbas, days before he ordered a full invasion of Ukraine.

Putin reportedly told Erdogan he would hold talks with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky personally about the territory-related issues if the two sides reached common ground on the first four areas.

The Epoch Times reached out to the Ukrainian government and the Russian government for comments.

zelensky
In this image from video provided by the Ukrainian Presidential Press Office and posted on Facebook, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky speaks from Kyiv, Ukraine, on March 16, 2022. (Ukrainian Presidential Press Office via AP)
Zelensky has been asking Putin to talk with him directly after the war broke out. He proposed again on Saturday that the disputes between Russia and Ukraine be solved through “meaningful” talks.

“Negotiations on peace, on security for us, for Ukraine—meaningful, fair, and without delay—are the only chance for Russia to reduce the damage from its own mistakes,” he said in a statement.

He also warned that the war would cause huge losses to Russia if the two sides don’t reach a timely end to the war.

“Otherwise, Russia’s losses will be so huge that several generations will not be enough to rebound,” he said.

Epoch Times Photo
Ukrainian refugees prepare to board a train to Poland at the train station in Lviv, Ukraine, on March 18, 2022. (Charlotte Cuthbertson/The Epoch Times)
Putin ordered a full-scale invasion of Ukraine on Feb. 24 after the efforts to deter war failed.

The United Nations said that, as of March 19, they had recorded 847 deaths and 1,399 injuries of civilians in Ukraine because of Russia’s military action against Ukraine, mostly caused by shelling and airstrikes.

However, the U.N. believes that the actual figures are “considerably higher.”

Over 3.3 million people have fled Ukraine since the war began, United Nations data show.

Crafty_Dog

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Russians "deport" thousands
« Reply #499 on: March 20, 2022, 02:18:30 PM »
Second:

Will they ever be seen again?


https://www.theepochtimes.com/live-updates-zelensky-says-it-is-time-for-meaningful-talks-with-moscow_4347981.html?utm_source=News&utm_campaign=breaking-2022-03-19-3&utm_medium=email&est=4d7oKq9EFUz3GpxXLRL%2FC3tybNaI384ljDkhhcLo%2FEDicMz6aqwvFEBqLyWMnSA8mpP1

The latest on the Russia–Ukraine crisis, March 19. Click here for updates from March 18.

Mariupol Says Russia Forcefully Deported Thousands of Its People
The city council of Ukraine’s Mariupol said Russian forces forcefully deported several thousand people from the besieged city last week, after Russia had spoken of “refugees” arriving from the strategic port.

“Over the past week, several thousand Mariupol residents were deported onto the Russian territory,” the council said in a statement on its Telegram channel late on Saturday.

“The occupiers illegally took people from the Livoberezhniy district and from the shelter in the sports club building, where more than a thousand people (mostly women and children) were hiding from the constant bombing.”

The Epoch Times could not independently verify the claims.

« Last Edit: March 20, 2022, 02:21:01 PM by Crafty_Dog »